Re: Ford vs Chevy Build-up
 

Beech Bend Sat./Sun. Combo 6, 7 June 2015 -

Thinking I was on the right track with a tune for the Mustang finally I took the horse to Bowling Green this weekend. Found I could not have been further from the mark even if I had just set fire to the car. It would not even approach the index despite all my efforts.

It has become clear I have no clue what needs to be done with this efi so I intend to take it to a local chassis dyno and let some experienced folks get it at least in the ballpark.

Its a shame I was unable to get it going my way because I'm really comfortable in the car and I can kill the tree with it. I was paired with Kenny Shindller Saturday night for first round and I just flatly advised him what was going on...of course he won the round and went on to runner-up that night.

Sunday morning I tried some drastic changes for effect, but no better. Went to find who I was paired with for first round on the ladder and dadgummit it was Kenny again lol! We had a good laugh in the staging lanes about it and I told him I was probably his lucky charm for the weekend and it would be another repeat of last night's race. Before we loaded into our cars I told him not to redlight because I was ready to go home, but I intended to be either red or drill the tree on him. All other problems aside I did my job this weekend...just didnt have much to work with. My best and worst lights of the weekend, both first round races...

http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/q...psn1ifrxgr.jpg

Re: Ford vs Chevy Build-up
 

Don't feel too bad, with that 13.7 your closer to the "N" index than I am but so far I got a MPH on ya. :D:D:D I like the technical side of all this and watching the changes. Curious, did you happen to see your AFR going down track ?

Re: Ford vs Chevy Build-up
 

That's another pisser...for the life of me I can't remember to look down at the gauge before crossing the stripe. I really need to hook the wide band up to the recorder. The last pass of the weekend I went the other direction on fuel (richer) and it responded favorably. I'm not completely sure the O2 sensor is reading correctly installed in the collector. I'm betting the chassis dyno will use a wand stuck further up into a primary tube.

Here it was just two weeks ago...the only changes were to add 120 pounds of ballast and my futile efforts at tuning.

http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/q...psgt4sffxo.jpg

Re: Ford vs Chevy Build-up
 

Usually on the dyno, the wideband is placed in the end of the exhaust. I am curious to see where you end up. There are so many variables, at least by having someone that is more familiar with these cars tune it that should rule that out of the equation as being an issue. (Not implying that you can't tune, only that this is an unfamiliar platform for you.) You have a good combination, just have to eliminate things until you figure out what is causing it not to run.

Re: Ford vs Chevy Build-up
 

It's pretty obvious Tony when I had it going 13.30s two weeks ago and now it runs 14's. :o

Delk Performance quoted/guesstimated $500 - $1000 to get it tuned...rolling that over in my head atm.

Re: Ford vs Chevy Build-up
 

You could buy a big bunch of test n tune time for that kind of money. The best tool you own is your wideband AFR gauge. Save your money, go back to track, get that beast in hi gear and stare at the gauge for the next 900 feet. Change your fuel tables from 4000 rpm and up to create a 12.5ish air/fuel ratio at 1000ft and thru the stripe. Here is another secret, (don't tell anyone)..............................do all your testing and bracket racing on pump gas.....................9-1 CR does just fine on 91 octane unleaded.

My car started out with a mid 14 second maiden voyage pass. After installing a wideband gauge, tuning the fuel tables and locking the timing out at 32-34 degrees, it ran 13.20 on the old 13.45 index at O weight with a 135,000 mile long block.

You have a waaaaay nice car with good parts, be proud of it, she will fly. Lots of forums and sites about EFI tuning out there. Grab a beer and read up, you will quickly learn just how fast that car really is.

Re: Ford vs Chevy Build-up
 

I like what Charlie said. A local shop told me $125.00 an hour for dyno time & I almost went (story of my life) but my job situation changed. I just got a wide band (from the classifieds here on classracer) & the next trip to the track, 92 octane Conoco will be in the cell.

Re: Ford vs Chevy Build-up
 

I know you are right Charlie...it's just been so aggravating lately. I'll take it somewhere this Saturday and give it another go. Not sure how to lock the timing on this thing. The standalone mode should lock it at 25 degrees and any extra is added in the tables annotated by my input. Hate to fight the crowds, but it looks like Music City Raceway will be my best bet to get a maximum number of passes. If only there were an abandoned airstrip nearby...

