Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

Anybody have any info on this car ? Appears to be E/SA #3425, with OLSON on the door.

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

If the numbers on the Live Timing site are correct, a Pontiac powered car was #1 on the Q-3 list. The car is Rick Unterseh's 301T Bird. Ryan & John Schloe have Pontiacs in the #20 & #32 positions.

https://www.nhra.com/results/2020/lu...ock-eliminator

Now, I have a question for you guys who know. I have always been VERY confused about what will get a combo NHRA hp & what won't.

I've read that 1.20 sec under, will get automatic hp, but only at certain races. At other races you can go as quick as you want, without getting hp. Then there is the "mine shaft" situation.

I think this 1st race of the doubleheader is a National Open. Don't know how that plays in.

So, without trying to explain every detail of the entire system, somebody please tell me if the cars in this race that went 1.20 & more under will get automatic hp, & if not, why ?

Thanks !

http://www.nhraracer.com/content/gen...633&zoneid=132

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

They will NOT get HP because Natl. Opens don't count towards the AHFS.

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

Ditto, but thanks for the link.
A turbo car at altitude, with no penalty..hmmm ;-)

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

THANKS for the quick reply guys ! :)

Next question.

I'm real interested in Ryan Schloe's car. He was once claiming a '71 Bird, with a #66 head 455.

Lots of guys on some of the Pontiac forums really badmouth those #66 heads. But since Ryan ran below 11.50 with his #66 head 455, maybe they're not that bad.

I know that Adam Davis' '71 Bird was switched over to a '73, so it could run a 4X head 455. At Indy 2017, he was #74 @ 1.023 under.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCStory.asp?ID=331361

Most all the numbers look better for the '73 4X head 455. Especially the 306hp factor. Means Ryan can run a lighter car.

Just did some checking. It seems that Ryan switched over to the 4X head '73, a few years back. Best ET I could find was an 11.04. So, if he hasn't dipped into the 10's yet, he's come close.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCStory.asp?ID=349366

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

Well, this DRC list answers some of my questions.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...er=30#indextop

(1) Apparently the live timing numbers were bogus. Rick Unterseh was NOT the #1 qualifier, & only one car ran 1.20 under, IF the DRC numbers are correct.

Does anybody know how the live timing numbers can be so wrong, so often ?

(2) DRC clearly shows that Ryan Schloe is claiming a '73 Bird now. So, he's running a 4X head 455, which has much better numbers than the #66 head '71 455 engine.

The DRC list also shows that Ryan was #18 @ .950 under. Same ET as on the live timing list. So, MAYBE live timing had his numbers correct.

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

Stock is usually out first. Tech cards may not be turned in yet. The computer has a long, and sometimes faulty memory.

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

Well, since the live timing info is not reliable, at all sometimes, I almost hesitate to post any of their info.

But, when there is no online live streaming, & DRC won't have any results 'til late night, I suppose live timing is about the only source there is, for the latest race results.

With all that in mind, live timing is showing that all 3 Pontiacs I mentioned lost in the 1st round of Stock elims. :(

That's the bad news. The good news is that apparently another Pontiac joined the party, for the 4th qualifying round, this morning. The driver's name is C.W. Hoefer. He has(or at least had) the '73 4X head 455 powered Formula, that I mentioned, which belonged to Adam Davis.

https://www.nhra.com/results/2020/lu...ock-eliminator

IF C.W. is indeed driving that '73 Bird, he had the only Pontiac powered car to survive Stock E-1.

https://www.nhra.com/results/2020/lu...ock-eliminator

One additional note from Q-4 is that IF the numbers for Ryan Schloe are correct, he ran a little quicker, going .969 under, in his '73 Bird.

Right now, the only other car I can think of that ran this engine is the '73 Formy owned by Michael Brand. Michael even pulled off a holeshot F/SA class win @ Indy.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2016#indextop

But, last season he ran the SD455 engine, and moved the car from F/SA to D/SA.

