Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

Somebody just posted this pic of a Ray Hunt 2nd gen Bird Stocker. Said it was on the back of a Mid America Speed Center catalog. Looks to be classed D/SA.

The caption says it was running as an SD455 car. But, I've read that the SD455 powered '73 Formulas came with a T/A hood & shaker.

So, maybe the caption is wrong. Maybe it was actually a '72 455HO powered car. Or, maybe NHRA didn't care what hood SD455 Formulas ran.

Anybody know, for sure ? Anybody have any more pics or info about this car ?

This shows that NHRA will allow the SD455 engine to be run in a Formula, a T/A, as well as Lemans, GTO, Grand Prix, & Grand Am, even tho most agree that the SD455 engine was only available in the Bird.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...px?ENGINE=2080

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

https://www.motortrend.com/news/hppp...ders-shootout/


Well if he never ran the Firebird a number of people have got it wrong.


Stan

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

Yeah, I've read that several times. That should indicate that the car actually existed.

BUT, I have never seen one single pic of that Stock class Bird. Have you ?

And I've never seen one list or mention of any kind, of any race he ever ran the car in. Have you ?

There are quite a few pics of the GTO. Does anybody else find it odd that there seems to be no pics or other info about that Bird Stocker that Truman supposedly ran in '72 ?

Would love to have pics of the car, as well as info on races run & times turned. Can anyone here provide any pics or info.

Could it be that he had someone else drive it ?

Since the NHRA rules that year said the Stockers had to be driven to the track, not trailered, do ya'll think that prevented Truman from racing the car at any big races ?

I assume that lots of Stocker guys trailered their car close to the track, then drove it in the gate.

Then, I assume that some of the tracks ignored that rule & let racers tow or trailer their Stockers.

Can any of you older guys shed more light on running a Stocker during the '72 season ? :confused:

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

Don't know why I haven't thought of this before.

Below are pics of Truman's '68 "Hard Times" Bird, @ the 1972 Summer Nats. There is no class trophy or Wally that I see, in the 1st pic. So, was that pic for the class win, or did he win Stock Eliminator, or ?

He obviously couldn't have driven that car AND the '72 Bird he supposedly had.

So, that brings up some possibilities/questions.

(1) Why was Truman NOT driving the '72 Bird Stocker ?

(2) Was it not in racing condition for that particular race ?

(3) Was it entered in that race, with someone else driving it ?

(4) Had Truman already raced it some & it did not run quick enuff to be competitive ?

(5) I've read that all nat records were set at minimums at the beginning of the '72 season. So, did the '72 Bird set it's class record that year ?

(6) Did another car in the same class bomb the record, therefore making Truman's '72 Bird non-competitive ?

(7) Why does there seem to be no pics or records of this car's performance, but only mentions of it's existence ?

(8) Does anybody have any real solid evidence that Truman ever actually drove this car in competition ?

(9) Does anybody know the car's history, after Truman had it ?

I know there are guys on this site who were around back in '72. Gotta be somebody here with more info about this car AND Stock racing in general, for that particular year, 1972. I've read that lot's of Stock racers switched to SS. But some still ran Stock. Have read that the Stage 1 455 powered Buicks did good that year. Same car won 1st & last nat event. Don't know how the Pontiacs did. Anybody have any info about Pontiac NHRA Stockers, for the year 1972 ?

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

Since I made that last post, I've read that Truman did win @ the Summer Nats, and @ Indy, in his '68 Bird.

BUT, what I read said that he was DQ'd @ both races for tire rule infractions.

Can anybody here verify this ? :confused:

If this is true, I'm wondering exactly what the infraction was. Have read that the tires had to be street legal, not softened any, and not shaved down below a certain groove depth.

So, if he was indeed DQ'd for a tire rule infraction, there was obviously something about the tires he ran that didn't pass tech.

Would appreciate any info about this reported DQ.

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

I've read that sometime during the last half of the '73 season, a soft compound M&H wrinkle wall DOT tire was allowed by NHRA. Could be any size that would fit in the stock wheel well.

They had 2 very small grooves in 'em. I didn't find out about these tires til after the '73 season was over. I bought a pair over the winter & ran 'em during the '74 season. They instantly dropped my ET aprox 1/2 sec. I've already posted pics on this thread.

