Re: Ford vs Chevy Build-up
 

Exactly. I would find it very hard to believe that your divisional tech director would say it has to go.

Re: Ford vs Chevy Build-up
 

If I had one on hand I would put it on to see what the difference is. I'm sure it will be fine for tomorrow. Thinking I will just let Kenny run it in the Combo if he wants to...I'll make fuel adjustments as needed. I have my high-tech data recorder on charge...going to mount the Go-Pro on the crossbar and point it at the afr gauge hehe. :o

Re: Ford vs Chevy Build-up
 

Without a doubt. The car will be fine. But it's worth having down the road.

If you can tig and have a bender, you could just make a cross bar out of chromoly and be done with it. It'll cost you $15 in materials and about an hour to make. .

Have fun today. It should run good.

Re: Ford vs Chevy Build-up
 

The lowering puts the camber adjustment range out of reach. That's why slotting the mounting holes works.
As to bracing, the car moves whether or not it's lowered. I'm not following you as to how bracing it will get the camber back.

Re: Ford vs Chevy Build-up
 

I've got three fox bodies. A coupe, a hatchback and convertible. Only the convertible has camber problems from not having a steel roof.

The car is in excellent condition. 50,000 miles, never been hit.

When I went to paint, the doors on both sides of the car had to be bent in to get them realigned. Even with caster/camber plate (camber at full slot), couldn't get the camber even close.

The strut towers have moved inward, because of the lack of support. Push them out with a brace and camber returns. Even with a brace, caster/camber plates are usually needed if the car has been lowered.

Re: Ford vs Chevy Build-up
 

I just installed a set of H&R Sport Springs on my 85GT. I also have the Maximum Motorsports strut tower brace and Team Z camber/ caster plates. The alignment shop got it in spec but it took them a little while I guess.

Re: Ford vs Chevy Build-up
 

One would think after all these years a used brace would be floating around somewhere for sale, but I have not run across it yet.

Well. I'm off to the shop to get everything loaded up...wish me luck!

Re: Ford vs Chevy Build-up
 

Good news is both cars avoided being on the bottom of the ladder...bad news is they both suck.

http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/q...psqqmjkrgy.jpg

I made the first qualifying pass in the Mustang and knew right away it was going to be awful. Eyeballing the afr gauge for much of the run I could see it was in the 11.8 range nearly all the way down. My GoPro camera confirmed it after the fact. Could only muster a 13.60 on a 13.00 index.

http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/q...psdl7o6wig.jpg

I took some fuel away at WOT with the controller before handing the car off to Kenny. It responded on the second qualifying pass with a 13.32...a step in the right direction at least. Kenny reported the afr gauge reading 14.0 before the stripe so I was stumped at what to do with it next.

http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/q...psgt4sffxo.jpg

Just before first round I gave it just a touch more fuel back in all the cells previously entered as well as taking away 2 degrees timing from 3500 to 6500rpm. Kenny and I both went red first round and the Mustang went 13.34 with the changes. I'm going to have to work with the fuel/timing on this engine...really need some type of recorder to nail it down.

There is also a serious bind in the rear-end which is definitely working against forward motion. I will pull it apart tm to see whats up there. Not the best outing for sure, but hey...there were no parts scattered on the track at least.

Re: Ford vs Chevy Build-up
 

Take heart, man. You're within .30 of the index with a car you built yourself having no experience with the brand. That's nothing to be ashamed of.

You also identified problems with A/F and rear end bind, which once fixed will almost surely bring you under the index. You need to watch what the converter is doing and figure shift points. Got a playback tach? Also, did you scale the car?

While not .80 under first time out as most new cars aren't, you'll probably be 30-.50 by the end of the month if you bring it out every weekend and keep working it one change at a time.

I was wondering about how things went all day and pretty sure others have too. I think you did pretty good.

Re: Ford vs Chevy Build-up
 

I also was anxious this morning to see how things went. Thanks for keeping us updated.

Re: Ford vs Chevy Build-up
 

Thanks for clearing that up for me. Makes perfect sense.

I agree with the others, Rich. The can ran well. Everything is still intact. You're not far away. As they say, "If it were easy, everyone would be doing it".

Re: Ford vs Chevy Build-up
 

very nice for the first time out with it. if you can take it to a chassis dyno you can tune it easier. if someone sits in the passenger side and reads the screen while you do the run on the dyno run it goes a lot faster. congrats and good luck!!

Re: Ford vs Chevy Build-up
 

Rich, Why were you running the car in N, if I might ask?
Natural O car that makes P.
How much did it weigh?