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

Wow, what a blast from the past!
The car is a 1972 455HO that I built and raced until the cost of a competitive stocker became too much for my budget. I used to race with Truman D. Fields when he was located in Reading, Ohio and helped him turn the firebird that was traded to him by Roy and Mike McKinney into the stocker that went faster than the one he sold them. When Truman moved, I started building the 72 Bird for E/SA with a lot of help from Tom Ellison / Ellison Engine Service. The car is long gone now, as it was sold to a Pontiac guy here in town. I still race today, but that is with a 1986 Firebird built for super gas and as you can guess it's power is a big 455 Pontiac with HO heads. It was nice to see the old car and I will have to see if i can find any of my old racing pictures that I can post.

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

WOW ! What a great Pontiac story !!! :)

THANKS for sharing that !

And please do share all the old Pontiac racing pics you have. Truman was my 1st Pontiac hero, after he won the US Nats, back in '73.

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

Here's the Q-list from DRC, for the AZ race. Ryan Schloe finished #19. C.W., John, & Rick were #39, #40, & #41.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...er=30#indextop

Just watched the last round of Stock qualifying, at the div 4 race, on Drag Racer TV. Only Pontiac I saw was driven by Wayne Larsen. I think it's a '77 Lemans. I have it listed under Jack Larsen. I assume the 2 are kin. Jack is also entered in this race, driving another brand car.

I labeled the pic Wayne Larsen, for this post. But it still had Jack's div 3 number on it. But, Wayne was definitely driving this same car today. Pretty easy to tell by the checkered flag paint job on the sides. IIRC, he was running N/SA, & ran a 12.24 on a 13.00 index. So, he was .760 under.

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

Well, at the div 4 race, another Pontiac sneaked in on me. Logan Galbraith came down, from Indy, with his '74 Grand Am. It is the former Don Turk car. Logan won some races with it, last year.

He qualified #23 Fri, @ .980 under. Wayne was #36, @ .873 under.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...UMMIT#indextop

Logan won the N/SA class, with an 11.943, on the 13.00 index. Wayne was RU in the class.

After Sat qualifying, Logan is #13 @ 1.042 under, & Wayne is #44 @ .873 under.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r=100#indextop

Both cars lost in E-1. :( Wayne cut a great light, then screwed up the finish. Logan cut a slow light, then never had a chance.

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

At the div 7 race in Tucson, Brad Burton Joined the party, with his '72 Bird. There are now 5 Pontiac powered Stockers entered. Ryan Schloe is #2 @ .993 under, & C.W. Hoefer is #3 @ .991 under.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...er=30#indextop

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

Finally got time to start lookin for Pontiac info the the Junior Stock book I was given. Some of the cars & info, I was already aware of. But, there is some info that is new to me.

So, I'll go thru the book slowly & point out some of the Pontiac info in it. Those here, who have a copy, can check & see if what I'm posting is correct.

The 1st Pontiac I'll mention is the win that Jim Wangers got, at the '60 Nats. It's on P-13. For that win, he was declared "Mr. Stock Eliminator".

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

On P-14, the 7-11 Packer Pontiac is mentioned. The caption for the pic of that car explains how some of the big Pontiacs were shipped with a 348hp engine under the hood, but had lots of upgrade parts in the trunk, with which a guy could build his motor to run at 368hp.

They say that car was totaled in a towing accident, in '62, but not before scoring a class RU, at the '62 Nats, running 12.90's.

Apparently Packer sponsored several big Pontiacs back in the early '60's. Here's one with 7-16 on it. The 2nd pic is of a recreation of that car that was totaled.

https://www.hemmings.com/blog/2007/1...gstrips-again/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3MGyCs4zXEM

The 3rd pic looks to be a recreation or rstoration of a later year model, with 7-11 on it. The 4th pic is of a silver '63 Cat. Don't know how accurate these cars are to a car that was actually raced. Also don't know if some are actually a restoration of the original race car.

This article says the silver "Swiss Cheese" car set a C/S nat record in '63, @ 12.27.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/drive...ction/9658243/

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

That same page of the book also mentions some other Pontiac class winners from that year. It says that Hayden Proffitt got an OS/S class win at the Nats, running a 12.55, in a Mickey Thompson Pontiac. Not real sure which car that was. But I'll see if I can find out.

