Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

http://classracer.com/classforum/sho...9&postcount=20

http://classracer.com/classforum/sho...&postcount=286

So, was that 4-door Lemans ever built ? Was there a build thread for it ?

Never mind, I found it. There was a build thread. But it ended before the car was finished. He was planning a 2-barrel 350.

http://classracer.com/classforum/showthread.php?t=49597

Here's what I found in the last post. That kinda seals the deal for NOT running a Pontiac 350, with one of the small 2-barrels.

"Originally Posted by Danny Ashley View Post
Back in the late 80's when I had my 1974 GTO I considered the 2-bbl. because that body was a one engine combination for a 4-bbl. I obtained a manifold and carburetor and knowing that the late W.A.Lee worked on 2-bbl's, I sent it to him. He called me up and said they had tried it already and that the carb was too small and it would slow the car one and a half seconds. I had looked at Allen Peters at the time and made my decision off him but W.A. informed me that the '69 Chevy had a much larger venturi. He didn't want to do it because he felt I was wasting my time and sent it back. I really didn't think it would kill it that much so I decided to try it anyway.
It was in the fall and we had decent air but nothing like I had just ran at the Keystones where I was no.1 qualifier and ran 11.97 in L/SA which was really quick for that time. The car at that time with the 2 bbl. was P/SA and the index was an odd number for some reason of 13.54. My first pass was 13.53 followed by a 13.52. The car had no power. I had to almost floor it to do a burnout. I came back and installed the 4-bbl. set-up which is quick to do on a Pontiac and went right back up and went 12.22. I'll admit that the car could go quicker with maybe more gear, smaller headers, cam change, etc. but it didn't look worth the time and money to flogg it out especially when the 4bbl. was so good.
One last thought. Please don't base the 2bbl. combination off of Bill Rink's car. Bill is a good friend and carburetor customer and I can tell you that his engine is a "Top Shelf" Parson & Meyers piece as is everything else on the car. Definitely not a "Dime Rocket". Just a "Rocket" in it's day."

Seems that the only way to run a 350 or larger Pontiac engine with a 2-barrel is to get NHRA to lower the index for the car to a reasonable level. So, basically, it's Q-jet, or not at all.

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

Never thought about anybody racing with a Dualjet. Have you had an opportunity to get one working right, for racing ? Are there lots of Stockers running a Dualjet, nowadays ?

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

I think that the 1K car ran OK for what it was. I never really spent the time to completely sort it out.
The only dualjet combo that I know of running right now would be the 267 Chevys.

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

Just got an Email back from the Butlers. They don't do Stocker engine builds either.

They recommend Mike McKinney, in Indiana. I know that Mike did a lot of racing with Pontiacs. Didn't know he was building Stocker engines for others. Found his FB page, & sent a friend request. Not much posted there, so he may not even use it. His son Marty is on my friends list. But, I've posted & ask him a question. There has been no reply & nothing posted on his page since.

So, anybody have contact info for Mike ?

I found a couple of pics. One shows Mike driving the Hard Times '68 Bird that was Truman Fields' car that he won the '73 US Nats with. Mike then won the '77 US Nats with it. The pic shows the car at the Gators. It was an article in a 1979 newspaper. It said that Mike had won a race in '77. I assume they were referring to that US Nats win. But, I'm not sure. So, did Mike also win the Gators one year ?

The other pic I found is of a For Sale ad for Truman Fields' Hard Times Bird. Says it was a D/S record holder, which would run 11.50's. price $3500.

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

Don, If you notice, the 2 bbl hp was last lowered in 2002. Many decades after Don Himes' 74 wagon. Also a few years after Danny's experiment. I would guess that someone with a 4 bbl car, had enough of that combo, after Bill Rink got through with it.
They will now run Q/SA and down.
An all out 2 bbl. combo will take a different gear, converter, headers, camshaft, and a different tune up.
With today's technology and available goodies, plus the fact that they've got Ray Charles checking carburetors now, I 'd say a Q/SA Ventura would go at least .5 under. I know it would with a stick.
Not a rocket ship, but should be easy to build, and fairly cheap ( in perspective, that is)

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

I think that is me in the GTO

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

Welcome to the Class Racer forum ! :)

You may think this sounds really strange, coming from someone you don't know. But you can't imagine how glad I am that you joined & posted !!! :)

I have LOTS of questions about the cars & racing you & Gary did back in the old days. You were among my earliest Pontiac heroes, along with Truman Fields, Jack Mullins & a few others.

