Re: Ford vs Chevy Build-up
 

From the looks of it right now Brian it appears I could do both without touching the engine...I'll let you know how it goes. Convertor will be here tm. Those O2 sensor bungs turned inwards are a little wacky...will see how that works out.

Re: Ford vs Chevy Build-up
 

You guys were correct about the header interference. Got the car up on the lift this morning and it was apparent the trans will not go in with the headers attached. Loosely bolted maybe...we will see.

Re: Ford vs Chevy Build-up
 

With the Camaro back together I got to spend some time on the Mustang this afternoon. Installing the transmission required removing the header bolts on the driver-side and header left in place. The passenger-side was removed completely. Trans went up easily enough, but it was soon apparent the AOD bellhousing bolts were too long for use with the C4...cut-off wheel made quick work of shortening the six bolts.

I had a purpose built crossmember for C4 in a Foxbody install, but there was no way it was going to bolt up easily. Even with all the adjustment leeway the mounting pad was still going to require major gouging to get it to bolt to the tailshaft. It was at this point I realized this particular crossmember was designed to bolt solidly to the tailshaft without any rubber/poly mount at all...not going there.

Took the factory crossmember and cut the four tack welds loose on the cups then slid the main body forward on the cups...essentially all the way forward instead of the factory rearward position. Installed a poly mount on the tailshaft and the modified factory crossmember bolted right up like it was intended.

Driveshaft length looks good as is. No way to access the flexplate teeth to utilize my turning wrench so I will have to unbolt the crank pulley and install my socket adapter to rotate the engine for convertor bolt installation. Starter bolted up and I should be able to affix the cables to the solenoid from above before re-installing the passenger header.

Re: Ford vs Chevy Build-up
 

Very near to firing it for the first time guys. Some minor wiring to finish up in the engine bay and at the fuel cell.

http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/q...psj5rklmhr.jpg

http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/q...psjtbzzn0v.jpg

Re: Ford vs Chevy Build-up
 

Looks very neat and clean, Rich. I like the headers a lot. I've busted more knuckles than I have on hard lines under the hood for brakes and would love to go to braided SS like you have. Any trouble with that setup?

Dale

Re: Ford vs Chevy Build-up
 

I havent driven the car yet Dale, but I don't anticipate any problems with the brake system.

Re: Ford vs Chevy Build-up
 

Engine was fired today for the first time. Had a water leak from a block drain to contend with right off the bat...also the doubled valve cover gaskets leaked badly. I will bond/swap them out in the morning for some cork replacements.

Had to re-stab the distributor one time to bring it in time...speaking of timing, I need to learn how to program this Anderson PMS controller. I'm thinking the distributor needs to be zeroed and use the PMS to advance. Will load what info I have on hand into a laptop and take it with me tm.

The engine has a healthy snarl and snappy response...hope it won't take long to dial it in.

Re: Ford vs Chevy Build-up
 

set base timing to 10 degrees. pms adds 15 to make it 25. any more you want you add from the hand held controller.

Re: Ford vs Chevy Build-up
 

Can't seem to get it to idle clean. With the TPS at idle spec it will not idle on it's own at all...have to feather the throttle. I can get it to hold an idle by screwing in the throttle body butterfly adjuster, but then the TPS is open about 2 percent.

Running a MAF sensor calibrated for 24 pound injectors. It's running way rich at idle, but can't seem to take away enough fuel to lean it down. Regulator currently set at 40psi.

Also found the alternator is not charging...don't know if that is having any effect or not. Looking for some wiring schematics right now to troubleshoot that problem.

Re: Ford vs Chevy Build-up
 

Got the skinny on my problems with the engine from Brian. I need to run a manifold vacuum line to the regulator...currently at 40psi, the computer thinks the engine is at WOT at all times therefore the rich idle. I also need to re-install the deleted IAC valve on the throttle body so it can get more air than what is allowed thru the butterfly alone. Timing.procedure was already in place and not part of the problem. I did find a loose connection on the starter relay which may explain the lack of charging...will see on the next fire-up.

Re: Ford vs Chevy Build-up
 

Oh no you didn't mention the IAC valve in public?

Re: Ford vs Chevy Build-up
 

Sorry Harry...not sure I understand the question.