Also mentions that Lloyd Cox won the S/SA class. Pretty sure I mentioned this one. I think he also won the class @ the Winter Nats that year. The next year, his wife Carol won the auto class at both races. Haven't seen her named mentioned, in the book, yet.

Although there are no names on the car, in the 1st 2 pics, I think this is Hayden Proffitt & the M/T car he drove at the '61 Indy race. If I'm wrong, somebody can correct it, & post the correct info.

Just thought I'd better mention this again, for those who may not have seen it earlier, or may not know. In the early '60's, these cars were not considered "Super Stock" cars, as we know 'em. A/SA & above, including FX, ran in what was called "Top Stock". Lower classed cars later became known as the "Junior Stock " class. That's why I'm listing these cars in the Stockers thread.

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

Well, after reading the book's coverage of the 1962 season, I'm real disappointed. Hey, it was a big year for Pontiac. The M/T A/FX Tempest won the class, at the Winter Nats & @ Indy. No mention of that. Carol Cox also won the S/SA class at both races. Since she is said to be the 1st female to win class at a nat event, looks like it would have deserved a mention.

The book mentions her name, by saying that a Chevy beat her, & that she was driving a similar car. Not even close.

"...Don Nicholson. His Chevy defeated the similarly equipped Carol Cox car..."

https://www.nhra.com/news/2018/carol...t-class-winner

But hey, I understand how a non-Pontiac guy could find it real easy to overlook or leave out Pontiac accomplishments. I understand that this is a Junior Stock book. But, for '61 & '62, the book mentions several classes that ran Top Stock. So, why leave out the A/FX car that won at both big races ?

Hey, still a good book, with lots of info. But, as I go thru it, I'm gonna add all the Pontiac info I know, about the year in question.

The book does mention that Arlen Vanke took 3 "Tin Indian" Pontiacs to the Indy race. Says he won at least one SS class, & turned the quickest SS time, of 12.65, & the fastest, @ 113.20. Well, this leaves out a lot of details. I'll do some research & see if I can fill in some of the details. Will edit & post what I find, here.

I think it's fairly safe to say that this '62 GP was one of the cars Arlen took to Indy, in '62. It has "Tin Indian" on it. I assume that means it was the 1st Anderson Pontiac Tin Indian. The car in the 3rd pic is a '63, which has "Tin Indian III" on it. So, I don't think he could have raced it at Indy in '62. Don't think they came out that early. But, I assume Pontiac may have released a few to big name Pontiac racers, in time for Indy. Anybody know ?

So far, I can't find a "Tin Indian II" car. But, I assume there was one. So, I'll keep looking.

But, maybe all 3 cars he took were NOT Tin Indian Cars. Here's a '62 ragtop called "Black Whirlwind".

Anderson also had a couple of '63 Tempests. Looks like they ran SS @ some tracks & A/FX @ some. Also assume they wouldn't have been ready for Indy '62.

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

The book has over 4 pages of 1963 coverage. He mentions that Bill Golden won the A/FX class, @ the Winter Nats, in a '63 Pontiac, but won overall Top Stock, in a Mopar.

Well, I gotta check this out. I thought the M/T '63 Tempest won A/FX. Maybe Bill Golden was driving. That name doesn't ring a Pontiac bell for me. So, I'll do a search. Here's a quote I found in one article.

"...Tailing Mickey Thompson's sole Pontiac A/FX effort in 1962, when it had won the Winternationals and the Indy Nationals, the factory fielded several 421ci Tempest coupes in the A/FX division in 1963, as well as wagons weighted to run B/FX. There were also a handful of Catalinas built this way. These cars were so above the field in terms of potential and performance at Pomona in 1963 that the new Z11 427/425hp aluminum-panel Chevy Impalas and the lightweight Ford Galaxie fastbacks ended up in a one-race-only Limited Production class to prevent embarrassment, since the companies were lacking proof that the minimum number of 50 cars had been created for Super Stock legality..."