Truman Fields won Stock @ Indy '73. I assume he was running those soft tires. I found 9 pics of Truman's Bird, supposedly taken in '73, on the Petersen site. You can see in some of those pics that the rear tires were wider than the 9" slicks that were made legal for '75.

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

Motor Wheels look fantastic.

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

Also found 4 other Pontiac Stockers on that Petersen '73 Indy section.

#1 & #2 are of what appears to be a '63 Catalina wagon, which was running T/S. Has "NHRA National Class Champ" on the side. Don't remember ever seeing this wagon before.

#3 IIRC, this is a '73 Model. It's obviously a 4-door & was named "Tijuana Taxi". Not long after this, V8 engines were not allowed in that class.

#4 This is obviously a '68 GTO which was running C/S. I assume that would make it RA2 powered. Looks to have "Win Gurney Pontiac" on the side. If I've ever seen a pic of it before, I don't remember it.

#5 This is Dave Pruden's E/S '69 Goat.

#6 I've posted this pic of Dave, as an Indy class winner. Don't know if it was in '73 or not. Didn't get it from Petersen.

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

While lookin thru the Petersen archives for the '72 Indy race, I kept noticing pics of this early '70's T/A.

But, the pics weren't made at the Indy track.

And, although the section was for something that happened in around the 1st of Sept, 1972, the shaker scoop has SD-455 decals on it. But, the 1st year of SD-455 cars were '73 models. Don't think any SD-455 powered Birds would have been sold by Indy race time.

So, I concluded that the Bird in the pics must have been a test car of some type. So, I posted the pics on the PY Pontiac forum, asking for info.

Sure enuff, some of the members were familiar with the car. It was indeed one of the "mule" cars which was used for testing SD-455 engines, and other parts.

The pics show that it had a trunk mounted fuel tank, with the filler neck coming right up thru the trunk lid. Also had lots of small vent holes in the tail panel.

These pics are obviously in b&w. The car was actually gold colored.

Any of ya'll familiar with this car ? :confused:

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

Here's a colored pic of the SD-455 T/A test mule.

It is said that this Bird was later destroyed, rather than being sold. Can't verify.

More info & pics:

https://www.yenko.net/forum/showpost...3&postcount=15

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

2 Pontiac Stocker combos will get a 5hp reduction for next season. These are hp factor reductions NHRA granted, which were requested.

Pont 455 335 330 325 1971 T-37

Pont 455 360 335 330 1970 GTO

(1) Don Turk has the only 455HO powered '71 T-37 Stocker I I know of. It was made famous as the "Super Sleeper", raced by Rock Running, back in the '70's. Then Ken Shawver ran it some. IIRC, I read that Danny Ashley made some upgrades to it. But Don Turk has it now.

(2) Todd Kuhn has the only 455 powered '70 GTO Stocker I know of.

Don't know how much 5hp will help these guys. But, they can at least run the same class, at a slightly lower weight.

Somebody requested a reduction for the '69 GTO 366hp RA3 engine. But that request was denied. Don't know of anybody running this combo, in recent years. Assume the hp factor has never changed from the factory 366hp rating. IMO, it's way too high. The VERY similar 350hp engine has an hp factor of 325hp. That's probably competitive. 366hp is not. I assume somebody wants to race a '69 Judge tribute car, without having to run the rare & expensive RA4 heads.

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

Well, I think I found the answer. The pic below is from the H-O Racing Specialties newsletter. Shows that John Corcoran raced the former Truman Fields GTO, in G/S.

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

Just got this 1st pic. Says that Red Nevins was div 4 Champ in 1965.

His car was a '59, named "Honest Injun".

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

I know I've posted pics of this car here before.

But, I just organized 10 pics, to post on some FB pages & another forum. So, I decided to post 9 of 'em here.

The car is the "Tons-a-Fun" '72 Pontiac Lemans wagon, built by Gary Wood & driven mostly by Charlene Wood.

May have actually been 2 wagons, since some pics show a stock Lemans cap & some show a T-41 cap. Don't know about that.

Some pics show it running I/SA & some H/SA. Gary said they ran both a 455HO & a D-port 455, & ran good with both.

Charlene set records, got class & div wins & won the Grandnationals race in Canada, once. She won the div Stock title at least once & has been inducted into the div 1 hall of fame.