Re: Ford vs Chevy Build-up
 

It's sort of like getting creative with leaky carb gaskets back in the day to increase air flow. The Idle Air Control is a 1/2" controllable air leak.

Re: Ford vs Chevy Build-up
 

Yes, Brian told me by taking it off the engine I introduced more problems into the mix...don't need any more of those lol. I'm headed to the shop right now to test the changes.

Re: Ford vs Chevy Build-up
 

Ok guys...I'm open to any and all suggestions. I made the changes suggested in relation to a vacuum line connected to the regulator and re-installed the IAC motor, but have made no progress. The vacuum line did not lower the pressure at all at idle rpm, but it will start and idle for a minute then seemingly load up with fuel until it dies. I even tried lowering the fuel pressure to 30psi with no improvement in idle quality.

Adjustments in the PMS controller do not seem to have any effect as far as pulling fuel away at idle. TPS voltage is correct and shows it at idle position in the controller screen. 73mm MAF w/24 pound calibration tube, factory throttle body, EGR deleted and 24 pound injectors. All fuel lines are -6 AN. The injectors were purchased used and I assume they are 24 pound units...I have no clue if all are working as intended or if any are faulty.

Using this regulator... http://aeromotiveinc.com/products-pa...***-regulator/

A diagram of how I plumbed the system...

http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/q...pswtyutpyp.jpg

Hoping someone might pick out something I have done wrong or anything amiss.

Re: Ford vs Chevy Build-up
 

Well Rich here goes- I don't know about this controller you have or ford efi for that matter BUT. Onthe lT 1 s that I have built and worked on we plumbed the line from the pump to one end of the fuel rail and ran a line from the other end to the regulator then the return from the regulator to the fuel cell. I am thinking this your problem. EFI is different that carburation. I bet if look on those fancy fuel rails they have an fittings on both ends. Us one for inlet and the other to the regulator.

Re: Ford vs Chevy Build-up
 

Not sure I understand. How does the regulator lower the pressure to the injectors if the rails see the pump pressure before it connects to the regulator?

Is this what you are describing? Is adjusting the pressure at the regulator returning fuel to the cell at a rate to match what is shown on the gauge?

http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/q...psm4lniugb.jpg

Re: Ford vs Chevy Build-up
 

What color are the injectors?
19lb. injectors have tan tops.
24lb. injectors have blue tops.
42lb.injectors have green tops.

Re: Ford vs Chevy Build-up
 

I'm pretty sure they are blue Mitch. Is the way I have the system currently plumbed completely wrong? Would it cause a rich running condition which I could not compensate for? I had read somewhere the way it is currently set up it might lead to a lean condition on #5 and #6 cylinders under certain circumstances, but that was with very high hp applications.

http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/q...pses12tlsy.jpg

Re: Ford vs Chevy Build-up
 

I haven't ever run my fuel system that way so i have no experience with a setup like that. The factory fuel system with a little larger pump is capable of supporting a pretty good amount of HP on it's own. My setup was about 325hp so the factory style setup works fine for me. Sorry I can't help you more.

Re: Ford vs Chevy Build-up
 

Here you go Rich. Copied straight from Aeromotives website.


Unlike a standard or “dead-head” carburetor regulator, which controls pressure between itself and the carburetor by stopping flow, the bypass regulator controls pressure between itself and the pump by bypassing flow. The optimum EFI regulator location is after the fuel rail(s) when possible. All pump flow, minus engine consumption, must always run to the regulator, wherever it is. Putting it after the fuel rail means all fuel must run through the fuel rail, and over the injector inlet, at all times. This ensures full flow is available to the injector in any instant. Most Aeromotive EFI regulators have two inlet ports, one on each side, and one bypass port, on the bottom. Either inlet may be used with a single fuel rail engine, both inlets with dual fuel rail engines. Any unused inlet ports must be blocked with the appropriate port plug. The ideal flow-path is: out of the fuel pump, into one end of the rail; out the other end of the rail, into the regulator side port(s); out the regulator bottom (return) port, back to the top of the tank. Dual rail applications should employ a Y-block to split the supply line before entering the rails, then individual lines are run from the opposite end of each rail into each inlet port on the regulator.