Can't prove this was so. Anybody know ?

Another article says that Bill Shrewsberry drove the M/T '63 Tempest to the A/FX win @ the '63 Winter Nats. Says he ran a 12.04, which was a half sec quicker than his nearest opponent. Also says that later in the year, Arnie Beswick set a new A/FX record, @ 11.89. Shortly after that, the FX class quickly morphed into a wild class, which eventually became Funny Car.

https://books.google.com/books?id=yG...record&f=false

The Junior Stock book, says that Ronnie Broadhead won the Stock points championship, in a '60 C/S Pontiac. Also won class @ Indy, with a 13.54. Also says that Ramon Lowe won the F/SA class at the Winter Nats. His '58's ran lower classes, sometimes. So, I assume he was driving his '62 GP. But I don't know for sure.

I think Jim Wangers won the the B/FX class @ Indy, in a '63 Cat. and Bill Abraham won A/SA in a '62 Pontiac GP.

So far, the Junior Stock book has some Pontiac info correct, some not, & leaves out a lot.

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

For '64, the book has 12 pages of coverage. At the Winter Nats, it says that Don Gay won A/S, with a 12.68. Says that Ramon Lowe entered 2 cars. He won D/SA with his '58 Pontiac & E/SA with his '62 GP. Also mentions that a guy named Larry Spina won the I/SA class, with a Pontiac. Not familiar with that name.

Also says that Don Gay was disqualified, @ Indy, for having "non-original-size mufflers". I've posted a pic of him as class winner. So, I don't know if he was later DQ'd, or what. Don't know if the class trophy was taken away from him, or not. Don't really know how to find out exactly what took place at Indy, in '64. Anybody know ? The book says that 9 Stockers were DQ'd.

Wayne Keeling got I/SA RU, in his daily driver '59 Pontiac. One class winner which was mentioned in the 1964 section was Mary Ann Foss. Mary Ann won D/SA & set a new nat record that year. At the time, it is said that she was the only female that held a nat record. She was driving a '58 Pontiac named "Black Magic". For the '64 Nats, the book says that the car had a 370 engine, with Tri-Power, a Jetaway trans, & 3.90 rear gears. Says she won the class, with a holeshot 14.24 ET, over a similar car, raced buy Dixon & Easley. No pic of either car, that I saw, during the '64 season coverage. I have a pic of a Lowe & Easley '58, but not a Dixon & Easley '58. Maybe that car was driven by Larry "Doc" Dixon, who drove some of the Knafel "Tin Indian" cars. Anybody know ?

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

Lots of '65 season coverage. NHRA added a couple of nat events, the Spring Nats & the World Finals. No list of class winners.

A couple of GTO's are mentioned. One is the '65 Tin Indian GTO, which I've mentioned. The book says that Knafel Pontiac cars won over 200 races, during the '60's & '70's.

It also mentions a '62 421 A/S Cat that was driven by Jess Tyree. Says the car ran 11.90's & was a frequent winner in div 7, in '65. Also held records in both NHRA & AHRA.

On page 171 of the book, begins a listing of most division points & nat event winners, from '64 thru '71. In '65, the only name I recognize as Pontiac is Jay Hamilton. In order to win the division points, I assume he had to win a div 7 race or 2, & go rounds at most of 'em. So far, I only have one pic of Jay Hamilton's '58 Pontiac.

The caption of the Mary Ann Foss pic says that she won her class at the World Finals. But, in the text, it says she was RU. Don't know which is correct.

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

Mary Ann Foss (Jackson) is Nitro Joe Jackson's (Nitro Joe's Stats) Mother.He can give you all the info on the 58' Pontiac...gsa612

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

Yeah, that would be cool, to know all the races she won with the Pontiac. As well as all records & class wins she had with it.

According to the book, after that Pontiac, she switched over to Mopar. Obviously, for this thread, I'm not interested in the Mopar stats.

