Re: Single channel O2
 

Paul,
The water and a few other issues was what I was leading to when talking about tuning with DA. Have you ever run in a tree shrouded track? (does that bring to mind the Temple Tx track for anyone?) Trees make Oxygen... That throws off all the data collected at other tracks without abundant trees. Years ago Bristol was that way. It was an altitude track that was surrounded by trees. I Couldn't tune there. It had altitude, but wasn't responding to an altitude tune. Then Nickens showed me an oxygen meter. It has been many years since I was there, but I think the trees are long gone and it tunes like an altitude track, now.
As for the Detonation, it isn't a clean burn. All sorts of bad happenings in the combustion chamber. Rings knocked loose, oil gets in and is part of the combustion process, ect, ect. How can a sensor read it as a clean burn and tell you what the A/F ratio is. Remember that combustion is a chemical reaction. When Clean combustion takes place the chemicals present are not the same as what is present when there is detonation. (uncontrolled chemical reaction)

Re: Single channel O2
 

G,day Adger,
okay mate i understand what you are getting at with the detonation.
Thank you!
Cheers
Paul

Re: Single channel O2
 

Adger
If we do not watch we are going to tell our age. I too have seen my world change when I built the Tech Edge out of Australia. Was the first O2 I had seen but it was the tip of the ice berg. And you are correct on data overload. My dyno has 46 channels to log data. Hell when I make a pull Im thru for the day just to look at data and make decisions. My brain aint got but one channel and most of the time it goes in the wrong direction. And man are you ever correct on detonation. No way will I tune by O2 alone. Very often I will not even make a pull on the dyno unless the weather makes a change.

Re: Single channel O2
 

Paul
I first thought of PM you but I decided that this should be a forum that we share and learn from. So what I will express is my observation and opinions. I hope some one can add to it and I learn even more. Yes I am aware that some people can have a dim view of someones else's opinion that differs from theirs but most of the time disagreements leads to more learning, and damn I need more learning. I am very aware, at my age, that my best learning is behind me and my most to learn is ahead of me but my ability to retain said information has decreased substantially. Thank goodness for notes. -=---Adger;;You must use the same honing oil that I do. The wife told me to strip off before I came In the house last nite. I really thought I was going to get lucky with my closthes off but she had my shower on when I got inside. HeHaw--
Yes I have tried the Daytona EgoIII or Wego or what ever it is and like every unit I have tried , some part I like well, some parts was Ok, and some parts I did not like. I never could find the resolution but I figure it must be a 12 bit by an accuracy of .1afr (again their number--I did not check). I did not like a total of 8000 bits. I want every data point and then I do with the data what I want. And as a result I dumped all data points into another data logger and finessed the data the way I wanted. I really like a unit to be accurate but what I want more than anything is one that will repeat time after time even after the sensor starts to slow down(which it will). That is one reason I want every data point. Then I can tell when the sensor is going away.. If you want more data I will try to help but there may be others on here that can help more than myself. Maybe I can learn from them. But let me get my note pad first. I did like it to run methanol. Great for that
charles

Re: Single channel O2
 

G,day Charles,
Thanks very much for the reply!
When you finish checking out that 14point 7 unit would you mind giving me some feedback and your opinion on it, just had a look on their site and by the look of it it does some nice things, would like to be able to log some other inputs as well as it looks like it has a lot longer recording time.
Thanks very much!
Paul Dilley

Re: Single channel O2
 

Subtract 8% at the RPM that is 13.3 to get 12.5. Some guys have 1000' tunes, 2000' tunes, etc. Many simply adjust fuel pressure. 1 to 2 psi per 1000' is pretty common.

Re: Single channel O2
 

Ed & Michael

Michael: Do you have internal Data Logging?

Ed: Used to run the Accell Gen 6 Alpha N. Drove me up the wall when moving from track to track. The best info I ever got was to have a map for each Baro reading you will see. Had some other issues with EFI and have since made wholesale changes for the better.

Re: Single channel O2
 

Frank, I run mine in speed density mode. Almost nobody else does. I set my maps to 3 Kpa and 500 RPM break points. It runs off a different row when the baro changes. It takes a while to run it in that many different conditions, but once you have it pretty much adjusts it's self. Everybody else I know uses Alpha N. It's for sure simpler.

Re: Single channel O2
 

"Frank, I run mine in speed density mode. Almost nobody else does. I set my maps to 3 Kpa and 500 RPM break points. It runs off a different row when the baro changes. It takes a while to run it in that many different conditions, but once you have it pretty much adjusts it's self. Everybody else I know uses Alpha N. It's for sure simpler."