I've posted pics of ya'll & your cars on LOTS of Pontiac forums & FB pages, thru the years.

Before I bombard you with questions, first I'd like to ask if it's OK ??? :confused:

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

Wow ! So you think somebody ran a 2-barrel '74 Vent, and got NHRA to lower the hp factor. Any idea who that might have been, & how quick they ran ?

I also came up with some more 2-barrel questions. On the Class Racer Info site, the listings for the earlier model Pontiacs list the carb number or numbers, but there are no numbers given for the Venturi size.

So, can somebody here look up those numbers & determine what the venturi size was on 'em ?

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...8&MAKE=Pontiac

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...5&MAKE=Pontiac

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...6&MAKE=Pontiac

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...4&MAKE=Pontiac

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...5&MAKE=Pontiac

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...1&MAKE=Pontiac

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...2&MAKE=Pontiac

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...4&MAKE=Pontiac

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...6&MAKE=Pontiac

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...px?ENGINE=2057

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...4&MAKE=Pontiac

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...5&MAKE=Pontiac

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...2&MAKE=Pontiac

OK. The '74-'76's have one of the 1.25 Venturi carbs, on a 400 engine. The '74 can also use the same #46 heads as the '74 350 engines used. So, might this engine have potential, if you could get the hp factor down some ?

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...6&MAKE=Pontiac

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...8&MAKE=Pontiac

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...5&MAKE=Pontiac

The '74 can also be used in a Bird, as well as the A-bodies & most of the heavier bodies. So, how about this engine in a base model '74 Bird ?

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...px?ENGINE=2086

It obviously wouldn't work at 255hp, since the Q-jet version is only 275hp. Question: How much would the 1.25V 2-barrel slow this engine down, from the Q-jet version, with both built to equal levels ?

At 225hp, a Bird could add a little weight & run P/SA, with a 13.45 index. So, anybody think a '74 1.25V 2-barrel 400 could run 13.45 or quicker ?

http://www.classracerinfo.com/NHRA_Classes.aspx

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

Another question:

I just noticed that the auto trans version of the '68 350 2-barrel engine, came with the 2-speed ST-300 trans.

(1) Under current rules, could you run a Glide in this combo ?

(3) Could you run a 3-speed auto, like a TH350 ?

Sorry, I'm just not up on all the rules. Makes sense that you'd have to keep the same number of speeds.

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

OK, the nat event schedule gets cranked up today, at the Pomona Winter Nats.

Every year at this time, I think about the Pontiac powered cars that did good there, back in the early '60's. In '62, Mickey Thompson's 421SD powered A/FX Tempest won the class, with Hayden Proffitt driving.

And I've mentioned that Carol Cox became the 1st female to win a class, at a nat event, winning the S/SA class.

A '63 Tempest won the A/FX class in '63. Not sure of all the other Pontiac wins back in those days. As mentioned, I've read that in those early days, the A/FX & S/SA classes ran in "Top Stock". But, the class was called SS, by some, even back in those early days.

"... Factory Experimental Pontiac Tempests.

The first one appeared in 1962 at the NHRA Winternationals, built at Mickey Thompson’s shop in Long Beach, CA, by Hayden
Proffitt and Lloyd Cox. It was a standard 4-cylinder Pontiac Tempest Le Mans, now fitted with a 421 Super Duty engine and
transmission out of one of Mickey Thompson’s Super Stock cars (legal Super Stock engines were an NHRA requirement at the time). The stock Tempest rear swing-axle was replaced by a Pontiac Catalina rear end. In short, it was a 1962 Pontiac Super Stocker in a compact Tempest body/chassis. It dominated the A/FX class at the 1962 NHRA Winternationals.

What worked well in the FX class in 1962, built by independent racers, would work just as well in 1963, built by the factory and distributed to the favored Pontiac racers around the country. Whereas the full size Catalina sedans had a 119 inch wheelbase, the Pontiac Tempest was built on a much smaller (and lighter) 112 inch wheelbase.