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

For '66, the 1st Pontiac mentioned is Bob Chiesa's E/SA '58 Pontiac. He won class @ the Winter Nats, with a 13.84. Lost the Stock final, with a 13.83. So, I suppose that means he was RU that year.

Jay Hamilton was again the div 7 champ. He also won the World Finals that year, with a 13.66, in his E/SA '58 Pontiac.

Arlen Vanke won the Spring Nats, in his Knafel Pontiac C/S '66 GTO, with a 12.90. He also won the C/S class @ the Spring Nats, with a 12.77. That was the car that won so many trophies, and has a pic with lots of 'em sitting around on it. I've posted that pic several times. But it needs to go on this post also. There were actually 2 of those cars, with slightly different paint jobs.

Also at the Spring Nats, Harold Ramsey won M/S, with a 16.85.

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

In '67, Graham Douglas won the Winter Nats, in a '60 Pontiac wagon. He'd won the G/SA class, then set a new nat record in the event final.

Jay Hamilton won another nat event. This time it was the Spring Nats.

Another Pontiac that was mentioned was the C/SA '60 Pontiac of Ed Beyer. It said that he raced several Pontiacs. Also said he was one of the original Hurst Shifty Doctors.

The book also mentions that Gary Ledbetter won the I/SA class @ Indy, in a '56 Pontiac.

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

The book mentions several Pontiacs, in the '68 section. The 1st one was the Ron Sanders '61 Bonny wagon, which I've mentioned. Said the car set 5 nat records. One was a 13.39 in H/SA, in '68. Was RU in class @ Indy.

At the Winter Nats, Graham Douglas won the L/SA class, with a 14.35, in a Pontiac wagon.

Next one mentioned is the Ramon Lowe '58. He won the div 7 points, in '68.

Next is the Ray McLelland C/SA '62 Cat. In '68 it set the mph record @ 112.78, & won class @ the Spring Nats. He switched to D/SA for '69, & won class @ the Spring Nats again, with a 12.56. Also won class @ Indy.

The next name I don't remember ever seeing. The book spends 2 pages talkin about the Joe Perzan '60 "Big Bruiser" wagon. According to the book, Ray had set the E/SA record, in '67, @ 13.62. Says that he switched to an I/SA combo, in '68. On the nat record day, the 1st 2 time trials were both 13.49. The current record was 13.77. He didn't want to to set the new record that low, so he de-tuned the car a bit, & set the new record @ 13.67. One guy says he thinks this car was a former Bob Maxey "Clinton Shaker" wagon.

Not real sure why he included the next Pontiac, since he didn't list any times or races won. Maybe because it was so rare. He says it was one of 12 '68 1/2 Ram Air II convertibles. Says that Pete Whitehead was a body man, & rebuilt this car from a burned out hulk. Thru the years, those engines have won quite a few races, in Stock. Probably due to the round port heads & bigger legal cam. The 1st winner I remember was Truman Fields, @ the '73 US Nats. As mentioned, he was my 1st Pontiac hero.

Another Pontiac mentioned was Greg Murnane's "Limelighter" D/S '67 GTO. Says the car finished 2nd in points, in div 5, & in July, held the class record @ 12.31. Says it was one of the quickest Goats in the nation.

Another odd Pontiac mention was the yellow N/SA '59 Pontiac named "Cheet'n Cheef". Said it got the job done in South Florida, whatever that means.

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

According to the 1968 division points winners list, Rod Kister not only won the div 6 points, but was also national points champ. Don't ya'll think that would have been worthy of at least a mention, in the 1968 season text of the book ? I could have missed it. But looking back thru it, I didn't see a pic or even a mention of the name or car.

Rod Kister ran some Pontiacs named Big Iron, which I've mentioned. I have a pic of a big Pontiac & a '69 Judge, with that name on 'em. The '69 obviously couldn't have been run during the early '68 season. So, I'm not sure exactly what car, or cars, Rod was driving, in order to win the division & the overall NHRA Stock Points championship. But, I think it deserves mention !

If anybody here has more info and/or pics of the car or cars that Rod was driving during the '68 season, please post the info/pics on this thread. Thanks !

