Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

After Stock qualifying @ The Rock, Bruce Noland was #22, with a 10.534, which was .866 under. Robert Holmes was #31 @ .817 under.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...er=30#indextop

In Stock E-1, Bruce cut a slow light & lost. But, apparently conditions were good there. He dialed 10.45 & ran 10.442, which is .958 under the 11.40 C/SA index.

There were several C/SA cars entered. Bruce had the quickest, in qualifying & elims.

https://www.nhra.com/results/2021/lu...ock-eliminator

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

If I have already posted this, I apologize for this repeat.

For another thread, I just looked back thru my pics of '65 GTO Stockers. Was searching for any pics of 2-speed auto trans Stockers.

To my surprise, I noticed that the car in a pic I'm familiar with is of a '65 GTO that ran B/SA. That means it had to run a 2-speed auto trans.

Also, either I never noticed before, or I noticed & it didn't really register with me, but, on the rear fender are the words: "AHRA Record Holder" !

I suppose the reason I haven't used the pic much is because the car appears to have a Tempest grill, instead of a GTO grill, as well as the wrong bumper. I assumed the car probably just ran at some local outlaw track. But, obviously, at some point, it was a serious legal AHRA Stocker. It was apparently sponsored by Thompson Pontiac.

Anybody here know anything about this car ?

Stan Weiss posted this quote. Don't know where he found it. Also don't know if the car had the wrong grill & bumper on it when the record was set, or not.

"...Dick Agee drove the Thompson GTO to a national record.
Agee's official elapsed time in the 1965 GTO was 13.30 seconds..."

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

The Vegas Dodge Nats race is underway.

In Stock Q-1, Randi Lyn Shipp is #8, in her '67 Bird. C.W. Hoefer is #18, in his '73 Bird. And Adam Strang is #21, in his '68 Bird.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...er=30#indextop

In Q-2, the Pontiacs were #9, #22, & #27.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...er=30#indextop

Adam Strang & C.W Hoefer survived E-1.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...er=30#indextop

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

Just got these first 3 pics, which were made @ a recent car show.

It's the "Limelighter" '67 GTO Stocker. It was a nat record holder, back in '68.

It was driven by Greg Murnane. He was RU in season points, in NHRA div 5, in '68.

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

Just realized that I ID'd a pic wrong. When I saw a pic(pic #4 below) of a white '66 Knafel Pontiac, I thought it was one of the OHC cars that Knafel ran.

BUT, on closer examination of the pic, as well as noticing the same car in another pic(pic #5 below), I realized that the car is actually the original Tin Indian V '66 GTO. It has BB/S on it, in that pic. So, what class is that ?

I'd been thinking & posting that the GTO pictured with all the trophies was actually the car that won all the races.

I've also posted pics of the Knafel 2-car rig, with 2 '66 GTO's on it, with different paint schemes. Now I'm really confused.

So, were there actually 3 of these cars, all of which were raced in '66 ?

Was the trophy car actually the same car as in pic #4, just made later, when it had a different paint job ?

How many different GTO's are pictured below ? :confused:

Note: Don't count the OHC six ragtop.

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

Recently found this pic of a '64 GTO Stocker.

It appears to be a dealer sponsored car, that ran AHRA, in the F2 B/S class. Don't have any performance numbers.

Anybody know the car ?

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

Talkin about all the Stock rules changes back in the early '70's, on another thread, reminded me of all the different classes Truman Fields ran, in '68 Birds.

I have pics of his Birds running A, B, C, & D-Stock, as well as B/PS. He set records in several classes. Don't know how many different records he set with his Birds. He raced '68 Birds for a lot of years.

As I've probably mentioned a few times, he was my 1st Pontiac hero !

I'll sort out some pics of his Birds running different classes, & post 'em when I have time.

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

Well here's another Poser for a Pontiac Guy again:

Recall the other thread, we just went over the NHRA Factors:
385hp RA2
380hp RA4
Not what I would've guessed: It would seem the RA4 would make more power:
* New heads - better intake port or so I read
* Aluminum intake - you'd think better than iron but I've read both
* Rockers - same cam but 1.65 RR vs the RA2's 1.50 RR
For me, that Gonkulates the RA4 to make 20-25hp more than the RA2.