This car & Charlene are a couple of my Pontiac heroes. :cool:

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

Today I asked Charlene some questions about the "Tons-a-Fun", to which she responded with some interesting info.

"...There were 2 wagons and 2 front ends interchangeable for different class combos. I remember Gary adding a third seat to change glass too. They ran in H I J and K/SA but mostly I/SA.
I think Gary played more with the second wagon for different combos.
The first wagon was sold in 1978 and the second was sold 1980 or 81. Sadly neither one exists today

we didn’t have 2 wagons at the same time. Sold the first one and Gary quickly built a second one. The first wagon is the one with the endura front end. My first NHRA number was 1235 and then 11 both on the first wagon. After that we changed my number to 1078. Gary’s number was 1076. Did that because once in a while we would switch cars. Only had to change one number.
I did come up against Gary at a couple races but he was driving the brown firebird
I think the first wagon was a 455HO and to me it had an edge over the second wagon "

That answered some questions I've had about "Ton-a-Fun". Now we all know some of the facts.

Here's a pic of the 1st wagon with #1235 on it, then one with #11 on it, both showing it with the T-41 cap.

In the next 2 pics, the wagon has her last number, 1078, on it, and has a reg Lemans cap on it.

Pic #5 shows their '72 GTO, which Charlene also drove. It also has her #1078 on it.

Pic #6 is Gary's Bird that Charlene mentioned.

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

I have another question for you older racers.

(1) In NHRA, what was the 1st year in which Stockers were allowed to swap out the factory equipped rear end, in favor of a stronger rear end from the same division ? :confused:

By division, I mean like GM, Ford, or Mopar, NOT like Chev, Olds, Buick, Pontiac, etc. .

(2) To make the question more Pontiac specific: What was the 1st year a Pontiac Stocker could legally use a 12-bolt Chevy rear end, in a Pontiac which came from the factory only with a 10-bolt rear end ? :confused:

(3) To be even more specific: What would have been the 1st year in which a 12-bolt Chevy rear end would have been legal in a 1969 Pontiac GTO or Firebird, which came only with an 8.2" 10-bolt rear end ? :confused:

(4) When the year is established, would somebody look the new rule up in that year's NHRA rule book & post the exact wording of the rule ?

Thanks for help with this ! :)

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

I dug out the box of 1972 National Dragsters. The Summer nationals issue says "Fields was disqualified for piston modifications while runner-up Mayo's downfall was in the intake system"

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

Thanks. Can you post up a picture of the National Records shown in that issue?


Stan

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

only 3 Stock ET records listed: All other classes at the class minimum

C/SA 13.36 Dave Benisek 72 Buick
J/SA 15.89 Les Young 66 Chevy

M/S 16.45 Tom Gould 66 Corvair

Tom

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

"...only 3 Stock ET records listed: All other classes at the class minimum..."

'72 was the year NHRA completely changed the Stock rules & weight breaks. No headers or soft tires. All class records were set at a minimum, & remained that way 'til somebody set 'em. The weight breaks were changed again in '73. So, I assume they set all the class records to minimums, again.

I think there was a 10 year old model limit. So the older cars, like the tri-5 Chevy models, which had dominated Jr. Stock, were no longer allowed to run in Stock. Some which continued to race switched to SS.

These new NHRA Stock rules did not go over real big with lots of guys. Thankfully, by '75, the rules were more reasonable. Headers & 9" slicks were legal.

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

Need some help with an ID.

Found this pic of a Pontiac Ventura, with a div 4 number, 4750.

Seems I remember coming across the name Raymond Simmons, somewhere. I wanna say he lived in Arkansas & had a Pontiac Stocker.

Bout all I get from a search here is Sterling Simmons.

Can anybody ID this car/driver ? :confused:

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

Interesting picture. If you look closely you will see Arlen Vanke's name on the window behind the car. Anyone know what years this might be?


Stan

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

"...Anyone know what years this might be? "

Dealers usually didn't race a car more than one season.

So, I'd say the pic was taken in late '62 or '63.

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

Sorry can't help with a driver name, but there is a few interesting things about this photo. There is no travel the n the front end, the driver's helmet is far back on his head, and Buster and the rest of the starting line crew seem to be watching closely.