This article should clear up some of it. Says that Ron was still driving the big "Big Iron", for the '68 season. Then in '69 & '70, he ran new Judges, & set records with both.

https://www.hotrod.com/articles/hppp...ontiac-safari/

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

1/2 of the 1st page of the '69 section is devoted to the pic & caption, of the Roland Moore & Sons, "Acre Maker" '61 Pontiac, driven by Gary Moore. Gary won the div 4 points in '68. Then, a few months later, he won F/S @ the '69 Winter Nats, with a record 12.69 @ 110.50.

There were a few other Pontiacs that were mentioned. And I'll get to those. But what to me is a glaring omission is that, as far as I can see, by skimming thru the section, not one single mention is made of a '69 Judge. Only a very non-Pontiac guy would do such a thing. Love 'em or hate 'em, the Judge was a major part of Pontiac Musclecar history. And I've already mentioned some Judge record holders. Lots of Pontiac dealerships sponsored Judge Stockers. Did one ever win a nat event ? Not that I know of. But, I'm sure there were a lot of Judge winners at local tracks, all over the country. When I think of 1969, the Judge is just one of the things that comes to my mind 1st. But, I'm quite sure that Chevy, Ford, & Mopar guys don't think that way.

There were a few other big Pontiacs mentioned in the '69 section. One was a '57 model 347 F.I. powered car driven by John Thropp. The one pictured in the book is red with a white accent along the sides. Has no lettering on it, at all. The pics I have show the John Thropp driven '57 to be white with red accents. The book says the powertrain was swapped over into a more competitive body.

Over in the '70 section of the book, the author mentions the "Tiger-rific" '67 GTO. Says it ran 12.70's all during the '69 season.

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

I have a picture hanging on my wall here of my partner in our '57 Chevy sedan delivery racing Joe Perzan's Big Bruiser Pontiac wagon.

It was from 1967 at Capitol Raceway.....

There were quite a few Pontiacs racing there that day as I recall....

We raced Perzan and had to rerun him for some reason and won.....

A Bucks up Jr.Stock event from over 50 years ago !!!

Ed Beyer's '60 Pontiac was nice and he had a '56 before the '60......Saw his '56 race a number of times including at Vargo in eastern Pa. around 1966 or 1967

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

Due to the omission of Judge Stockers, in the Junior Stock book, I'll dedicate this post to the '69 Judge Stockers. Most won races and/or were nat record holders.

One is "Rocky's Goat". The 1st pic of it is from a '69 newspaper article, showing that it beat John Thropp, in an all Pontiac final. I love those.

Then there is the '69 "Big Iron" I mentioned.

Then the "Nemisis" '69 that was totaled in a towing accident.

Then there is the Nunzi sponsored '69 Judge. I don't know exactly what years all these cars were raced. But, most of the Pontiac dealer sponsored cars were raced during the same model year they were new.

https://www.hemmings.com/blog/articl...ram-air-iv-x2/

This video is just for kicks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMZu7aukiBI

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

For 1970, there were some rule changes, which did away with many of the bogus combos some '55-'57 Chevy models were running. This also affected some older Pontiac models. The '61 & earlier Pontiacs could no longer run the over-the-counter parts, that didn't come in factory built cars.

The book mentions a '70 400 Powered Firebird Formula, named "Viking". Said it had a Chevy 12-bolt rear, with a Pontiac part number. I can vouch for this. I used the 12-bolt out of one of these '70 Formula 400's, in the '71 Bird bracket car we raced for several years. I think this was a 1-year only rear end, in the Birds. They switched over to the GM 8.5" rear, in the '71 Birds.

That Viking name tripped something in my memory. So I looked back thru some of my pics, & found one of a '70 Judge, named Viking. Appears to be built by the same guy. It was sponsored by the Schoon Pontiac dealership, in MN.

The book also shows a pic of a '66 GTO, which it says was making another 12-sec pass. The author said that GTO's drag strip popularity did not equal their street popularity. IMO, that could probably be said of all the popular mass produced Musclecars. The % of those used on the street, probably far outnumbered the % of 'em that were made into competitive Stock or SS cars.