And yet, NHRA factored the RA4 at 5hp LESS than the RA2.
Did they really run that way (ie about the same)?
The fastest RA2 car I have from back then is Fields
119.52mph record, RA2 4spd Firebird, June 1971
Compared to the fastest RA4 car
114.79mph record, RA4 auto GTO, Nemesis, May 1970
Of course you then have to correct the GTO for its weight (200 lb ~ 2mph) and being an auto trans (trap speeds about 2mph lower)
So make it 118.79mph for what we've converted to a "68 Firebird 4spd RA4". A more accurate conversion gives 118.95mph.
So
119.52mph best RA2
118.95mph best RA4
Given how sparse that old data is, I'd call that "the same", which jives with NHRA factoring the RA2=385 and RA4=380, ie "the same".

I looked in my modern NHRA class files, a couple years old.
For stock class
RA2=335-340, RA4=345 in the Firebird

RA2=365, RA4=365 in the GTO
So, within the strangeness of modern factoring, the RA2 and RA4 are still factored "about the same". It's more a function of the body than the engine.

I wondered, what is your feeling over the years, are the RA2 & RA4 about the same power or is one stronger (in the same weight car!)?

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

"...I wondered, what is your feeling over the years, are the RA2 & RA4 about the same power or is one stronger (in the same weight car!)?"

The RA4 has to make more power, for the reasons mentioned. Bigger cam, because of the 1.65 rockers. RA4 heads are said to flow a little better. Other than that & the alum intake, as far as I can see, for all practical purposes, the engines are identical.

I'd guess the RA4 would have to make at least 15-20 more hp, just because of the 1.65 rockers. May not be that much.

In 2013, the RA2 Bird engine with auto trans was defactored down to 340hp, which makes it very competitive. That's only 7hp more than the 330hp D-port engine's NHRA 333hp factor.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...3&MAKE=Pontiac

The '69 RA4 Bird engine has been 356hp, since 2007. That also seems very fair to me. But not many Pontiac guys are willing to run a set of RA4 heads on a race car. They are rare & worth lots of $$$$$. Bruce Noland now has a '69 T/A tribute Bird with the RA4 engine. He's got it down in the mid 10's, so far.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...2&MAKE=Pontiac

Several guys have run quicker with RA2 Birds. But, I figure that's mostly just because the heads have been cheaper, so lots more guys have run 'em & have had years now to improve the performance.

The main reason I'm pretty sure the RA4 makes more power is because Scott Burton's '70 RA4 powered Bird was the quickest Pontiac powered Stocker ever, running real low 10's & even dipping into the 9's, in Stock legal form, but not in Stock competition. If any legal Pontiac Stocker has run quicker, I'm not aware of it.

John Schloe ran a '69 Bird with RA4 power, but ruined a head & switched over to a D-port combo.

One more thing is that although there have been quite a few '68 Super Stock Birds, John Angeles' '69 RA4 SS Bird was the first reg SS class 400 Pontiac powered car to dip into the 9's. Keri Angeles did that back in 2000. It has run in the 9.80's since that time. Don't know if any '68 SS Bird has run in the 9's or not. They're certainly capable of it, since several guys have run low 10's with '68 Bird Stockers. I suppose nobody has really tried to run 9's with a '68 SS Bird. Right now, I can't think of a single '68 Bird running reg Super Stock. Mike McKinney ran one for quite a while. Don't know it's quickest time. Marty Mckinney has it now, but painted orange.

https://www.facebook.com/mckinneymarty88

One new wrinkle which has come along in recent years is that now, you can use Edelbrock #60587 alum heads on the RA4 engines, in Super Stock.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...2&MAKE=Pontiac

Don't know the current price for those heads. But I figure it is several thousand cheaper than original unported RA4 iron heads. The NHRA hp factor is 350hp. Don't know of anybody running that combo, unless the Angeles Bird is running the Edel heads. The 428 Pontiac engine, with the same Edel heads is more competitive @ 330hp, & is being run in several GT cars. But, this is the Stockers thread, so that's all I'll say about SS, here, for now.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...9&MAKE=Pontiac

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

oldskool:
Since this is a Buick link you may have missed it.
All about RA2 RA3 RA4.
Dyno of RA3 vs RA4 both with iron RA exhaust.
Probably good prep but otherwise stone stock so they say.