Re: Ford vs Chevy Build-up
 

I don't know anything about them personally, but Delk does not have a very good reputation with the Mustang guys, so beware. If you are going to use someone to tune, research them first on the internet. The Mustang world will let you know pretty quickly how good(or bad) they are. Also make certain that they are familiar with the PMS you are using. I agree with what Charlie said to a certain extent, but you are starting from scratch with a new platform. The tune itself may not even be your issue. The dyno time and a good tuner will rule that part out of the equation for you, and you will also be able to see how well your convertor, etc, is working.

Re: Ford vs Chevy Build-up
 

I know at one time you thought about trying the stock computer . Maybe try that or talk to Ed Wright on here he has alot of chassis dyno time plus he has alot of ecm experience.Before you spend a ton of $$$ speak to someone who can steer you in the right direction.

Re: Ford vs Chevy Build-up
 

Not much around this area to choose from. Finding someone with PMS experience is even more rare...forums are all but dead when it comes to this product. Even with the PMS being relatively ancient technology I still should be able to get it to operate given the simple parameters this engine needs. I have the idle/start down...all I need now is WOT sorted out. :p

Re: Ford vs Chevy Build-up
 

That is why I suggested talking to Ed although I really dont know how his ford exp.is. I really love this build and your persistence and determination . It seems you have enough engine to get the job done. Computer tuning is a skill in itself, a learning curve to say the least, but without a little helpful guidance sometimes we trip over our own feet.

Re: Ford vs Chevy Build-up
 

Well, another wasted trip to the track. There is definitely something wrong...the third alternator in a row quit working. I'm beginning to suspect something electrical is the root of all my problems now. No way you blow three alternators in a row and there not be something awry.

I'll have to dig up some schematics to find it. The original alternator harness is still intact and supposedly attached correctly to the solenoid. In my mind the solenoid connections just about have to be the problem...something has to be going to ground somewhere to blow all these alternators, don't you agree?

Re: Ford vs Chevy Build-up
 

Did some checking today and could find nothing obviously wrong with the wiring. I did remove the factory alternator wire from the solenoid...suddenly the one wire alternator is charging again. I don't know the why yet, but it is charging normally now.

Re: Ford vs Chevy Build-up
 

Rich the power for the one wire alt.can come directly from the battery or where the positive cable connects to the solenoid . It doesnt need to come from switched power if thats how it was hooked up.If it stops charging again test the wire and make sure the wire to the alt has 12
+ volts to it.

Re: Ford vs Chevy Build-up
 

I have 8 gauge wire from the alternator direct to the positive battery post. Something wacky was going on for three alternators in a row to quit charging. Not sure what else is tapped into that green wire from the factory alternator wiring harness to the solenoid or what effect it might have had...that wire is no longer in the mix so we will see.

Re: Ford vs Chevy Build-up
 

I finally nailed the alternator issue I had on my 68 with some creative wiring. I'm in NOLA right now and will post some photos Monday. Since this is mostly about EFI which I know zero about, I've been keeping out of this.

EDIT: if your alt is wired directly to your batt pos post or the batt side of your cutoff switch, it may be draining your battery overnight. That happened to me. With your batt cutoff in the OFF position, check voltage at the alternator batt terminal. If it reads zero or near that, your alt is properly isolated from the battery. If it reads voltage, especially 10 volts or more, it's draining your battery.

All of the above is with the motor off and your battery at full charge.

Re: Ford vs Chevy Build-up
 

Positive post cut-off switch is working properly. It's usually off when the car isnt being used or I have a charger hooked to it. Will keep an eye on it this weekend at the BG Hot Rod Reunion.

Re: Ford vs Chevy Build-up
 

Rich did you ever get the ign. timing figured out?

Re: Ford vs Chevy Build-up
 

Good news is the alternator continues to charge as it should. Kenny was not allowed to race at BG this weekend due to the car being efi instead of a carburetor...he was however allowed to make passes in the Exhibition class. Only two runs were made due to inclimate weather, but the timeslip showed positive results in the right direction from some slight fuel table adjustments. I'll have to download the data from the last two runs to see if the timing is holding where it should be.

Re: Ford vs Chevy Build-up
 

Rich doesnt the fuel trim change with timing ? It seems to me that without timing dialed in first that the fuel is secondary just as if a different heat range plug changes the a/f ratio the timing also changes it and the plug temp.