Am now using Fast XFI 2.0 Set it up on chassis dyno to run Speed Density. Last weekend tried Load Based Speed Density but will more likely go back this weekend. Your comment about needing to let it see different conditions over time makes sense.
Many are using Alpha N for simplicity but if you go on the right chassis dyno (tuner) your high gear map will be good from the start. All the runs and data logging necessary to get close will cost you more than the day on the dyno!!!

The issue am having a lean spike when it leaves (footbraking) Then it goes rich and then lean again. Tough deciding how much acceleration enrichment is too much or not enough, and with the short time it takes to go from stage RPM to stall to shift point, exactly which cells in the map need to be leaner and richer. Considering the delay that has to exist from the actually event, when the O2 sees the ex gas plus the electronic delays. On the data log the event is well under 2 seconds. Even with my slow s**t.

Re: Single channel O2
 

Frank, when you play your log back, if you will pull up your fuel map, put it at the top, make it about half the screen size, then the log at the bottom, when you click the left arrow to scroll through it, there will be a "bubble" appear on the cell the ECU is looking at as you scroll through it. I don’t use load indexed speed density, that always goes to the top row, just like AlphaN. I mean regular speed density, Baro changes your manifold vacuum and MAP values. Load indexed will not. May as well use AlphaN as that, imho. On the dyno all you can do is tune for the weather that day. The Great Bend Kansas points race recently is the first time mine has used the 3rd row down in the map. Start out with 2% difference per row, dropping as you go down, in the top 3 or 4 rows of the fuel map for a starting place. Won't be all that far off. When you tune in different air, just tune the row at which it's looking. Your numbers will be bigger around the torque peak. That is normal. Leave the already tuned cells alone. Then log driving down the return road, with it warmed up. Shoot for about 14-1 to 14.5-1 there. Mine likes to leave in the mid-12s. Yours may be different. The return road tuning should also apply to AlphaN. That part can be done on a variable load dyno. A couple of feet of collector extension will make idle and low speed tuning accurate. Open collector will causes bogus lean numbers. Might look right, but hardly ever are.

Re: Single channel O2
 

Thanks Ed

Am using the data log as you say. One mistake have been making is tuning top 4 rows together. Same number stacked in each RPM cell. Not giving it a chance to tune itself.

The initial load at launch as tried to describe above has to be affecting my 300 #s as it is going very lean - very fat - very lean and then to target AF ratio. The only time it sees this RPM range (2500 - 5000) is at launch. With this converter never below 5050 in the worst air in any other gear.

Re: Single channel O2
 

Frank, leave from a very low RPM to get a better look and more launch data. Footbraking, you can leave from an idle, if the initial rich spot moves or leaves you were seeing A.E. (like accelerator pump) fuel, so ignore that. Starting lower than you will ever leave racing will allow you to clean it up better.
In AlphaN mode the top three or four rows would be the same.

Good luck, Ed

Re: Single channel O2
 

Thanks Ed!!

Re: Single channel O2
 

I was talking to one of my buddies at Comp about this thread and got this e-mail from him. Since it is Comp's policy that employees don't get involved with internet forums I hope I don't get him in trouble by posting it for all to see. I thought it was good info.

Quote:
You might want to suggest to Michael that if he is running in Alpha-N, he needs to try his program in open loop. Alpha-N ties the ECU to the TPS and tunes more like a carburetor that way without influence by the O2. Then use the O2 to track the results and make changes to his fuel map. Most of the Super Stockers I know of do not hesitate to go into the 13:1+ range with no damage. The Comp cars are forced into the 12.5-12.8 range because of the compression, but where there is very little………….

Also, there is a FAST option right in the catalog that is Digital Air/Fuel Meter RPM Module (part number 170536) that allows engine RPM to overlay the A/F ratio readings with an existing or new single or dual A/F meter during playback. "End Quote"

I hope this can help.....

Re: Single channel O2
 

I hope Michael is not trying to run his in Closed Loop. If he is I missed that part. Might sound like a cool idea, but I have yet seen one run as quick or consistent as in open loop. I tried that also. It was constantly chasing it's tail. I don't think the ECU can make corrections fast enough for a decently quick race car. Everytime I've put someone's car in open loop it has picked up. Some guys just can't accept that, and insist it has to be better "because it always corrects it's self". About like drive by wire is better. LOL

Re: Single channel O2
 

I just have it in closed loop in these early stages while I try to get the fuel map in the ballpark. At least if I get it too lean, it tries to richen it back up toward the Target A/F so I'm less likely to hurt something. I actually got things pretty close to where I wanted them at Maryland last week. Once I'm comfy with my general setup, I'll go back to open loop.