Then lots of tid-bits about maybe RA2 is the equal of the RA4, or reasons why not (same ones you gave) etc. Good thread, at tid-bit on each of the 5 pages.

https://v8buick.com/index.php?thread...-low-et.80595/

I've tried everything I can think of for data for the Gonkulator within reason - I still get the RA4 about 20hp stronger than the RA2.

I even looked at the intakes - here is a fun link on the 69-71 aluminum intake vs the 72 & service parts intake.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...Hcvc1xtoVOMnjV



I dont see how NHRA would get factors of RA2=385 and RA4=380, but that's per Dwights old files & the cars fit (except for the mysterious Ben Wolf) so there we are.

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

Yeah, I think one of those RA2 Birds has run a 9.99 in F.A.S.T racing.

https://www.fastdrags.com/fast-records

And IIRC, that's with hard narrow street tires & no traction bars. Don't seem possible.

Obviously, the engines are not small cubes, & nowhere near stock.

I'm still searching for the best times some Pontiacs have turned in the pure stock class. Will post if I find it.

Here's a '68 RA2 Bird that ran 11.54. Some RA4 cars also ran in the 11's.

https://www.psmcdr.com/all-time-lists

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

I did a study a while back on Pure Stock PSMCD from 1998-2015.
I looked at a weighted average trap MPH (to get rid of anomalies like a single incredibly fast MPH done once) and ranked all the engine combos by MPH.
To combine stick and auto I added 2mph to all the auto trans cars which I find correlates mighty close from that era. That let me average more runs over the years.
Heres some of the rankings:
RANK MPH #Runs Engine
1 119.2 41 426hemi
2 116.7 13 427-L72-COPO
3 115.8 38 400ra4
4 115.0 32 454LS6
5 114.6 50 396L78
6 114.5 53 440-6v
7 113.0 36 455ho&sd
8 112.0 12 409-8v
9 112.0 41 455stage1
10 111.5 37 428CJ
11 110.3 63 400ra1ra3
12 109.9 47 455w30
13 109.0 3 351boss
14 109.0 3 302boss

19 107.0 11 421HO

That covers the Top 14, all the Pontiacs I found in there, and the Top BOP and FoMoCo, sadly down at #10.
I don’t think anybody was running their 427 Fairlane or Hi Riser Galaxie (if they’re even legal in PSMCD). To FoMoCo’s credit though, they did take the top 2 small block spots.

The last Pontiac on the list was the 421HO at #19. The other 3 Pontiac engines that showed up all made the Top 11. I didn’t see any RA2 cars in that 1998-2015 PSMCD era.

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

"...didn’t see any RA2 cars in that 1998-2015 PSMCD era."

In more recent years, I think the RA2 Birds are the quickest Pontiacs in Pure Stock type racing.

I don't know if that's just because nobody has done a real serious pure stock RA4 Bird build, but some have done the RA2 Birds.

Again, the scarcity & price of the RA4 heads may be a factor.

Going quick, under pure stock type rules, is not easy. So, to do it, requires people who know what they're doing, & have the time & money to put into the project. Also must have a real desire to wring everything they can out of the combination. There are just not that many qualified guys around who have all these things going for them, IMO.

A Pontiac name I've seen more than any other, connected with pure stock type racing, is Dan Jensen.

https://www.motortrend.com/how-to/hp...ol-pt1-engine/

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

That's a great link.
That SUN Distributor machine!
Our high school had one so I spent quite a few mornings on it.