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

Well, I went to my files & pulled it up close. Best i can tell, the helmet position looks correct to me, unless the driver has his head down, lookin at the floor.

Buster appears to me, to be lookin at something farther down track. Can't really tell what the other guys are lookin at. Makes sense they'd be lookin at the closest car makin noise.

But, I'm certainly no expert.

Would really like to know about the car/driver tho.

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

Old Skool it looks like you were correct on the name looking at this entry list from the 1975 Sportsnationals. I still think his helmet looks high on his head

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

Yeah, looks like the name, number, & state are correct. But he's listed driving an E/S Camaro. Could be lots of reasons for that.

But former Pontiac racer Rock Running is on the list, with his '71 T-37. It's still active, with current owner, Don Turk.

Thanks for posting the list ! :)

Speakin of Rock Running, I just got a pic of his big Pontiac that also had his "Super Sleeper" name on it.

Knew he had one, but had never seen a pic.

Also got a pic of the Hunt '72 GTO, which I didn't have. It has Dale E. Hunt on the window.

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

Raymond Simmons must have ran the Ventura after the Camaro, he held the 1979 N/S record with it.

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

WOW !

THANKS so much for posting that !!! :)

It shows that the record was set at Laplace. That was a track near New Orleans. We ran our '68 Bird Stocker there once in '75. My girlfriend was driving. She got a trophy for the E/SA class win. We'd also run State Capitol at Baton Rouge, the night before, where she'd also won E/SA.. I probably wouldn't remember this little bit of trivia, but she recorded it in our racing scrap book.

It was significant to us because it was our first built-from-scratch Stocker, & it was the 1st time the car ran in the 12's. We also have a pic of those 2 E/SA win trophies in the scrapbook.

We also took the Bird & my '69 GTO Stocker to the '75 points race @ Laplace. But, Wesley pointed out a few very small items that were not legal, which I couldn't fix away from home. So we just watched, then came home. THAT incident was a big reason why I never tried to run Stock again after that season. I've noticed that Stock tech has gotten a LOT looser in recent years.

Back to that nat record list. The McKinney '68 Firebird held the E/S record.

And Rock Running's '71 T-37 held the E/SA record.

Where do you get all this info ? Is this a list you copied from an old ND paper ? Wish I had all the ND papers from those old days, so I could look up stuff & post it without having to bother anyone else.

BUT, since I DON"T. I REALLY appreciate it when someone here will help me look up stuff.THANKS to everybody here who has & will help me lookup stuff from the past !!!! :)

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

PM sent

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

Thanks !

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

Need for someone to look up some info for me.

This is a pic of a newspaper clipping from 1997.

The pic caption appears to indicate that Mike McKinney won Stock Elim @ the '77 Gator Nats.

Nat event results I have don't show a Gators win for Mike, in '77 or the next few years after that.

http://www.nhra.net/50th/results.asp?mYear=1977

I'm thinkin maybe he was E/S class champ @ the Gators, in that Bird, in some year ?

OR, maybe the article was referring to Mike's '77 US Nats win, but showed a pic of the car at the Gators, running a different class.


Can anybody help me with the correct info here ? :confused:

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

Once again, if I've already brought this up, ya'll will just have to forgive me.

I was just lookin thru the nat event winners lists. In 1988, the US Nats Stock winner is listed as Ken Shawver.

http://www.nhra.net/50th/results.asp?mYear=1988

I assume he was driving the former Rock Running "Super Sleeper" '71 T-37.

So, does anybody know if this is correct ? :confused:

If so, is this the last time a Pontiac powered car won Stock @ the US Nats ? :confused:

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

Here's another thing I may have mentioned. Don't remember.

A Pontiac won Stock, @ the 2000 Pontiac Excitement Nats. At that race, the top 3 qualifiers were all Pontiac powered. :cool:

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2000#indextop

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2000#indextop

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

Just got some info on the former Truman Fields '72 SS GTO.

It came from a March '76 H-O Racing Specialties newsletter.

John Corcoran was the owner/driver.

So, it ran 12.20's in 1975. Wonder what the G/S index was ?

Also wonder exactly what the nat records were that it set ?

If anyone can answer either of the above questions, please do so.