My biggest question marks currently are around the driveability/staging/launch area. Right now it's reading lean driving around the pits, real rich around launch in order to cover up any launch stumble (I know this really needs to be done rather with the acceleration enrichment deal, but I need to gain a better understanding of its use in practice. I understand that it's like an accelrator pump shot, but like everything else, I'm just trying to get a handle on what the numbers mean and "how much is how much?").

I've done a little reading in different forums, and seems like they're saying I should be around 14.5 or so driving around the pits (low TPS, low rpm). I've heard some people say they've got it CRAZY lean at launch rpm (doesn't sound like a good idea to me, don't want to hurt something), and others say a hair on the rich side (12.5). Again, as far as downtrack performance, this thing just flat hits a wall at 13.3 and won't get out of its own way unless I richen it up. In total, this thing just gobbles fuel.

Oh, one other (unrelated?) issue I'm having is that about once every 8-10 starts, the starter's kicking back. Never did that with the old motor, and all the other times, it fires right up almost instantly.

I don't have internal logging set up just yet, but have logged some runs via the laptop in testing.

Re: Single channel O2
 

Michael, you really need the internal data logger working. Open collectors will give you bogus lean numbers at idle and very low speeds. If you want to email me I can send you instruction for wiring it up.
You don't need the logger for this: If you have a muffler that you can slip on the collector, or add an 18" or so extension, you will get accurate air/fuel data. In closed loop you can just repeatedly tap the L key on hour key board while watching the fuel map ( best to have a co-pilot for this if driving through the pits) and it will correct the fuel map for you. Before you shut it off save the file with a new name, click on "disconnect" also before shutting the engine off. Otherwise it won't keep the new map.
What are your RPM break points in your maps? I use 500 RPM. I can send you sheets I use when logging, easy to alter it to suit you. My email is ed-wright (at)sbcglobal.net
I sell and tune those, and may be able to help get you started.

Check your spark advance, lower/left corner of your spark map. Ten degrees starts most engines pretty well. Mine likes 20, smaller cams or more compression often don't. Kicking back against the started is often too much timing while cranking. AlphaN cranks in the lower left Cel. Speed density in the upper left.

Re: Single channel O2
 

>> If you want to email me I can send you instruction for wiring it up.

E-mail sent!

>> Open collectors will give you bogus lean numbers at idle and very low speeds. (...) If you have a muffler that you can slip on the collector, or add an 18" or so extension, you will get accurate air/fuel data.

I might be able to steal the Borlas off the Dust Devil (my bracket car), or the old collectors with the Dynatech cone collector inserts may slip over the existing collector...

>> What are your RPM break points in your maps? I use 500 RPM.

300 in some spots, 600 in others. Trying to distribute things to where (I think) I need the most control over things, like around staging/launch rpm. Haven't done it yet, but I'm thinking it would make sense to narrow up the steps in the bottom 5-6 rows to better handle staging. Even in the burnout, I don't see more than 50% TPS. Wouldn't figure you'd need a lot of fine tuning control from 50-80%. Now, does it interpolate between the blocks, or is it a rigid cross reference chart?

I've been printing out my fuel maps so I have easy reference to past setups & trials. You'd think they'd have a print function. :rolleyes: I've been doing a screen capture, dump it into MS Paint, and printing from there.

>> AlphaN cranks in the lower left Cel.

That makes sense. Wish it would say that implicitly somewhere in the manual. Yah, I had it at 25. I'll knock some out. Thanks!

Used to spend a lot of time back in the day playing with tuneups on cars in Burnout: Player's Choice Edition and the IHRA Drag Racing game. I enjoy this stuff. It just went a little quicker and easier when it was all on the computer! ;)

Re: Single channel O2
 

Hope I was able to help.

Re: Single channel O2
 

Awesome, Ed, thanks! I just happened to have an unused toggle on my Painless panel that was already wired up for emergencies, just not connected to anything. Still had to tear the dash apart to figure out which wire and where it went since it's been years since we did it, but found it, and got everything set up properly and tested. Even flashed the ECU upgrade while I was at it.

Yep, already had a Dash #1 set up with just the necessary data points.

I'd made a bunch of changes to the fuel and spark maps this morning, and put it back in open loop. Starts better, sounds better at low rpms, and I leaned out the burnout areas of the map, which I'd had overly rich earlier. I'm very excited to have the internal data logger set up so that I don't have to get in trouble for being a dork and having the laptop bungied in the seat. ;-) Looking forward to doing some tuning. CalTracs are supposed to be here tomorrow, and should have them on the car for Richmond next week, then we can really get after it! :-)

Re: Single channel O2
 

Hay Mike, You hooked up with one of the best out here. Ed really knows his stuff. Looking forward to you getting after it !