A total of twelve Pontiac Tempest A/FX cars were built, all with the 421 Super Duty engines. Six were Tempest coupes and six were Tempest station wagons. All the factory cars were delivered with a special rear-mounted trans-axle set up but many of the racers eventually switched to the standard engine-mounted transmissions and the Catalina rear axle assembly..."

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

Qualifying begins today.

https://www.nhra.com/schedule/2020/n...nals-presented

According to the pre-entry list, looks like there are only 3 Pontiac powered Stockers entered. Randi Lyn Shipp. Brad Burton, & Leo Glasbrenner.

https://www.nhraeventreg.com/ListEve...=PC1&cc=8&rn=1

Brad & Leo are also entered in SS. Lindy Lindholm is entered, with his '74 Bird. But it was stolen. So I don't reckin he'll have it there. Looks like a max of 5 Pontiacs, total.

https://www.nhraeventreg.com/ListEve...=PC1&cc=7&rn=1

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

All 2 speed transmission only combo’s can be replaced with 3 speeds.

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

Thanks for the info Todd ! :)

Hey Richie Hoffman recommended you as a possible Pontiac Stocker engine builder. I know you stay busy racing. Do you also build Pontiac Stocker engines for others ?

If not, who would you recommend, up in the div 1 area ? For that matter, could you give us some other names, in any part of the country who build 'em, and who you'd trust to build one for you. I'm not talkin about as a personal favor to you, buy rather those who would build one for most anybody.

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

I'd really prefer not to repeat most of what I post here.

BUT, I know how posts can get buried in a thread, and some will never go back & see 'em.

AND, this is something I'd really like some opinions on, from those who may know, or be a position to give a real world, experienced opinion about.

It concerns the 1974 2-barrel 400 engine. It uses the 1.25V carb, & the #46 heads, with 88.9cc chambers.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...6&MAKE=Pontiac

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...7&MAKE=Pontiac

(1) NHRA weight for a base '74 Bird is 3545. A Formy is only slightly more. At the current 255hp factor, you could add a little weight & run M/SA, with a 12.85 index. I don't think a 2-barrel 400 could run that quick. But, I don't know.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...px?ENGINE=2087

http://www.classracerinfo.com/NHRA_Classes.aspx

(2) It has been posted, & most here know that you can many times get NHRA to lower the hp factor on some combos that have not been flogged much, or at all. IF you could get them to lower this factor to 225hp, the Birds could run P/SA, with a 13.45 index.

So, the question is, how quick could this combo go ? Do ya'll think low 13's are possible ?

That 225hp number is 50hp less than the '74 Q-jet 400. Does a 225hp factor seem reasonable to ya'll ?

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...9&MAKE=Pontiac

Even a bit lower might be reasonable. I say this, because the 1970 350 Chevy 2-barrel engine is 224hp, compared to the 290hp factor for the Q-jet version. That's a 66hp drop. And the 2-barrel is a 1.375V model.

So, if you dropped say 65hp from the Q-jet 400, you have a 210hp factor.

Just exactly what do ya'll think this combo could run, & how much do you think someone could get NHRA to lower the factor ?

I know a lot of ya'll have been familiar with the NHRA hp factoring system for a long time. So, I'd like your opinon on this.

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

Just ran across this pic. I'm posting it because it's just sort of a rare Stocker. It's not that the car itself was rare. But I just don't remember seeing many of these big Pontiacs, from that time period, on the track. And this looks to have been a serious Stocker.

It has "Walton's Mountain" on the front fender.

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

That’s Bruce Walton. He had a 74 GTO later.

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

Ever since the 302/2V FFFord "accidental gift", the only way that you can get HP back on a combo is to build it and run it. If it goes slow enough either by design or intent, it will get HP off. The 20+ Hp that you're looking to get off would take you 6-8-10 years. You'd better get busy.

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

Thanks for that info !

I'm not building a Stocker. There is only bracket racing in my area. I have a bracket car I'm workin on.

I'm just trying to come up with all the info I can about past & present Pontiac Stockers. In that, I'm trying to come up with all the possible competitive combos. Just thought this one MIGHT have potential. But, I don't have any experience running 2-barrel carbs, except on dirt tracks. So, I have no idea how quick any particular Pontiac 2-barrel combo could go.

From what you say, it would be taking a BIG chance to build a 2-barrel Pontiac, not knowing whether it would even run the index. And not knowing when or IF, NHRA would reduce the hp.