Re: Ford vs Chevy Build-up
 

Even though the regulator is AFTER the injectors in the fuel system in that configuration, the injectors are not seeing FULL pump pressure/ flow. The regulator is still allowing excess pressure/ flow back to return to the tank even though it is located beyond the injectors. The only way the injectors would see full pump pressure/ flow in this setup is if the regulator was completely closed off not allowing excess pressure/ flow to dump back into the tank. Basically dead heading at the regulator.

Re: Ford vs Chevy Build-up
 

Back to basic EFI checks:

EFI injector wiring to correct cylinders/hopefully not ,modified? This is a SEFI engine if using stock processor and injector wiring /injector firing order must remain stock to proper injector in proper cyl at proper time.

Is Baro wired in? No baro = no altitude calculation . With key on signal wire should put out around 159 hz depending on you weather baro and altitude. Should be able to see on scan tool or programmer.

ECT reading ok? IAT Reading OK? If engine sits overnight ,,,,,both should read close to ambient temp

TP around 1 V at idle.

I'd confirm all baseline readings first/.maybe take programmer off and check running with stock processor. They are more adaptable than you think.

Re: Ford vs Chevy Build-up
 

x2

Re: Ford vs Chevy Build-up
 

First step will be to connect the regulator correctly, as shown in the 2nd drawing you made. Then you can adjust fuel pressure.

Re: Ford vs Chevy Build-up
 

Check the connection to O2 sensors. There's a connection from the harness near the passenger side strut tower. Disconnect it, clean the inside well, make sure the connectors clamp tightly and reconnect using dielectric grease. Do the same where the wires terminate at each O2 sensor.

I have a convertible street car with heads, cam, etc. I had the same problem that you are describing. By chance, some kid told me about those connectors and that it's not uncommon for them to get corroded, preventing the O2's from looping back to the computer. I cleaned them up, put in the dielectric grease and the problem went away.

I use a moates quarterhorse to tune the engine. When you programmed the computer, did you change the variable for injector size to 24 lbs.?

Re: Ford vs Chevy Build-up
 

As long as the Mass Air Flow is correctly calibrated for 24 lb injectors, there is no tuning change required to make it run. Fine tuning, however is a different story. Checking the connectors, and all of the grounds is always a good idea, if still needed after fuel lines are corrected.

Re: Ford vs Chevy Build-up
 

Thanks to all for the replies!

First off, the Aeromotive recommended fuel diagram. I have seen it and it would be a horrendous maze to plumb...I can however easily modify to the second diagram I posted if it would be preferred to my current plumbing.

O2 sensors - I have the factory O2 sensor connected on the passenger side and a aftermarket wide band on the driver side. By not having the other narrow band connected is that causing a problem?

I think I know what the "Baro" is and it is located in about the stock location on the firewall...yes it is still hooked up. I think it is what you can see in the upper right corner in the image here...

http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/q...pshcs633bm.jpg

TP voltage is correct. Not completely familiar yet with all the efi terminology...ECT and IAT? (Ok, IAT = intake air temp)

I had a damaged injector harness originally and bought a good used harness. I guess it could happen and I will re-check, but it appears near impossible to get the wiring wrong due to the length of the injector connector pigtails. I'll go back today and check again on all these tips and make needed changes.

Here is a link to the PMS controller if anyone cares to look at it... http://www.mediafire.com/view/u2ptoj..._IV_7-2004.pdf

Re: Ford vs Chevy Build-up
 

ECT= Engine Coolant Temp. Connectors only plug one way on Ford harnesses. Hook up both o2 sensors and move the wideband to a new location. The 2nd diagram you made will work. Fuel from pump to rails, from rails to inlet on regulator, bypass from regulator to tank. Once you get fuel pressure to where you can adjust it, you can drop it a couple of pounds. Car should run fairly clean without the PMS if everything else is correct. As stated earlier, the factory ECM on a Fox Mustang is fairly adaptable on it's own. The PMS just allows for fine tuning and raising the rpm limit.