Re: Ford vs Chevy Build-up
 

Thanks to all for the support...I'm headed out the door in a few minutes to go tear into that rear-end.

Mark - The car was light last night as I expected it would be...3165 pounds. Running it in N we were 123 pounds light...O would have been 230 pounds shy. Had I known what the car was going to do I could have run it in P and at least been able to run the index lol!

Re: Ford vs Chevy Build-up
 

Wow. Did you put any kind of ballast or weight box into it?
My 1980 HB was 300 # light when I got it done. I had done the research and built a permanent 100# into it before I even started bolting weight in.
I would recommend at least O/SA with it.
Of course a lot of your data from last night would be skewed by adding that much weight.
But then ,if you weren't making any power anyway, due to electronics, maybe not.
I'd say tune the computer first, then put the weight in it for O, then start over.

Re: Ford vs Chevy Build-up
 

Had no clue what the weight was until I scaled it at the track. Now that I know I can build ballast boxes...probably carry a heavy spare wheel/tire to boot.

Disassembled the rear-end today and found nothing terribly wrong. Ring/pinion is smooth and easy...with rotor/pads bolted up it requires a little more effort to turn. Surprisingly the greatest resistance to movement is from the driveshaft. Even removed from the pinion flange it is strangely difficult to turn in the normal rotation...fairly easy turning backwards (trans in neutral). I believe the vibration I felt on the first pass was simply the solid upper control arms in the torque boxes (no bushings).

I'll do some more tuning on it, but I fear the engine might not be capable of producing the required hp in it's current state...we shall see.

Re: Ford vs Chevy Build-up
 

I figure about 280 hp would put you .2 under in O.
1 hp per cube isn't really too hard with a Stocker cam.

Those cars will go mid 14's through the mufflers with 3.73's and stock converter, AOD
with 200 ,000 miles on them.

Re: Ford vs Chevy Build-up
 

Yes, I was surprised how poorly it ran the first pass until I returned to the pits to review my...ahem...recording. Perhaps I will get a handle on it soon.

https://youtu.be/VwK5kXvd-Fc

http://vid434.photobucket.com/albums...psdijd3mza.mp4

Re: Ford vs Chevy Build-up
 

Something is wrong with that driveshaft, I would say. Check your pinion angle.May need more neg. to get enough on the front...Just guessing from here.
Converter goes right to 5 grand? Sounds about right ..for starting point.

Re: Ford vs Chevy Build-up
 

What do you have for a first gear in that trans?

Re: Ford vs Chevy Build-up
 

Its a Dynamic C4 with a 2.90 gearset. Convertor is a Dynamic Race 8 with mech diode.

Re: Ford vs Chevy Build-up
 

Rich, driveshafts can bind if the u-joints 'break' out of phase..... -Al

Re: Ford vs Chevy Build-up
 

But that bind would exist regardless of rotation direction, right?

Re: Ford vs Chevy Build-up
 

I would think so, Rich. May be worth it to change the pinion angle at the front (both ways) and see if the binding gets better/worse.

Re: Ford vs Chevy Build-up
 

When I had the drive shaft loose from the pinion and holding it aligned with the front the resistance was felt rotating only in one direction and was constant...about half as much the other direction. Not near as free as the Camaro/metric trans for sure. I'll admit I may be ghost hunting here hehe.

Re: Ford vs Chevy Build-up
 

Call Dynamic. Band adjustment, maybe?

Re: Ford vs Chevy Build-up
 

C-4 output shaft turning effort higher in one direction than the other is normal.. there is less turning effort when the rear one way roller is overrunning..... higher effort when the rollers are holding and the gear sets are turning.

Re: Ford vs Chevy Build-up
 

The AODE that I re-built acted the same way. good job so far Rich.

Re: Ford vs Chevy Build-up
 

Rich,

Lean that tune up to around 13-13.2 and watch it pick up a ton!

Re: Ford vs Chevy Build-up
 

Brian - The second pass (handed off to Kenny) he reported 14.0ish before he crossed the stripe. I did not have the camera in the car that pass and took him at his word...was afraid to lean it any further at that juncture. I'm pretty sure it's still a sour air/fuel ratio problem which I will have to get a handle on.