There have obviously been lots of '70 model Pontiacs raced, thru the years. Don't know how many were raced during the 1970 season. Lower budget, independent racers, sometimes had to wait 'til they could find a good price on a used Goat or Bird. Didn't take long, back then. A 100,000 mile GTO was just a worn out used car, that had probably been abused, that hardly anybody wanted.

Obviously, there are a few rare models that were made with drag racing in mind. The Ford Thunderbolts come to mind. And I'm sure you guys can think of a few others. Mopar really built some bad cars, beginning with the 413 & 426 Wedge cars, then the 426 Hemi cars, & 440 6-pack cars. Then there were the high power solid lifter BBC models.

But, there were LOTS of GTO's being raced, all over the country, especially at the local tracks. Guessing there were lots of '66 Tri-Power GTO's that did very good at local tracks. Then, beginning in '67, with the 400 engine, the TH400 trans, & the Q-jet carb, the Goats & Birds became competitive, in some of the auto-trans classes.

Then, came the round port RAII engines for '68. Then RAIII & RAIV in '69 & '70. There was also a high CR 455 GTO engine in '70. Then in '71, came the 455HO engines. Those 455HO engines have won LOTS of races thru the years, & are still winning.

But, I suppose for many non-Pontiac guys, it's real easy to just dismiss Pontiacs, from class racing, especially since no Pontiac V8 has been built since '81, and the Pontiac brand disappeared after 2009.

But hey, there are still competitive Pontiacs out there. Hope they all do good, this year. :)

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

A scan thru the '71 section of the book revealed the the mention of only 1 Pontiac. It is a '63 wagon, which ran R/S.

He quoted the driver, Bob Williams, as saying that at one of the tracks they ran on a regular basis, Quaker City, the track ran uphill. Since they didn't have a line-lock, they had to block a rear tire, after staging, to prevent the car from rolling backwards, out of the beams.

Said the car was RU @ Indy that year, in R/S.

But, the 455HO engine was available in '71 Birds & A-bodies. Nobody can make me believe that there were not quite a few 455HO cars bought, strictly for drag racing. Probably quite a few Pontiac dealerships, as well as individual racers campaigned a 455HO powered car.

I'll post examples I have. Again, I can't always say exactly what season these cars began racing. I've heard of several cars that were raced by a dealer maybe only one season, then by others, after that.

The '71 T-37 is the 1st model that comes to mind. But the 455HO was available in T-37, Lemans, & GTO models.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...px?ENGINE=2060

The most famous one that I can think of right now is Rock Running's "Super Sleeper". I've already mentioned this & maybe all these cars I'll post pics of on this post. The White Bros, Ken Shawver, & Jack McCormack all ran one. We all know how some race cars changed hands a lot. So, I don't know exactly who was the 1st to race any of these cars.

As mentioned, Mick Leiferman ran a '71 GTO, was RU @ Indy 3 years straight, & was a nat record holder for 5 years straight, beginning in '73. Don't know exactly what year the car first began racing. The pic I have shows it in H/SA.

Have a pic of the White Bros '71 Formy, running H/SA, & a Towne Pontiac '71 Formy running H/S. Also have pics of Gary Moore & Max Sterling in H/S '71 Birds.

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

The Towne Pontiac ( John Dubois) Firebird was a 455/335 hp ram air car.

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When running in the H/S class ?

So, what class would a 400 engine have run ?

That would mean that those T-37's would have had to have been a lot lighter than the Formy. BUT, according to the Class Racer Info site, a '71 Formy, with a 455HO engine is actually a few lbs lighter than a T-37. My calculator just won't come up with numbers that will make a lighter car run a lower class, using the same engine.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...px?ENGINE=2060

So, does that mean that back in the early '70's that engine was rated with less hp than the same engine in an A-body ??? :confused: That's the only thing I can think of that would make the same weight cars run several classes apart, running the same engine.