I assume the '72 rec was in SS, when Truman was running it. But, I think '72 was the only year he ran it. Don't know if anybody else ran it in SS, or not. :confused

So, the major performance stats for 1975 were:

(1) Two nat records

(2) G/S class win @ the SPORTSnationals

(3) G/S class RU @ the US Nats

The points earned are mostly due to driver skill. But, I'd say it was a pretty good season for car & driver

Here's the '75 Stock records thru June. So, if John held the G/S record, it must have been either before or after June, or both.

http://classracer.com/classforum/sho...42&postcount=1

But I did notice that Mick Leiferman held the G/SA rec & Charlene Wood held the I/SA record. Looks like Mick was a record holder for 5 years straight.

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

I must have missed it in the article. Where did it say this was the former Truman Fields car?


Stan

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

Didn't mention it in the article. Here are 6 pics that prove it to me, coupled with what John said about the nat records.

I questioned this earlier, when I read that the '72 record was in SS & the '74 & '75 recs were in Stock. This answers it for me. The only year Truman drove it was in '72. Pic #6 shows that he set an mph record with it, which had to be in '72.

Here's a quote from the Drag Race Central article.

"...Pontiac Motor Division...asked him to be a part of their 1972 factory drag team. Pontiac provided Truman with a new 1972 Firebird and a new 1972 GTO to race in Stock and Super Stock Eliminator, respectively...Although Truman liked racing the newer Pontiacs, he really loved his ‘68 Firebird. 1973 found him back racing his old reliable..."

We know he raced the GTO, in '72. Have never seen any pics of evidence that he ever raced the '72 Bird. May have been because of the strange new '72 Stock rules. Don't know.

I thought it was kind of odd that somebody would paint a car up to get it ready to sell, but leave a huge Motor Wheel decal on it. You'll notice that the decal is on the car in the same place in every pic of the car. Too many things match for it to be a coincidence, IMO.

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

Thanks.


Stan

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

Ney Oldskool - would you have a pic of Hart’s or Battelle’s cars?

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

No. Not familiar with those names.

But, they were CA cars. So, if I was gonna make a serious effort to dig up more info on 'em, I'd contact someone with ties to Pontiac racing in that area & time period.

With that in mind, I'd try to contact Tommy Brown. I think I read that he is kin to Gene Brown. As you may know, Gene ran a '58 Pontiac & was also associated with Ramon Lowe, who ran several Pontiacs.

I don't have contact info for Tommy. He may have seen some of those old guys run. Don't know his age. He runs a '74 Lemans Stocker.

For contact info about current, and maybe some older Pontiac racers in CA, I'd contact Leo Glasbrenner @ Remac Transmissions. When I called, he was there & gave me all the info I asked for.

John Schloe is an older, long time Pontiac racer, who may have seen those guys race. May have even raced with 'em. He & his son Ryan still race Pontiac Stockers.

Then there is the Aceves Family. Bob Aceves ran a real strong '68 Bird Stocker, up until a very few years ago. I talked to his brother, or one of the Aceves guys to see if that car was for sale. They are older guys, therefore may know some of the older Pontiac racers.

Art Peterson is an older guy who has been racing the same '69 GTO in SS, for a long time. He probably knows lots of the older CA racers.

Another older long time Pontiac racer is Lindy Lindholm. Have a pic of his '58, way back in the old days.

Larry Maxwell is another long time Pontiac guy, who is still racing.

And, there's John Angeles. He's had drag Pontiacs for years, & co-wrote a couple of Pontiac books. Don't have his contact info. But his daughter Keri has been driving the '69 SS Bird for many years. Here's a link to her FB page. She may have contact info for a LOT of CA Pontiac racers. Probably knew 'em all for the last 30 years or more.

https://www.facebook.com/keri.pari

That should get you some leads. Among all these people there is probably someone who saw those guys race, or knows someone who did. May be able to track down some relatives who may still have pics of the cars.

I ASSUME the NHRA division 7 office MIGHT give you contact info for current div seven permanent number holders, if you tell 'em why you need the info. Not sure tho.

In case you need 'em, here are the last perm numbers I have for some of the CA Pontiac drivers.

Keri Angeles Pari - #788

Art Peterson - #7318

Lindy Lindholm #754

John Schloe - #7003

Tommy Brown - #7265

Bob Aceves - #746

Larry Maxwell - #770