After Alan brought up the drive shaft phasing I began to doubt myself and took a look at it again today...all looks good as far as I can tell. I'll re-check pinion angles again. Car is on a lift with the rear fully extended in the pics, thus the extreme angle at the pinion.

http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/q...psbnu8p54f.jpg

http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/q...pstsmimnoa.jpg

Junk shots under the car...

http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/q...pslwjxhray.jpg

http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/q...psdr2ci9th.jpg

http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/q...psy95w3cbq.jpg

http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/q...psvutg1qtp.jpg

Had some popping going on at cold start initially...figured it was lean at idle and WB confirmed. Gave it a little more fuel at that point and calmed it down. I'm wondering if I should just remove the piggyback for now and let the wideband O2 sensor tell me what to do via fuel pressure adjustment.

Re: Ford vs Chevy Build-up
 

http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/q...psbnu8p54f.jpg

Is it an illusion, or has the u-joint moved? It looks like it's not fully seated to the end of the bore on that yoke (bottom bore in this picture).

Re: Ford vs Chevy Build-up
 

I'll look at it close today, but if you view the rear it has about the same appearance.

Edit : U-joints are fine.

Re: Ford vs Chevy Build-up
 

Failing to find anything of significance thus far I feel its time for a large move to test for effect. I have either missed the mark on the engine assembly or the fuel events are way off. Thinking of removing the aftermarket controller and letting the factory ecu do it's thing...I can adjust the fuel pressure and monitor the wide band O2 readings.

Re: Ford vs Chevy Build-up
 

Don't do that. You'll hit the rev limiter, and not be happy.

It's your first time out. Leak the motor and adjust the valves, then bring it to test and tune. Make 10 hits, make one change at a time, and log the changes.

It sounds a bit sluggish out of the hole. You may need to give it more timing. Let the engine and trans find their way. Don't be afraid to lower the shift points. What did you install the cam at?

Most importantly, talk to John Pressing. He went 11.50 in L/S I believe 10 years ago in one of those cars. There are lots of guys with good experience on this board, but from my point of view John's the guy you want to talk to.

Re: Ford vs Chevy Build-up
 

Working my way from back to front I found an interesting item today. My TPS sensor is only registering a maximum of 92 percent WOT. Rounded a new one up and will test it tm...if that knocks another 3 tenths off it will be the best $35 I have spent in awhile.

http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/q...psvua3pptm.jpg

http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/q...psldee0rk2.jpg

Re: Ford vs Chevy Build-up
 

No joy with the new TPS sensor...best I can achieve is 94% throttle. Must be a voltage thing and I don't know how I would allow/adjust for that. There is a variance scale screen in the handheld for TPS set-up, but I have not been able to get it to move one way or another.

Re: Ford vs Chevy Build-up
 

When you move the sensor on it's adjustment screws, it doesn't change on your multimeter? Also, what is your multmeter reading with the throttle closed?

Re: Ford vs Chevy Build-up
 

The PMS controller has a screen for TPS set-up and the main screen shows percentage of TPS travel from idle to 100%. I can take the sensor off the throttle body and rotate the axle full sweep and it will only read 94% WOT.

Did a compression and leakdown test on all cylinders today...I'm satisfied with the results. These figures were on a stone cold engine btw.

http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/q...pswhorccoz.jpg

Took the night off from work so I could go to the track and try to make something happen. Turned out to be a wasted effort as it spun the tires badly every pass. I thought these DOT radials would be ok for initial testing, but I now see it is going to require a set of slicks.

http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/q...ps5ntj9dgk.jpg

Re: Ford vs Chevy Build-up
 

Set the TPS first , and make certain it is giving out the correct readings on a multimeter, then make the changes with the PMS. Since it's easier to paste and copy, I took this straight from Anderson's website.
To start off with lets set the throttle position sensor, so the PMS is on the right load tables
Warm the car up to operating temperature (180-198) do this with a drive. Don’t just let it sit and idle. Set your base idle (with the idle motor unplugged) at 850-900 rpm with the throttle screw.
Now shut the car off, turn key to on position and check your T.P. sensor voltage with a volt meter. Take that voltage ( lets say it is 1.04 volts) and go into the PMS option to TPS voltage and set idle voltage to 1.06. Now turn off key and turn it back on. It should say idle now on the data screen. If not readjust voltage numbers till it does. Next put throttle pedal to the floor and make sure PMS says WOT in data screen. If not adjust WOT T.P. sensor voltage until it does. This gets the PMS in sinc with the load table.

Re: Ford vs Chevy Build-up
 

I'll have to recheck voltages today, but I do have the TPS adjusted where it says idle on the data screen. How does one adjust voltage for WOT?

Interesting article on the subject here... http://www.w8ji.com/mustang_throttle...ion_sensor.htm