Re: Ford vs Chevy Build-up
 

If you would like to view the guide it is here... http://www.mediafire.com/view/u2ptoj..._IV_7-2004.pdf

Re: Ford vs Chevy Build-up
 

Do you run this in standalone mode ? If so at what rpm is is set to activate.How many degrees of timing and what a/f ratio

Re: Ford vs Chevy Build-up
 

Standalone yes - Trigger point is 10% TPS and rpm point is 2300 atm.

Since in Standalone mode the timing is locked to 25 degrees and any additional or minus values are added from other selected tables, I have a maximum of 10 degrees additional in the WOT tables.

In Standalone fuel mode the controller is programmed to maintain a 12:1 a/f mixture with + or - adjustments from other tables (WOT). This is where I have been concentrating my efforts lately. Using some negative values throughout the rpm range in the WOT table Kenny reported a wide band reading of 12:4 across the stripe on his last pass and the car responded with a two tenths reduction in et. I made another data set with further reductions in fuel for another pass, but we did not get to make the run sadly. I would like to see 12:8 to 13:0 a/f ultimately.

Re: Ford vs Chevy Build-up
 

What will you do if the car is faster with an a/f ratio outside 12.8-13 goal?

Re: Ford vs Chevy Build-up
 

Not sure I understand the question, but people in the know have told me these engines will perform best in this range. Supposedly they fall off substantially below 12:8 a/f.

Re: Ford vs Chevy Build-up
 

Rich after reading the inst. it sounds like your doing it right . My suggestion would have been to try 38 to 40 deg. to start with a/f around 12.8 to 13.2 . So i know your close. What were your times from sat. runs ?
Also is the timing jumper in or out and have you verified total timing with a light?

Re: Ford vs Chevy Build-up
 

Yeah, spout is in at about 12 degrees initial. I'm not messing with the timing anymore until I get the a/f in the ballpark. First pass Friday was 13.78...with a little fuel pulled the next pass was 13.53.

Re: Ford vs Chevy Build-up
 

Rich
no news in a few weeks... Hows the stang coming?
Scott

Re: Ford vs Chevy Build-up
 

With the recent rainy weather I have not been able to get to a track. I'll be on the road this weekend to go pick up the '65 wagon. The next outing with the Mustang I'm thinking about pulling the spout and locking the timing at 35 degrees to see what effect it has.

Re: Ford vs Chevy Build-up
 

Rich
Im giving up on installing my own tune and taking it to someone Friday to get a tune and a few recommendations for changes on the car. .. Then gonna get the new short block ready to install when i get the car back from him..

Re: Ford vs Chevy Build-up
 

any updates on mustang ? I am running a twin car but have yet to tune it up would love to hear your experience blingmaster

Re: Ford vs Chevy Build-up
 

Have not been back to the track lately. Luck still eludes me on this efi tuning...I'll get back to it when finished with some other projects. Bet it would zing with a carb lol...:p

Re: Ford vs Chevy Build-up
 

What ever happened to this car? Did you give up on it?

Re: Ford vs Chevy Build-up
 

It's been wintering in my garage at the house waiting for some attention. I have a set of 19 pound injectors and a smaller MAF sensor sitting on top of the plenum...just waiting on me.

http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/q...pssyx1ll1n.jpg

http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/q...pskkmcksou.jpg

It should have already been done, but I have spent all winter working on the El Camino.

http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/q...psam7rtye0.jpg

http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/q...psersfewzs.jpg

Re: Ford vs Chevy Build-up
 

The El Chevy is looking good but the Mustang needs love too! LOL

Re: Ford vs Chevy Build-up
 

This needs a like button!!

Re: Ford vs Chevy Build-up
 

Ok, ok...got off my butt when I arrived home from work this evening. Injectors and MAF sensor swapped, I'll put the plenum on later today after I get some sleep. If I sense a change when it's fired I'll chance a trip to Bowling Green this weekend for the QuickFuel Combo races. If it will just run the index I'll claim victory. :rolleyes:

http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/q...pshm48u6ub.jpg

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Rinsed off, antifreeze flushed and ready for duty...we'll see. :p

http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/q...ps0k0wqrte.jpg

Re: Ford vs Chevy Build-up
 

That was quick work. Good luck at the track.