I forgot the PSMCD rule about 12mo12K warranty so that knocks the 427 Fairlanes out, making the 428CJ / 429SCJ / Boss351 Ford's top combos.

I thought for a while that PSMCD was using "factory+1.0" as the max compression ratio but it looks like they've just gone to the NHRA specs, but also check .050 duration.

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

I occasionally run across "new"(to me) pics of Pontiac Stockers which I download to my files.

Have never posted these 1st 2(that I remember). They're of a '68 Bird that was running B/S. The name on the side is Frank Mulvihill. Perm #1535. Never heard the name or seen the car.

Because the same cars ran different classes back in the old days, sometimes changing from one year to the next, I've recently began trying to determine when a pic was made.

In the top RH corner of the 2nd pic, there is the nose of either a '77 or '78 Bird. Therefore, I figure the earliest that pic could have possibly been made was the fall of '76, after the new '77 Birds hit the streets.

So, can anybody here provide more info about this car or it's owner, or what year the pic was taken ? :confused:

Pic #3 is of a Knafel '68 Bird. I assume it was a Stocker. Don't recall seeing any pics of it in action. I did find a pic of a For Sale ad for it & the Knafel '68 GTO. Says both cars will run under their nat record. I assume that means their Stock Elim record.?

In the pic, it appears to me that there is no lens or light in the turn signal/park light hole. Can anybody provide more info on this Bird ? Any action pics ?

I've probably already posted pic #5. But last time I wanted to use it, I couldn't find it. So, here it is. It's the Wells Pontiac '68 Bird, which was raced by the Frame bros. In the pic I have of it, on a hauler truck, it has B/S marked on it.

Probably also posted pic #6. It's a '68 Bird marked E/SA. Best I can tell, it appears to have Bill Hay & Jack Treola on the door. Looks like Jack's name on the window, as driver. With a quick check an 11.07 is the best ET I could find. It was apparently raced in the late '90's & early 2000's, with both James & Jack Treola sharing the driving duties.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCStory.asp?ID=48030

I think I've brought this up before, and someone posted that this is the car that Tim Gillespie now owns, & Julie Biermann drives. But, my memory may not be correct on this. And I hate to post incorrect info. So, would one of you guys who knows, please post the racing history of this car, or at least it's owners who raced it.

Edit: The search function on this site is really bad. I entered Jack Treola. Got this post, then it began listing every post it could find with "Jack" in it. Totally useless.

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

May have posted this. Don't remember.

It's an article about Dave Ribeiro & his '78 Bird, from more than 20 years ago.

https://www.motortrend.com/features/...tiac-firebird/

May have also posted this video of Rob Holmes makin a pass.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_gvsbAEjNs

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

Qualifying for the Pomona Finals race was today. There use to be lots of Pontiacs at the Pomona races. Not anymore. There were only 3 Pontiac powered Stockers, today, Randi Lyn Shipp, C.W. Hoefer, & Adam Strang. Randi Lyn was .941 under.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r=100#indextop

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

NO. Tim built their car from a rusty body shell.

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

From a few years ago in this thread. Look at Post #189


https://classracer.com/classforum/sh...=74965&page=19


Stan

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

OK, my mistake.

The other name on the Treola Bird is Hoy, rather than Hay, as I listed it. I can't tell that from the angle of the pic. And I certainly didn't remember it from any previous post.

I'll go to my files & label the pics correctly, for future reference.

Mark said:

" Jack and Bill were a couple of really nice fellows, who I believe, won the Div. 3 championship in the mid- 90's .I haven't heard anything lately about them or the car..."

Last time I see the car on DRC is in Sept of '04, with James Treola driving. He's listed as living in WV. But the car # is 3049. DRC shows both Jack & James Treola driving the car, at different races. Assume they were kin.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCStory.asp?ID=1260

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

@ the '21 Pomona Finals race:

The bad news is that Randi Lyn left too soon, in the semi-final. :(

But, the good news is that she was running a slower class car, which left too soon, before she did. :)

So, she made it to the final.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...er=30#indextop

But she cut a bad light & lost the final. :(

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

"...But, are you sure which combo Arnie Toftland ran?.."