Re: Ford vs Chevy Build-up
 

ECT - I assume that would require a sensor which is no longer on the engine lol. I'm betting it screwed into a port in the lower intake on the driver side...you saying I must have it for the engine to run properly? Is this the sensor here? Can it be installed in the intake instead of that tubing?

http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/q...ps1fesnfjt.jpg

http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/q...psfpmqnnwy.jpg

Not having both factory O2 sensors hooked up is causing problems I am experiencing? I guess my basic question now is what is the minimum amount of changes I can get away with right now. The PMS can control everything over 2000rpm...all I need is to get it to run/idle cleanly atm.

Re: Ford vs Chevy Build-up
 

Rich looks like you created some of your own problems should be easy to fix with some time. I believe you o2 sensors are daisy chained together in the wiring so if one is not plugged in the other one will not work. Some of the years of cars are wired differently on this circuit. if you are missing the engine coolant sensor you will have problems, your after start enrichment table is like a choke will not change your fuel going to the motor as it warms up. Have not used the system you are working with just the stock computer with a chip. hope this helps. good luck

Re: Ford vs Chevy Build-up
 

That sensor in the pic is the coolant temp sensor for the computer. There is a second temp sensor that is for the gauge in the dash (normally goes in the drivers side front of the intake and has a small "stud" sticking out of the top for the gauge hookup). You can eliminate that coolant tube if you like and put the sensor right into the intake.

Re: Ford vs Chevy Build-up
 

Put the ECT sensor in the intake where the heater tube came out of. The o2 sensors are not causing the current issue by themselves, but will cause tons of other tuning issues.
So,
Reroute fuel
Add ECT sensor
Add o2 sensor


Should correct the issues, possibly have to lower fuel pressure a little, but maybe not, every engine is different.

Re: Ford vs Chevy Build-up
 

You need both hooked up for the factory EEC. Not sure on the aftermarket setups.

Re: Ford vs Chevy Build-up
 

Ok guys - I will re-plumb the fuel system to mimic the second diagram, add the coolant sensor and install the other factory O2 sensor. If that corrects the current problem I'll add another bung for the wideband sensor. I will try to make some screenshots of the controller readings.

Re: Ford vs Chevy Build-up
 

with the pms , you can tune and run it without 02s. I haven't had them in my car for 4-5 years.

Re: Ford vs Chevy Build-up
 

Somehow I got it starting/running smoothly atm. Extended the harness for the temp sensor and installed it directly in the lower intake. I can see it registering in the PMS controller now. Both factory O2 sensors installed, but I have yet to see any readings on the PMS screen. Not sure if the MAP sensor is functioning. I don't know how to tell if the IAC is fuctioning or not. 12 degrees locked in with the spout connector out, then plugged back in.

I'll have to order a fitting for the fuel rail before re-plumbing the system. Idles around 1350rpm and does not stall when shifted into gear. I will need to get a weld-on bung fitting so I can re-install the wideband O2.

While waiting for fittings I need to figure out why the new alternator has no output.

http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/q...ps8ouaknly.jpg

http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/q...pshon3fpu3.jpg

Re: Ford vs Chevy Build-up
 

While I'm not familiar with the screen output on that scanner, seen plenty others. Is that the IAT reading -30' ? Is it hooked up yet ? The first pic shows the engine @ 980RPM (i think), A heated O2 sensor (3 or 4 wire) should be showing voltage fairly quickly. 170' is more than enough time. Will that PMS let you lock out different inputs ?

Re: Ford vs Chevy Build-up
 

Yep,

I agree with Dave...Looks like Intake Air Temp is way off at -30 .....that will make it way rich. Usually default is -40 when they are unhooked but check for the open plug. IAT sensor looks like your coolant sensor except the end is not sealed with brass, it has a thermistor exposed to get air temp. Should be screwed into #5 intake port or you can move it into the intake upper plenum by using one of the plugs located on the underside of the intake. O2s are not used in the base calculations for fuel..they are more like trimmers when the system is warm and in closed loop so they are not players on initial starts. I'm curious about the -29HG ..is that the.baro reading? Usually that is just expressed as a positive #

Basics to get it running TP, ECT, IAT, BARO, Fuel Pressure, base timing. Looks like you are getting closer!

Re: Ford vs Chevy Build-up
 

Do the one-wire mod to the alternator. It's cheap to do, more reliable and safer. You will be able to diagnose any alternator problem very quickly.