I remember that back when we 1st started, the 330hp Bird engine, was basically the same as the 350hp GTO engine. Maybe it was the same for the Birds & A-bodies, in '71. Anybody know what the 455HO engine was rated, in a '71 Bird & a '71 A-body, back in 1971 ?

If anybody has some classification info from back then, that might clarify this, please post that info.

Also thought about this. There is not much difference in the hp rating of the '71 400 & the '71 D-port 455. So, I suppose both engines could have possibly run the same class ??? I remember that Gary Wood said they did just as good with a '72 D-port 455, as they had with the '72 455HO. But, we've discussed that the '71 #66 heads don't make as much power as the '72 & '73 D-port 455 heads.

By the way, I was just about to add a couple of pics to the '71 post. Lyndel Warren bought a Bird from Gary Moore. They built it as a '71 455HO Formula. He worked for Coke, so he named the car "Coke Machine". It ran E/SA, & was the quickest E/SA car at the Winter Nats. He said it had run 11.79, during that time period. This was sometime in the mid '70's I think. Maybe NHRA gave the engine a big hp increase, in a Bird, during the '70's ???

I don't have access to that info. I assume there may be a few long time racers here who do still have access to a lot of the NHRA info from back in the '70's.

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Today @ the Baby Gators, Adam Strang qualified #15 @ .892 under. Wayne Larsen was #56, @ .655 under, in a 94 car field.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...er=30#indextop

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Just watched Adam Strang win the Stick Combo class, with a 10.376 ! :)

Don't know if that's the all time low ET for the car, or not.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...er=30#indextop

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OK, for you guys who were around back then, I need some help with this driver & 2 cars. In this article I linked, it mentions that after Chuck White passed away in '76, the White Bros quit racing. It mentions that Bill Kissinger raced their GTO clone, thru '79, then later raced a RAIV '70 T/A, into the mid-'80's. Not familiar with the driver or the Bird. Can anybody provide more info ? :confused:

http://www.tarheeltigers.org/1971-t-...class-car.html

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In searching for info on Bill Kissinger, I found this qualifying list, from 2004.

http://www.mustangsandmore.com/ubb/F...ML/008275.html

There are two '78 Birds listed. One driver is Dave Edwards. The other is Michael Moyer. Anybody know about these cars/drivers ?

Dave Edwards was listed as being from Washington Court House, OH, which I never heard of. He is listed as racing a '78 T/A, in I/SA.

http://sportsman.nhra.com/2004/sport...inesville.html

He was also #34 @ Indy that year. Dave Batta was #31, in a '78 Firebird.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2004#indextop

I've run across a lot of '77 Bird Stockers, but not near as many '78's. So, anybody know the history of any of these '78's ?

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Bill Kissinger had an Olds Cutlass

Dave Edwards bought his from Bob Michael. Bob sold his second 78 to Don Holmes

Dave Batta had my old car..the Pontiac Magazine project car. I sold it to Dean Ribiero, who sold it to Dave. He might still have it.
I built a 78 car so I could use the 78-79 big cam motor with a stick, for J and K/Stock.

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(1) Not familiar with the "Pontiac Magazine project car". Any online info about it, which somebody could link ?

(2) Anybody have info and/or pics about any races, class wins, or nat records any of these cars might have picked up ?

(3) The main Pontiac stick cars I know of, in modern times, are the Adam Strang cars.

Back in the '60's & '70's, there were lots of Pontiac stick cars. I've read that Truman Fields continued to a run a stick in his '68 Bird, on up into the modern era, then Todd Hoven ran it as a stick car, for a little while. So, what were some of the other Pontiac stick cars, on up into the '90's, maybe ?

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Well, I was quite sure you never bought a High Performance Pontiac Magazine (LOL) but I thought you might have read it down at the Krogers..

1994-1998... Four class wins, two r/u's, two National Records, one Divisional runner-up.
Won two BOP or Pontiac races.

I never looked on the 'net. I have the magazines.
Keep digging...

https://i.postimg.cc/zGP12XGZ/02-10-...2-34-45-PM.jpguploading pictures