I think we covered this in another thread.

Arnie Toftland ran the "Viking" cars. One was a '70 GTO.

The other was apparently run as a '71 Bird, in H/SA. The pic I have of it & most every other '71 Bird Stocker I have a pic of, ran H/S or H/SA. BUT, as we've discovered, SOME years the class weight breaks were different, sometimes changing the class a car would run, from one season to the next. Also, it could have run a 400 engine, a D-port 455, or a 455HO round port engine. Therefore, it wouldn't surprise me a bit to find out this car also ran I/SA or G/SA, in certain years.

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

Found a few pics in the last couple of days, which I don't think I've posted. Some are just different pics of cars I've mentioned earlier in the thread.

The 1st is another pic of the "Lil 2 Speed" '64 GTO.

Then there are a couple of '65's.

Pic 4 is one of the Royal '66 PR cars. I just posted it because I think it looks cool from the front. :cool:

#5 is a pic of the Nemesis '69 Judge I don't think I've posted.

#6 is a pic of the "Big Iron" '69 Judge, in the staging lanes.

#7 is the "Big Iron" '70 Judge, at the same track, plus another '70 Judge behind it.

#8 is a Grand Prix Stocker which I've never seen before.

#9 is another pic of the '60 "Big Iron", in the pits.

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

Here's a few more pics I got recently.

The 1st 3 are '69 Birds.

#1 is the Royal "Test Car". Don't know what all they tested with it.

#2 is a Towne Pontiac '69 Bird, running C/S.

#3 is the Royal 350 powered '69 Bird. I assume they only ran one of these. Don't know.

#4 appears to be a '73 Ventura, driven by Jack Matyas, running Q/S. He later ran a '74 Ventura & a '74 GTO. All 3 MAY have been the same car, with different body parts/trim. Running in Q/S, it may have had a 2-barrel. Not sure. I know that in '74, the 4-barrel 350 ran O class.

The next 4 pics are of 3 '58 models.

The last pic is of a '62, running E/S. Michael is one of the names on the car. I assume that is Bob Michael, & the car is one of the MANY Pontiacs he had a hand in.

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

A guy on another site is asking for info on the Ray Hunt Pontiacs. This pic of a '72 A-body is all I can find. It may have been a Super Stocker, at the time. Can't tell, for sure. I think Ray was connected to Mid-America Speed Centers. May have owned it. Don't know.

Anybody have more info on Ray Hunt Pontiacs ? :confused:

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

Don't know if this is the same Ray Hunt.


Stan


Lot #976.1 - Sold new at Klinger Warner Pontiac in Ann Arbor, MI and used strictly for drag racing purposes in D-Stock Eliminator by former owner Ray Hunt from 1968 to 1998. A consistent NHRA winner plus two-time IHRA Northern National Championship wins with racing photos included. Restored back to stock condition in 2004 using all correct or original components. Never cut or tubbed. P.H.S. Documentation and Window Sticker along with owner history and previous title copies included. Vehicle features include 400/335hp WT Coded engine, M20 wide ratio 4-speed, 4.10 posi-traction rear end, power brakes, Rally gauges with tachometer, AM radio with Verba-phonic, wood grain steering wheel, black vinyl upholstery, black vinyl covered top, outstanding chrome, stainless, trim and glass, all four original T-3 headlamps, Rally II wheels with redline tires and refinished in the original Regimental Red.

https://www.barrett-jackson.com/Even...HARDTOP-137948

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

"... A consistent NHRA winner plus two-time IHRA Northern National Championship wins with racing photos included..."

Would love to see those pics & links to the race win results.

"...Don't know if this is the same Ray Hunt..."

I don't know either. :confused:

Note: Ray is connected to the "Warrior" intakes, which were supposedly copies of the original "Nash" intake. May have even had a business called "Warrior Racing Products". He gets real bad reviews on some Pontiac sites. Here's one of the "nice" threads about him.

https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...d.php?t=422060

But, I'm not interested in that. I'm only interested in the Pontiac powered cars he may have either driven or sponsored, in Stock or Super Stock.

