Re: Automatic Horsepower Factoring System
 

Lynn, Maybe with time Nhra will accept TOP/STK and TOP/SS and a couple wt breaks as Heads up at points meets as well as Opens Then people who like that will have a choice . Dick

Re: Automatic Horsepower Factoring System
 

Jim,

I also think a 2-3 tenth reduction of the indexes is a good answer. I think that is probably the direction that it will go, however, I would like more input, before trying to push something through. But those who I have spoken to so far seem to agree. On the other end of that, I'm sure the very small percentage of racers who are hovering on the current indexes can do some easy things that to find the same 2-3 tenths.

Evan

Re: Automatic Horsepower Factoring System
 

ok put index to -.3
and go back to 1.00 under triggers

Re: Automatic Horsepower Factoring System
 

I was around back in the '80's when NHRA added 2 tenths to all the indexes. One reason given by NHRA was because there were always about 4 or 5 racers at the bottom of the ladder that were struggling to be able to run the number and it would also lower the hurdle for new racers to get involved.
After about a year it was the same guys that were struggling to make it under again.

Re: Automatic Horsepower Factoring System
 

actually i think it was in 93 they raised them...but i am with Jim B. give those .2 back + another one for starters.. .5 would work to even better in the long run! and have a group of individuals(not racers) to manually clear up the the ones that will be to far ahead,,

Re: Automatic Horsepower Factoring System
 

If the sandbagging and fear of running fast is what people are complaining about how will lowering the index help?Would the trigger be lowered too? Does that do anything? except make a number less under. Does it affect the HP problem some cars show?

Re: Automatic Horsepower Factoring System
 

This isn't a numbers game in a casino. Lower what ever you want. The fast will still be as far under and the bogus hp factors will still be bogus.

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Lowering the indexes by .30 is the fair and honest solution for everyone. National events are all run affairs any way.

Re: Automatic Horsepower Factoring System
 

Bruce, You state lowering the index .3 is the "solution". What is the problem? If it the fear of being factored then yes. If it is to make the Bogus Hp combinations better controlled, NO no effect. Moving the trigger will not effect it either...
The current "problem" appears to be that it does not sort out Fast cars from hard work by extensive numbers of cars and hard working numbers of racers from one off Bogus cars discovered by Book work. Yes theses cars have work too but they start out soft for multiple reasons mainly being just allowed as they are in the book.This needs to be addressed by the Committee.
Require a person to file a letter of intent to run a combo before they dig out the 50 year old 2 x4 manifolds and make a mockery of the factoring system. Common sense initial factoring should be required. The same holds for new stuff with exotic technology allowed as a way to get new cars into the eliminator by unreasonable low expectations on numbers for HP.

Re: Automatic Horsepower Factoring System
 

I am one of those racers that used to be close to the index, and with some work have managed to get faster. Recently I tried some newer components and have managed to get back to square one, only running about 3 tenths under. I know of other racers that sometimes are near the indexes. I DO NOT LIKE THE IDEA OF LOWERING THE INDEXES. It does nothing except help the people that run very fast from getting horsepower. The lowering of indexes was done to bring more people into the category, not to punish people from going too fast. There are so many bogus combos, parts, etc. that need to be addressed first. The AHFS cannot work as long as these things exist. Fast guys are jamming on the brakes to protect their HP, and NHRA keeps telling you to stop it because it is a safety thing. But do they enforce it, NO. I can't tell you how much smoke I have seen comming off the front tires of people trying to make it close with my 14 second slug at the finish line, What happens, they are told "if you do that again we are going to DQ you" Do they ever get DQ'd , NO, it's a bunch of bull. I watch cars from the stands at the finish line and see so much sand bagging it's disgusting. This is a performance based category, and it has turned into a circus. No one wants to go too fast, but they want to be the fastest. A bunch of bull.

NHRA needs to start tracking every run and all incremintal times from the 60' to the finish line to detemine what the vehicles really are capable of. They need to implement a system that accounts for weather and altitude tracks, and I know it can be done with todays technology. They need to start enforing their own interpretation of the rules they made. When some guy out in the middle of nowhere hits your combo with a fast run, you get penalized even though there are differences in the two combos. Is that fair, no a bunch of bull. Someone goes out and goes 1.50 under and is immediatelly hit with HP. Are they torn down first to make sure it was legit? If they are legit then they deserve HP because it was factored wrong in the first place. Superceded parts are another joke, it's given to some but not others, and you wonder why the AHFS is not working. I read where people have a varied view of the way things should be done, lower the indexes, lower the trigger, leave it alone, allow certain things, .50 under to win class, more teardowns, no paper cars, give us more parts, STOP IT.
There is nothing wrong with the current indexes. Eliminate the trigger system, let the fast cars go fast, stop the sand bagging, enforce the rules correctly, this is Stock Eliminator, a PERFORMANCE BASED category. If you want more liberal rules or parts, go to Super Stock.