Re: Single channel O2
 

Question: Would your "proper" target A/F ratio possibly be different in ohrrendously different conditions? 4600' and a vapor pressure over .90 this weekend, and it seemed like it went lean when I tried to take enough fuel out of it to get the A/F close to where I had the car running decent at MIR.

Also, when I do get around to doing the "pit driving" tuning with some mufflers on the car, what kind of A/F do you look for in comparison to your WOT A/F? Still much leaner? Seems like the example programs have it up in the 15's at low rpms?

Re: Single channel O2
 

Driving on the return road and pits should be 140.0-1 to 14.5-1 to keep the plugs clean. Leaner usually makes them run warmer. Mike is happy at 14.0-1. Decelleration, 15-1 is usually OK. You can see all kinds of crap on tuning message boards.
You just have to test in different air to find what air/fuel yous likes. Mine likes about the same all the time. I can't say what a Dodge with that manifold would like. Renting the track in different weather is helpful.
Good luck, Ed

Re: Single channel O2
 

I take a boatload of fuel out of it yesterday at low rpm through launch rpm, and a little in the burnout area of the fuel map. Went a smidge too far right at launch rpm on the first run, but just a little tweak got it to leave cleanly again.

Going back over notes, I'm having to run this thing richer now than I did last month, just to get it to go down the track. If I take any fuel away from it, it quits making power (never pops like being too lean with a carb -- it just noses over.) A/F around 11-11.5 during most of the run, a couple spots in 2nd or 3rd gear where it gets into the low 12's, but now I've noticed a couple of rich spikes (10+, not prolonged, just at a singular point on the data log, one in 2nd gear, one in high gear... only did it the last couple runs)

Something I've noticed from day 1 is that the rpm doesn't come up smoothly, and it seems more pronounced now as time goes by. It'll have just an instant of a drop of as much as 300 rpm here and there... fluttering off and on. Shows up more in the data log than what you can feel in the car. This weekend, at least with the borrowed 4-hole spacer, even at idle it was moving around.... 1000rpm for a second or two, drop to 600 for a second or two, then back up, back down, etc.

Theory: bad injector? One or more injectors not working properly, causing the intermittent rpm surge, which has me richening up the whole system too much trying to compensate for poor or surging flow on just 1-2 cylinders, then being down on power when I try to lean it out?

We're going to try to do some kind of injector test tomorrow.

Re: Single channel O2
 

Michael, find a local shop with a bench top injector cleaning and flow testing set up. Number your injectors when you pull them. Scribe the cylinder numbers on the injectors because the cleaning fluid often removes numbers written with a Sharpie. Have them flow test them before and after cleaning, recording each injector's flow rate. Most shops just want to clean them first, they will charge you extra to flow them both ways, but that's the only way you will know. It shouldn't want to run best with air/fuel in the elevens. Mine likes mid twelves. Some like low 13s.
Good luck

Re: Single channel O2
 

Micahel,
In this hot humid weather when you see a little area of the curve being rich. don't try to lean that area out. leave it rich and hit that part of the map with a little timing. See if the engine combo likes that. Some do some don't. It might make a little steam out of the humid air. :~) Oh! Watch the egt's in that rpm range. They should go down a few degrees when you hit it with timing. That is because the heat stays in the chamber, not in the ex pipe.

Re: Single channel O2
 

Been running 38deg, except for down low, had it at 32deg (3000-5400rpm)to get it to hook previously. With the CalTracs (plus being down on power), had absolutely zero hook issues this weekend, and bumped the timing up to 38deg across the board.... only worth .01-.02. Even started putting clicks in the shocks, and the car shrugged its shoulders.

But even in much better air, similar deal... try to lean it out at all, and it noses over by 12.5:1 at best.

Re: Single channel O2
 

The fuel and timing go hand in hand. Watch the EGT's when working the fuel and timing. Usually, as you lean the engine it will want less timing to make power. When you have it fat it usually takes more timing to light the mixture because there is less air (O2) around the fuel. Same goes for more vapor pressure. It displaces the o2. As an example I'll try to post a PM I got from a racer I was helping tune in bad air. oops, Sorry already deleted the exchange.

Re: Single channel O2
 

http://www.altronicsinc.com/media/pr...es/o2alert.jpg

O2Alert features single or dual widbands plus RPM and Battery voltage standard. Has Auxially inputs for EGT, Drive shaft RPM, and Pressure/Temperature/ voltage.