Assume the '67 linked may have looked similar to this F/SA '67, but a bit more red.

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

I thought this was a "Feel Good" racing story.

Lindy Lindholm raced a '74 Firebird Formula. A few years back, somebody stole the car & trailer.

Today, Leo Glasbrenner told me that, with police help, he found the Lindy Lindholm '74 Formula Stocker.

The thieves had messed up some stuff. So Leo fixed/freshened everything, got it race ready, & then surprised Lindy with it ! Ain't that cool ? :cool:

Lindy raced it at Vegas, & somehow I just didn't see it.

It ran .736 under.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2021#indextop

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

I had the warrior performance catalogue/pamphlet. I bought some parts from them in circa 1988. Ram Air IV cam lifters springs and a chain and assorted goodies. I built up a budget backyard 455 I picked up. I would dream looking at that intake and other equipment. Still have my Pontiac performance books on numbers and mods. Forget the names now.
Cool thread.
Having a GTO stocker must’ve been awesome. Ram Air IV cars are still my fav cars of all time. Especially the 1969s.

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

Since you live in New York, I assume you are familiar with Pontiac guys Richie Hoffman & Nunzi Romano.

For any reading this who don't know these guys, Richie is well known for his Pontiac powered bracket racing & Pontiac engine building.

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...3884&p=3898670

Nunzi has done it all. I suppose he was the biggest name in Pontiac performance & racing, for decades. I'm quite sure I've posted pics of some Stockers he either owned or sponsored. I'll look 'em up & post 'em here.

Pics 2-4 are of a '62 Cat which ran C/S. Pics 5-7 are what I assume is either the same car, restored, or a re-creation of it, which ran D/S.

Pics 8 & 9 are of a '69 Judge which says on the rear quarter "Prepared by Nunzi's Automotive".

https://www.yenko.net/forum/showpost...93&postcount=1

I'm sure he did work on, & probably built engines for other Stockers, back in the old days. If you guys know of any, please post info and/or pics.

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

While lookin for the Nunzi prepped '69 Judge, I ran across 2 more '69 Judge Stockers, which I'd found pics of but don't think I've posted here.

The 1st one is was named "Jolly Olly Orange". Orange obviously referred to the color of the car. Don't know about the Jolly Olly part. It has "Schoon Motors" on the rear quarter. The 1st pic shows that it was towed behind a car, with a tow bar. That's how I started. In that pic, I think the car in the other lane is the "Viking" '70 Judge, another Schoon Motors car.

The 2nd car had "Whittington Pontiac" on the door.

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

OK guys, for you guys who were @ Indy in '72, AND were familiar with Stock & SS cars at that time, I need some help here. Just ran across a post on a Pontiac forum which was talkin about the '72 Lemans/GTO that Truman Fields ran in '72. All the pics I have of the car show it to be running SS. But, this post seems to have said that for Indy '72, the car was switched over to the G/S class. Said it won the class @ Indy & set the G/S nat record. I found pics of it supposedly taken @ Indy '72. It was clearly running SS. Would appreciate any help in getting to the truth about these 2 Pontiacs that Truman Fields had, in '72.

In order to present the questions I have, here's a copy of what I posted on the forum thread.

" "...The car set SS/K records right off the trailer back in '72. Pontiac sent a role of 455 HO GTO stickers in the glove box. They would often take the Goat stickers off and run it as a Lemans as it had a 200 lb. weight brake in SS/I. Pontiac built the car very light and in SS/K they would have to add the 200 lbs. to make weight. There is a fair amount of hidden trickery from Pontiac to do so when the car was shipped. It had been successful enough that Mother Mopar set the Ramchargers, Sox and Martin...after them. They never got there and beat the HO..."

OK, I'd still like to get to the bottom of this. So far, I haven't found any online evidence to prove that The '72 Lemans/GTO was ever run in any class besides Super Stock.