Ron Ortiz
U/SA .3 under and still competitive.

Re: Automatic Horsepower Factoring System
 

Ron Ortiz, You are correct on all the issues you have addressed. You did not address how to adjust the factoring on those weakly factored cars which would Dominate if no for of AHFS at all were present.
The hope is the AHFS could be a "hands off" way to adjust HP but forgets the human component of the driver. The driver can "choose " to sandbag, put in wt, use the brakes if everything is left alone. With NO system to adjust of any kind class racing would become very biased to Bogus Hp cars.... Not just the hard working guys or the popular well worked combinations. Some people live to be #1 qualifier .Some might say using the "ratings game" for an underfactored car motor is a weaknes of the racing.

Re: Automatic Horsepower Factoring System
 

Ofcourse the trigger has to remain for it to have any effect....but i guess a higher trigger would have the same effect...but com'on...should we maybe ask for adding .5 to the index? then you could probably run the index with with your daily driver or a rental...(maybe we just could fly in to those big money "Bracket Races)use the same car back and forward to the motel ..and also ..you would not need to have any gear with you...with todays costs..sounds good? Seriously if someone have problems running -.50 today..you A: aren't doing anything right with your combo(aka.working as hard as you should) B: have a combo thats wrongly factored. We should not use the Index to settle those arguments!
I think it's looks really stupid from the outside these days when everone is trying to hit -1.14 in qualifying..and many have to lift heavily,have a couple of hundred pounds extra with them or other strange tune ups!

p.s Its seems like many people think you should be guaranteed to run under the index nowdays...why is that?

Re: Automatic Horsepower Factoring System
 

The argument is to make the indexes harder, not softer BSA.

Evan

Re: Automatic Horsepower Factoring System
 

Automatic Help for Slugs CANNOT and WILL NOT EVER WORK... heard that from me for 4 years now eh ??

the system is flawed in that it cannot evaluate the POTENTIAL of any combination, it SIMPLY deals with data from previous runs which have TWO qualities that it CANNOT factor in... 1. the weather conditions and 2. the fact we can manipulate the data ourselves... END OF STORY.

we didnt like it when FARMER would give out horsepower at his sole descretion, and we didnt like the committees... but at least there was an intelligent (supposedly) being involved > not a bunch of skewed facts and a ten page rule that god cant understand (which can and does change without rhyme or reason).

i do not have the solution... but i KNOW the AHFS cant and wont ever work, we are just beating a dead horse !!!

jack mccarthy

and if they cant see that the indexes are so soft CHARMIN is considering them for a advertising campaign i dont know what to say... we have been GIVEN over 1/2 second of enhancements since they last RAISED the indexes... get real guys... lower them .50, trigger at 1.00 and lets race !!!!!

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It's hard for me to say this, but I agree with Ed on that one:confused: I poured quite a few heads in my machine shop days. Mostly S.B. Chevy's and 12 cc's ain't happenin, and not "by accident" at least as far as the Chevy's are concerned.....they ain't even close to the NHRA numbers.....I poured my LT-1 before I put it together 2 years ago...guess what.....same deal! Well under the spec......

Re: Automatic Horsepower Factoring System
 

Dick,

Lots of performance changes by nhra and a stone wall to run into when you make the accepted changes. That's the problem.

Geeezz Jack where the devil have you been? There have been a ton of posts that you could have jumped on since your last post.

Re: Automatic Horsepower Factoring System
 

Hey Bruce, all you have to do to get The Captain on here is bring up the AHFS. He really shows his emotional side.
By eliminating the trigger all you have to do is look at how quick the car in question went under. Does it need to be looked at closer and maybe inspected internally? Probably.
NHRA has added enough of stuff for individuals to run quicker than their indexes than they did in the past two years. But the indexes are not that soft, yes they are if you want to spend the big bucks to keep up with the Jonses though. Hey, did'nt they just allow more work to be allowed to heads?

BSA, my car is a '67 Belvedere wagon with a 273 ci 2bbl. The index is 15.15. Do any of you out there think that a car like that from the showroom could run a 15.15. NO, probably a 19 to 20 second might be appropiate, so by blueprinting, adding a gear and headers, beefing up the trans, getting down to minimum weight, and adding a stock lift cam, you might get to the index. If you can get a rental car or a daily driver to hit the index right off the bat, you definitley have hit upon a great combo, or it really needs HP.

You guys out there need to quit thinking about lowering the indexes, and start looking at the other end of the speed spectrum, thats where the problem exists. The slower end of cars are'nt doing any harm to the fast guys, it's the fast guys against the really fast guys.