I suppose the only way to experiment, might be to build an engine that used the same shortblock & heads, for both the 2 & 4-barrel versions, if such an engine exists.

Anyhow, at least for now, I'll forget about 2-barrel Pontiacs. Most competitive combos have a Q-jet.

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

At the Winter Nats:

In Stock, Randi Lyn was #25, with an .887 under, 10.663. Brad Burton was #33, with an .844 under, 10.706. They're both running D/SA.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...er=30#indextop

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

Nobody ever said that you couldn't bracket race a Stocker!
Build a "Stocker type" motor, put it in your bracket car and experiment to your heart's content.

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

Yeah, that's a great idea.

I could at least get a ball park figure of how much a 2-barrel would slow the car down, vs the Q-jet.

I had a '71 2-barrel 455, out of a wagon. But I sold it. I've got a friend with a shop & yard full of Pontiacs, I'll see if he has any 2-barrels that look rebuildable.

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

Found a little more info.

Lloyd Cox won the S/SA class at Indy, in '61. I assume it was the same car that his wife Carol drove the next year, to S/SA wins at Pomona & Indy.

In '62, Lloyd won SS/SA at the Winter Nats. Hayden Proffitt also won the SS/S class, as well as the already mentioned A/FX class. And Jess Tyree won the S/S class. Don Bennett won A/SA.

I'll remind ya'll once again, at that time, all these classes were considered "Top Stock", NOT Super Stock.

At Indy, Dick Jesse was RU to Lloyd Cox, in A/FX. In S/S, Arlen Vanke won & Bob Harrop was RU. Ralph Hardt won A/SA.

At the '63 Winter Nats, Bill Shrewsberry won A/FX. Think I posted a pic but didn't know the name. Lloyd Cox won B/SA, which I assume was in the Junior Stock class.

At Indy, Jim Wangers won B/FX, in a Royal Pontiac Swiss cheese Cat. Bill Abraham won A/SA. All these cars had either 389 or 421 Pontiac power.

'63 was the year Mopar jumped into drag racing big time. And many of the Pontiacs were not allowed to run in some of the lower classes, because not enuff of the SD cars had been sold. So, Mopar began to dominate many classes. Most all here are very familiar with the 413's, & the 426 Wedge & Hemi cars. In my humble & biased opinion, some of those Mopars were some of the ugliest quick cars ever on a drag strip. But, to Mopar fans, I'm sure they did & still do look good. :)

In '64, Don Gay won A/S at the Winters & at Indy. Mopars & 427 Fords won everything else, above A/S. Don't know about the lower classes in Junior Stock. Haven't found a source for that info yet.

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

And here's a little more. These are the class winners at the '71 Indy race.

The guy posting said he had to guess at some of the cars. Anyhow, it shows that Truman Fields won D/S, in his '68 Bird, & Arnie Toftland
won I/SA in a '71 Lemans.

NHRA Junior Stock

In '65, Leroy Stutzman picked right where Don Gay had left off in '64, winning the A/S class.

NHRA Junior Stock

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

Just ran across this. Can't verify.

The caption under the pic says that Mary Ann Foss was the 1st female to hold a nat record. It was for top speed. D/SA is on her '58 Pontiac, in the pic. Also painted on her car is that she was a class winner at the 1964 Indy race. :cool:

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

Here are the NHRA Stock records, as of April '65.

Several Pontiacs on the list. Jess Tyree held the A/S record. Ronnie Broadhead held the the C/S record, in a 389 Cat. Pontiacs also picked up the D/SA & E/SA records.

NHRA Junior Stock

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

The car in the 1st 2 pics was driven by Ronnie Broadhead. He was Stock Champ, broke the record 3 times, & won class at Indy, all in the same year.

Some of the other cars were record holders & class winners.

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

At the Winter Nats, Brad & Randi Lyn both survived Stock E-1.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...er=30#indextop

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

Here's a list of Stock class winners at the '62 Indy race. 6 are Pontiac powered.

NHRA Junior Stock

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

Found a few more pics.

The first 2 are nat record holders. The next is a stick wagon.

Then there are 2 B/S GTO's with lady drivers. Don't know if it was for the "Powder Puff" race, or not. Back in the old days, I never ran across many stick cars with lady drivers. Not that they can't. It's just that they didn't, at the tracks we raced. But hey, there are lady truck drivers who shift gears for
a living, driving 18-wheelers.