BUT, IF I'm understanding what I've quoted below, it appears that the author said that the same '72 Lemans/GTO that ran SS @ Indy '72, was converted to & ran G/S @ Indy '72. Says it got the '72 Indy G/S class win & set the G/S national record. I don't think it's possible to run both Stock AND SS, in the same car, at the same national event. If it was allowed, the car would have to pass tech for the Stock class it was running. If it was legal for Stock, then it would have been slow for SS, @ Indy. So, who would do that, even if they could ?

"...Ford was a pain in Pontiac's side at the time with the 428 CJ stick cars still being a dominate force in stock. With this in mind they switched to G/S for INDY in '72. The car promptly went out and set the G/S record and won class. The nearest 428 CJ car was running over 0.4 behind. They sold the Goat immediately after INDY. The car went on to reset the G/S records in '74 and twice in '75. It made runner up at INDY but never won INDY again. Truman got transferred by IBM and he also let the 455 HO E/SA Formula go at that time that Pontiac had provided..."

That post also says that the '72 Lemans/GTO was sold in '72, but "...went on to reset the G/S records in '74 and twice in '75..."

Well, that brings up more questions. For me, the questions this post brings up are:

(1) Did that '72 Lemans/GTO actually run BOTH Stock AND Super Stock ?

(2) Were there TWO of these '72 Lemans/GTO cars, one in Stock & 1 in SS ? (I've never seen another mentioned)

(3) Was the G/S class winner/record holder car mentioned actually the Firebird that was mentioned, of which I have never seen any pics or performance/race results ?

(4) Who owned/ran the car that set records in '74 & '75, AFTER it had been sold ?

(5) What exactly is the truth about this '72 Lemans/GTO & the '72 Firebird, both which Truman Fields supposedly ran in '72 ?

Main question: What car actually ran G/S, won the G/S class @ Indy '72, then reset the G/S nat record in '74 & '75 ?

Can anybody PLEASE shed some light on this ?

I HATE to say a member is posting false info. But I haven't been able to find a single shred of evidence that the '72 Lemans/GTO that Truman Fields had, ever ran in any Stock class.

Somebody please help me get to the truth here !!! It may not be important to anyone else. But, if a Pontiac did indeed win class @ Indy & set the nat record in 3 different years, I think that is important enuff to report on. "

Note: In doing some more research on these cars I ran across this fact, which I'm sure I've read, but had forgotten. Besides winning Stock @ Indy '73, in his '68 Bird Stocker, setting nat records, winning class @ Indy, he was also IHRA Stock champ 2 years. "...Truman was also the IHRA World Champion in 1982 and 1983 and a Car Craft All-Star in 1984..."

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

Found some pics which appear to be from an ad for the car, in '75 or later.

Painted on the rear was "72-74-75 N.H.R.A. Nat'l. Record Holder".

I assume that in '72, Truman was running it, in SS.

In '74 & '75, I have no idea who raced it or what class the recs were set in.

Any pertinent info will be appreciated.

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

Well, I haven't found anybody on any forum I'm on who ever saw the Truman Fields '72 Lemans/GTO run anything but Super Stock. And I haven't found any pics of it in Stock trim or marked up in a Stock class.

Therefore, at least for now, I'll call that bogus info. Don't know where the poster came up with it.

And, although I've read that a Stock class '72 Bird was also provided for Truman to run in Stock, I've yet to see a single pic of it. If somebody has one, please post it.

'72 was a strange year, in Stock. It wasn't even run at some of the nat events. Field was not even full at some big races. Lots of guys left Stock. No cars older than '63 could run Stock. I think the rules stated that the cars had to be driven to the track. Don't know that the NHRA techs actually enforced that rule, especially at nat & div races.

According to the Jr. Stock book, the cars had to run street tires & a functional exhaust system with stock manifolds. No headers.

The weight breaks were changed. A-stock was 9.00 - 9.99 lbs/hp. B was 10.00-10.99. C was 11.00 - 11.99. G was 15.00 - 15.99. Don't think any Pontiac V8 powered '72 A or F-body Pontiac could have run as low as G/S. So, there's another reason to NOT believe that a Pontiac set the G/S record in '72.