Ron Ortiz
U/SA I need more money, please send me some, and I will lower the index

Re: Automatic Horsepower Factoring System
 

No i dont think that..just trying to be a little ironic...I didn't run the index for years when i started out(it was lower then ofcourse) but if someone only can get .3 under with todays standards and knowledge and been doing this for awhile it seems to me that they just wanna hang in there with as little effort as possible or have a totally wrong factored car....neither of those should be what dictate what the standards for a index should be...I agree that the stuff needs to be policed better to keep it fair for those who get hp when someone breaks the standards..BUT THIS IS to my best knowledge STILL a PERFORMANCE BASED eliminator..so the lower end should not be whats setting the standards for indexes and such! When the dial under bracket format was implemented it was to even out performance differences at the time,not to make it a bracket race!

Re: Automatic Horsepower Factoring System
 

Well said Bsa!!!!!! Ididn't run the index when Istarted also. I watched Bobby Warrens bumber for years! Still am.

Re: Automatic Horsepower Factoring System
 

I was thinking that practice is boring. Bring what you brung and hope you brung enough. Heads up it in practice. If you dont want to, then use it as a practice run. Either way the fans will like it....oh..wait a minute...all the fans are at the NMCA heads up race!

50 lbs extra for an aftermarket block, 100lbs at least for aftermarket or replacement heads, 100lbs extra for bogus combos. ;);):):)

Re: Automatic Horsepower Factoring System
 

Jack,...yes and you have been wrong for 4 years.:):) You are right about correcting all the runs it is simply retarded they dont do that. Manipulation by man sticks out like a sore thumb on a spread sheet. Random events look way different. This stuff is so simple they teach it all in high school.

Re: Automatic Horsepower Factoring System
 

Lynn, I respectfully ask why you continually bring up the aftermarket parts ? Cars are getting faster....for many reasons.

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The sanctioning bodies raised the index due to low car counts or for whatever reason. However, they have not "given" us anything in the way of faster parts. All this has been an attempt to appease some people or a group of people who basically couldn't or wouldn't put in the time and money to be fast legally. Threats of legal action, lack of 1 year vacations, DQ's, etc. is what has added to this problem. I have heard all the safety concerns, the lack of available castings, blocks that won't hold up at .060 over. All this crap is what has led to the 5k stocker heads and 10k ss heads etc. Look at the clarification of the crankshaft rule recently. Look at the crossbreeding of parts, the bearing spacers, any carb # as long as the holes are the right size. And most recently any trans. Who asked for any of those things? Those that couldn't be fast using the rules that were in the joke of a rulebook. Subject to over riding or changing or amending as soon as the "right" person or customers couldn't pass tech.

Do what you will with the indexes. I still will prefer heads up anyday.

Pinks (joke) even has the common sense to look at incremental times when one of their guys runs faster than in previous rounds. Factoring isn't really all that hard at all. You just have to have the desire to factor everyone fairly.

Re: Automatic Horsepower Factoring System
 

This isn't a faster guys against the slower guys issue. Lowering the indexes will not have a negative impact on the category. IHRA is way ahead of nhra on this issue. They have lots of different combinations in their Stock category and we don't hear any complaints about their system.

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BSA, I understand what you're saying, I may only be .3 under now, but a year ago I finally got to .8 under, and was real happy, that is until I ran Bob Shaw in Belle Rose and got to see his time on the scoreboards as I was trailing him with a . 5 under. Hey Boudreau, that ever happen to you with Bobby? I used to think that if I invest more money and applied newer technology that I could be one of the fastest, but in reality, it's just not going to happen, there are other cars in U/SA that are just way too fast. Lets see, there is the Buicks, the Dodges with more CFM, The Captains T/SA, the Monte Carlo's, hi Jonathan, Wong's 2 door, Myers flying under the radar, Remmington's scienced out car, Clayton and The Maestro, anything that Billy Nees might come up with, the Banana cars out of Alabama, Summertons wagon, and good old Bob Shaw pick of the week. I could spend thousands of dollars and still not be able to run with some of these cars. So should I put my nose to the grindstone and prove to these people that I still cannot run with them, or do I just admit that I have chosen the wrong combination. Neither, I race because I enjoy it, I just have to avoid the other U cars. When I chose this combo I researched the Classification Guide and found this combo very lucrative at that time. I did'nt realize that later in time they would allow some of these other combos. The fact of the matter is that indexes have nothing to do with anything other than being the base for a trigger. Get rid of the triggers and inspect the cars that are really flying, it will level out in the long run. I am for this performance based category, I just know where I need to be to be competitive.