Data can be read back on screen or comes with software to download to a computer and graph/overlay.

http://www.altronicsinc.com/media/pr...lert_graph.jpg
THis system also features automatic recording capability, so that there is NO user interaction required to start recording. You can sit in the lanes for hours and then make your run and do not need to remember to push a button!

Also features AFR average which is very useful in determining what tune up change has effected performance. In carbed applications fuel slosh can cause fluctuations in AFR. I like to be able to look and the entire run and see not only what the AFR is a specific points but more important what the average AFR is.

Also, This is a CONTINGENCY item!

See our website for more info www.altronicsinc.com/pages/o2alert.html

Re: Single channel O2
 

First thing we did today was physically check the timing at the balancer, and lo and behold, it was reading around 30 degrees, not 38! It's more than a little disconcerting to me that it could've moved that much in the first place, but it sure does explain the car running like a pig lately. It's a FAST Dual-Sync distributor. We went through the setup procedure again, checked it against the timing light, and tweaked to match. We marked it before going through setup again, and you can see the distributor is definitely in a different position than it was.

Just goes to show you can't overlook the basics, even if it "shouldn't" have happened. Hindsight, Sherlock Holmes, Occum's Razor, etc, etc.... I'm sure I'll have to punch the fuel map around a bit again now, but feels good to have actually found and corrected something that is a definite problem.

Re: Single channel O2
 

Now you know the lean/rich for 30 deg of timing! ;~)

Re: Single channel O2
 

Same thing just happened to me. The car was slowing down for no reason.

First it slowed up .05 for no reason. Ran the valves, looked over springs, drained oil and cut open filter. Nothing.

Next race slowed .10 1st round for no reason. Put it in the box to look it over at home. Plugs were rich but O2 didn't show it, then O2 would go to 15.98 just running it at idle and off idle up to 2k. Shut down ignition and restart would be fine for a while.

Next race go day early to test. First and second runs O2 wacky. Install new O2 sensor and start to get good info, pick the car up .2 but it's still .1 slow. First qualifier picks up .02, second slows .05, third another .05 I'm lost. My buddy comes over and tells me to go back to basics and check timing. Do it just to please him. It was 16* advanced. Match up what timing should be as shown on the laptop to actual.

What do I dial first round? What map do I run? How long has the O2 and timing been messed up?

Go back to test session where the car ran deadly consistent and load fastest map. Use that run vs. weather, and fastest run of the weekend vs. weather to come up with a dial. It's a .14 window. Throw a dial on the window in the middle. Kill a few and run over but flat out would have been dead on the dial. Lucky guess. The car should be a little faster but it's a little fat for what it likes.

Next time out will verify timing and tune it up, should run normal numbers.

This year has been a learning experience. Earlier in the season the car would speed up or slow down .05. Found that to be a rear suspension issue. Fixed that then the O2 and timing gremlins show up.

They say they come in 3s, so things should begin to get back to normal. Maybe! :o

Re: Single channel O2
 

That's what I like about Adg.... always thinkin' positive! LOL

Heard a funky one at Bristol a few weeks ago. Guy running FAST XFI on alcohol said he went up to the lanes for 2nd rnd, and the car was running horrible. Dials up a second, not knowing what to do... Turns out he had the ignition on while charging the battery, and somehow it reset to a default (gas!) program. Better yet, when he went WOT, it reverted to his alky setup, and it's flying.... he pedals it, and as soon as he gets out of it, it goes back to the gas default and dies. Crazy!

So the big question is, why have we experienced a massive change in timing?!

Re: Single channel O2
 

It can't switch between tune ups like that. He has something else going on.

Your timing changed because something on the engine moved. Either that or the offset number in your calibration was changed. Charging the battery with the switch left on won't hurt the ECU.

Re: Single channel O2
 

Michael, if you think you have injector issues, which will effect the a/f ratio you see at the collector and can't get them flow tested locally you can always pull the headers to check for white & black exhaust ports.

Re: Single channel O2
 

Might want to mark that distributor and intake just to make sure it doesn't move on you.....I am pretty sure it shouldn't make a difference, as I think my fast system controls the timing, but we do have distributors.....distributor gear?.....just a couple of thoughts.....make sure you keep your batteries fully charged between rounds...as it needs the juice....good luck with the DP motor.

Eric

Re: Single channel O2
 

Michael
Are you recording anything of the run into a data logger so you can replay just to look at. Sure its a dumb question, but just curious
reed

Re: Single channel O2
 

Michael, aren't you using a crank trigger?

Re: Single channel O2
 

No, using the FAST Dual-Sync Distributor.