There were lots of records set, tho, since all records began the year at a minimum. Again, this is according the Jr. Stock book. It says that a '72 Stage 1 Buick dominated the class, won the 1st & last nat event, & held the nat record in it's class.

https://www.listedbuy.com/cars/class...d-champ-museum

Here's some clips from the World Finals, @ Amarillo. Shows the Stock final round.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgNME_6qTNA

I know some of you older guys were racing in '72. What are your memories of how Stock was handled at the big races ? :confused:

http://classracer.com/classforum/showthread.php?t=51198

Just thought of this. '68 div 4 Stock champ Gary Moore set the F/S nat record @ the '69 Winter nats, in a '61 Pontiac. In '71, he was running a '71 H/S Bird. But, for '72, he'd switched over to SS, with a '72 Bird. Don't know if he used the same body, with '72 updates, or not. Guessing that he was one of the Stock racers who switched to SS, because of the new for '72 Stock rules.

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

Just found 2 more pics of the "Limelighter" '67 GTO record holder @ the Spring Nats. Was running E/S then.

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

Look closely at your GTO pic, I think you'll find that it is in 1972 Stock trim.

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

After looking into this a little closer, & running some numbers on a calculator, here's some things I've concluded.

(1) In '72, the weight break for G/S was 15,00-15.99. Well, not even a 2-barrel 400 engine would have run that low a class. Therefore, that car could not have run G/S in '72, in NHRA. Same goes for the '72 Bird, which Truman supposedly had, of which I've never seen a pic.

(2) But, in '74 & '75, sure. With all the possible 400 & 455 engines it could have run, it could have probably run G/S with at least one of those combos. IIRC, Todd Hoven won a nat event & got the G/SA class win @ Indy, in a '72 GTO.

(3) I noticed in the for sale pic the car did not have roll bars. Thought maybe that was an indication that maybe it had been switched over to Stock & the bars removed.

But, after lookin at the pic posted below, it's very obvious that the car did not have roll bars when Truman was driving it in SS/K.

(4) Under the hood, you can see a windshield wiper motor & alternator. Would just assume that SS racers could/would remove those. But, one or both could have been added, just to help with the sale.

There's a factory air cleaner on the engine. But, I don't know if that was required in Stock or SS, in '72. May have just been put on to cover the carb, & make the ad look better.

(5) Back then SS cars were what I call "Small Tire Super Stockers". I can't tell from the for sale pic exactly what tires are on the car. Anyhow, those tires were probably NOT what was run on the car, either in Stock or SS.

Anyhow, Billy, I don't have enuff knowledge of Stocker construction to see what you obviously see. So, please point out the things you see that indicate the car was run in Stock.

Again, anyone here who actually saw either the A or F-body that Truman had in '72, running in Stock, please post that info and any pics or links to pics showing either car with Stock lettering on 'em. Would love to know who owned/raced these cars after Truman.

Thanks for any help ! Would like to get to the truth about the 2 '72 model cars Truman had, in '72. .

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

Hey, I just happened to think of this. Tom Olson posted that he had raced with Truman & helped him work on the '68 Bird Truman got from Roy & Mike McKinney.

Also said that after Truman moved, Tom himself built a '72 455HO powered Stock Bird.

http://classracer.com/classforum/sho...&postcount=449

SO, if they worked on Truman's car & raced together, it makes sense that they MIGHT have discussed the '72 Pontiacs that Truman had raced. Therefore, he MIGHT be able to clear this up for us, or at least provide more info.

I sent him a PM, so we'll see what he knows.

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

I don't know if Truman ever did run in stock in '72.



https://www.dragracecentral.com/drcstory.asp?ID=14902


Stan

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

Yeah, I've read that. BUT, have you ever seen a pic of that Bird ? Ever see any race results showing that he actually entered a race with that Bird ?

I have not seen 1 single pic of that Bird, nor read any race results showing that Truman ever ran it in a race.

If anybody has pic or race results of that Bird, please post it.