Ron Ortiz
U/SA plese send more money so I can go 1.14 under

Re: Automatic Horsepower Factoring System
 

And i see what'ya saying too Ron..I think we all race these category's because we enjoy them more than others..even Biondo,Fletcher and such guys that win "all the money"! With that said it seems that you lost the urge of going faster with your combo wich is why most of us are doing this in the first place,to measure ourselves and our work with our "favorite" car,but thats OK too..most of us are gonna be beat up by another combo thats bougus or maybe not factored right anyway,(or we think is not factored as it should),..AND THATS WHY something has to be done...raise the trigger would have the same effect,but that will never happen or if it does it will only be by a thent and will have no effect! We need a bigger "window" right now so we hopefully could see what combos that are holding back more than others,get teched for going fast and maybe maybe things would even out a little bit in the future.
..one more thing.. even if they would have policed things better in the past we would still be alot faster now then we were 15 years ago..so a index cut of .2 - .3 should'nt be a problem for almost anyone,but with todays travelling cost and NHRA having problem filling the fields maybe they will go the other way and make it easier to run the index...whoknows?

Re: Automatic Horsepower Factoring System
 

Uh......you are joking right? If we are going to have a performance oriented class of race cars, then some kind of resemblance of parody should exist right? Otherwise why do it?

The after market parts game puts combos on top that the AHFS by its very design keeps them there due to the invalid statistical methods employed.

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You dont really believe this do you? How fast would a Hemi or BBC be with all the OEM castings and stock deck heights? I doubt if any of them could run below 9 seconds. How many examples do you want(not just to pick on my BBM and BBC friends)?

I think if everyone had to run OEM intake runner sizes(the real ones), and all OEM castings, it would a much different story.

Re: Automatic Horsepower Factoring System
 

Lynn, feel free to quote me at any time, however, don't leave out "the rest of the story".

You feel that superceeded parts or freebies are unfair unless given to all. I agree with you 100%!

No I don't think that the sanctioning bodies have "given" us anything. I think that constant whining, politics, and playing favorites have resulted in a mess.

*As for being faster after 15 years. I would think that anyone with the mechancial ability could make his combo faster with 15 years worth of testing and still follow the rulebook to the letter.

*Also, when tech is not allowed to do their job 90% of the time, I don't think that you will ever enforce a rulebook.

Re: Automatic Horsepower Factoring System
 

sorry double post......

Re: Automatic Horsepower Factoring System
 

Amen, Brother.

Re: Automatic Horsepower Factoring System
 

How about lowering the indexes by 2 tenths, making the review trigger 1 second under and a automatic review at 1.15 under. An automatic review would have factors such as atmospheric condition of the run before the horsepower increase is levied.

Re: Automatic Horsepower Factoring System
 

Byron,

I agree 100%, where do we vote.......It is simple and can be effective..........Dave,

Re: Automatic Horsepower Factoring System
 

Byron

What you are asking for is ALMOST what we have now.
"Lower indexes by .2"..... and "review at -1.00"
They now review at -1.15 (with two hits now)... you're proposal is the same as reviewing at -1.20 (now).
How does this help?

Tom

Re: Automatic Horsepower Factoring System
 

the only way you are going to get the super fast cars is to
start looking and comparing 1/8 mile times to the guys who
are running flat out.
Take the 2 tenths off of the index and anyone running 1 sec.
under the index gets hit. Even if it's only one run.

Re: Automatic Horsepower Factoring System
 

This is why I asked you the question and not assume you took that position. Your posts have always been pretty informative and right on. However, I still dont get the meaning of your post. The written word sometimes takes more explanation. Sometimes we try to be brief and to the point, but the true points get misconstrued by the reader. Please explain that post further.

I am very proud of combos that have all OEM parts running 7-9 uinder without 70HP off their combos. Those are the true heros of SS and S. Even some of those HPs are bogus due to the Big 3 changing to SAE chassis dyno rating system to post 1972 engines.

Re: Automatic Horsepower Factoring System
 

It is similar but I think it will diminish some sandbagging. The trigger would still be 2 runs. The big thing is bringing down the "automatic review" by .05. I don't think it is the cure but a step in the right direction.

Re: Automatic Horsepower Factoring System
 

We cant keep hitting combos all the time...we need a bigger window!! some times it would be better adjusting some combo's the other way instead of hitting the rest!!

Re: Automatic Horsepower Factoring System
 

What do you do when we get conditions like we had at Atco -500ft. Then you get a heads up run and you go 140 under. I could have driven my pick up there and run a second under with it. Barry

Re: Automatic Horsepower Factoring System
 

Maybe the above statement is the answer....If a car is that much faster than the others in the class, and proven to be totally legal...why should it be given HP? Only given HP if it is factored bogus...

The AHFS in reverse would work better, or something like that...then the sand bagging would be eliminated......