The '56, with the wild paint job, I posted because the pic was taken at Green Valley. It was a famous track in the D/FW area. It's more than 200 miles from us. But we raced there 3 times. Twice in '77 & once in '78. They held the div 4 bracket finals there in '77 & '78. Have probably posted it earlier in the thread, but our 1st race there, in '77 is the race from which TJ got a little ink in the Nov issue of Hot Rod mag. She'd drove a '68 E/SA Bird in '75. Then all our local tracks switched to brackets, therefore we did too.

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

At the '60 Nats in Detroit, Jim Wangers won his class & Frank Barnett won A/SA. I think Jim won overall "Mr. Stock Elimunator".

NHRA Junior Stock

At the '61 Winter Nats, Allen Hart won D/S, & Bob Battelle won C/SA.

NHRA Junior Stock

At the '67 Spring Nats, Pontiac won A/SA & E/SA.

NHRA Junior Stock

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

Here's a nat record list at the end of the 1970 season. Rod Kister had the top speed record for H/S, in a '70 Pontiac. Borcherdt & Stealy had the ET record for E/SA, in a '69 Pontiac. So, does anybody know which bodies these cars were, or any other info about either car ?

NHRA Junior Stock

OK, found info on the '69. It's "Rocky's Goat", that has been mentioned here. Apparently Fred Borcherdt was the main man involved in the car's performance.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9X...VZaE1RM1k/view

http://www.classracer.com/classforum...5&postcount=23

This post says the '70 Rod Kister car was the "Big Iron II" car.

https://www.highdefforum.com/1178416-post1682.html

Says that Rod was div 5 champ, and that the car was the 1st in it's class to run under 12.00. I can't verify that. But that list I posted a link to, show his name as setting the record in H/S. Don't think any RA3 or RA4 engine car ever ran that low of a class. So, maybe it was a different car.

https://www.mecum.com/lots/SC0511-107356/

Here's some pics of it in restored condition. Don't know how close that was to how it looked, as raced, back in 1970. That was the only year Rod raced it. Only pics i remember finding of a "Big Iron" GTO, was of a '69.

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...65&postcount=2

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

How 'bout a Bill Jenkins prepared E/SA '63 Pontiac ?

NHRA Junior Stock

Here's an '07 magazine article about the early SD program. I couldn't make the pages big enuff to read. But some here probably know how to do that.

NHRA Junior Stock

NHRA Junior Stock

NHRA Junior Stock

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

Here's a story about the Arnie Beswick prepared "Jolly Green Giant" '65 GTO.

https://eastcoastdragtimeshalloffame...a-clutch-play/

Not sure why the name. Only green I see us the lettering. Maybe he just liked the ad.

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

We've all probably noticed how lots of Pontiac drag cars, from the old days, had names associated in some way with Native Americans. Here are a few of those cars.

https://itstillruns.com/did-pontiac-...e-5694601.html

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

Then there were lots of Pontiac car names which had nothing to do with Native Americans. Below are just a few of those.

Then there are all the others we've seen here, such as Black Gold, Big Iron, Kathy's Clown, Super Sleeper, Git-Go, Hard Times, Tons-a-Fun, and so many more.

Then some guys just like their name on the door.

I suppose some dealers insisted that their dealer name be on the doors.

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

Found this list of '63 Nats class winners. Several Pontiacs on the list, including Don Gay in A/S & Bill Abraham in A/SA. Pontiacs also picked up D/SA, F/SA, & C/S.

NHRA Junior Stock

If you click enuff, you can make the list big enuff to read. You have to click the arrow in the top RH corner, then click on the list.

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

Pontiacs picked up the A/SA & E/SA classes at the '67 Spring Nats. The E/SA car also won Stock Elim at that race. :)

NHRA Junior Stock

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

At the start of the '66 season, Pontiacs held several nat records, including A/S, C/S, & D/SA.

NHRA Junior Stock

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

At the '64 Winter Nats, Pontiacs won A/S, D/SA, E/SA, & I/SA.

NHRA Junior Stock

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

Here's the entry list for the '65 Winter Nats. There were lots of Pontiacs on the list.

NHRA Junior Stock