Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

Subject: Stocker cams

Question: I think I have ask this on the site before, but do not remember getting an answer. So, what brand of cam do most of the top Stockers use ?

Bullet is the brand I see mentioned most. They have quite a few lobes listed, and can do custom grinds also. :)

http://www.bulletcams.com/Masters/Hlobes.htm

I assume that most cam grinders don't fool with Stocker stuff because there are so few Stockers around.

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

Comp Cams will grind whatever you want.

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

oldskool,

I have used CC in both my 350 & 400 ci 77-Pontiac firebird ..They have a wide selection of grinds to choose from & very good service...I use Crower dual- valve springs & CC hyd lifters , also use Rhoads lifters at times ... Yes, I run 160 # plus spring pressure & CC mag. pushrods, in a 3850 # bird.You don't need all the good stuff to run 2-3 under the index , you will need a good trans & Convertor , plenty of TNT... A good sealing short-block ,heads & a good Q-jet ? Good Luck, $$$$ - jump in the waters is " Fine "...

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

As I mentioned at the beginning of this thread, it's main purpose is to gather good Stocker info, not only for myself, but also to help others like me, who have less experience with Stocker stuff.

The only way I know to get this info is to ask those who have Stocker experience, and to find good online info. So I'll just keep firing the questions as I think of 'em. :)

Subject: Pistons

Question: (1) I see that for some engines there are several NHRA approved forged pistons. So, even if the stock pistons had press pins, are these approved pistons allowed to have floating pins ?

(2) Are all these pistons required to have the same number, size and depth valve reliefs ?

(3) I see that NHRA sets the min weight for the piston. But the min weight for most Pontiac pins is listed as 90 g. That seems like an awfully light pin, doesn't it ?

(4) Also, several of the rods approved for Pontiacs have .990 BBC pin holes. So does that mean that you can order these approved pistons with either size pins ?

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...px?ENGINE=2048

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

1 Yes, you can float the pins

2 Yes NHRA approved number

3 Don't argue about it, and don't use a lighter pin than you have to.

4. You can use a .980 pin or LARGER if rod is approved.

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

Now that's what I wanted to hear ! Reasonable spring pressure, and Rhoads lifters. That means I can run a reasonable cam with Rhoads lifters, in my 455, and get by with a little less spring pressure than you need with your 350 & 400, because I'll be turning less rpm with the long stroke motor--6000 rpm or maybe even a bit lower. Does this sound reasonable ?

Also, with the 455 and Rhoads lifters, I can get by with less stall, and use the 500 + ft lbs of low end torque. Correct ? :confused:

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

OK, so the optimum set-up would be to use a rod / piston / pin / ring combo which would just barely meet the NHRA min weight--is that correct ?

So, for this 350hp 400, that total weight would be 1458 g.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...px?ENGINE=2048

But I noticed some more specs on this page I need to ask about.

(1) The comp dist is listed as 1.695. But one of the approved pistons has a comp dist of 1.714. So, does that mean that you can use any comp distance you choose, which will optimize your combo with one of the approved length rods, and the max allowed stroke ?

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sl...w/make/pontiac

(2) Wouldn't there be an advantage to running one of the BBC rods, because of the smaller big end and larger selection of cheaper pins ? The rod journals and bearings will be smaller, and lighter, with less bearing surface. All this will make the rotating assembly lighter, and should rev a bit quicker. Nothing major. But every little bit helps.

(3) That was for the optimum set-up. But it is also the most expensive. So, that brings up my final piston / rod question. Since the SP(TRW) pistons are MUCH cheaper than the other approved forged pistons, is it possible for a low buck guy to use the cheaper pistons and 6.625 Pontiac rods, and build a shortblock that can run slightly under ? Or to ask it another way, aprox how much quicker would the high dollar shortblock run than the low budget one I described ? :confused:

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

1) Compression distance is minimum, not required.
2) Yes.
3) a) Yes. b) Reciprocating assembly optimization might be worth .12, including reduction of bearing size and weight.

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

With a "tow truck" motor? Maybe not as much quicker as you think.

Now can I make a suggestion? Seeing as you apparently have a ton of old parts and no body, either find a body that fits your parts or find a complete car. Especially if you are going to try a combo that no-one else has played with.
Put a basic short block together that won't self destruct and go to the track. A basic trans and converter and maybe not the perfect gear like you would in a Bracket car and see what it does. If it doesn't show you SOMETHING, maybe it's really not a good combo. Maybe you won't like driving a 4000-5000 LB car. If it doesn't work, get rid of the car or combo and, not a lot invested. And you can still be having fun and learning.

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

OK, thanks for the advice Mr. Billy. That gives me some ideas and also brings up some questions.

I've already got a 455 with 6x heads in a '68 Bird bracket car. Motor running but car not completed. It has a TH400 with 34 element sprag. No tricks--just basic bracket trans. Has a 9" converter--unknown stall.

My engine guy said the car might get into the high 10's. He's built quite a few Pontiac engines and has a 9 sec GTO now. But I think high 10's are a little optimistic. So, I'm figuring mid 11's.

Haven't weighed the car, but I figure just over 3000lb. So, right now I'm doing all calculations based on this 3000 lb car running 11.50.

(1) I've read that every 100lbs of extra weight will slow you down aprox a tenth. Is this what you have found to be the case ? Or ?

(2) Now, for the part about the 4000lb car. All the bracket cars I drove ran mid 12's. When I made a few passes in my 455 Ventura 2, it was a lot quicker. More G-forces :D and the shift points came quicker than I was expecting. 7.34 sec(1/8 mile) don't give an old dude much time to shift twice and check the other lane. So, a heavy car that would slow things down a bit would probably be a good idea at this point.

Now, I have a Safari wagon I bought for a future bracket car. Haven't started on it yet. It's not old enuff to run a Pontiac engine in Stock--mid 80's. But, since I already have it, and as you say, I may not like driving the heavy car, I just thought that it might be a good idea to go ahead and put the 455 into the wagon and just see what I can get out of it. If I can't get it to go quick enuff at the aprox weight it would need to be for a '76 wagon, then at least I'd have a Pontiac powered bracket battle wagon. It would be using the stuff I already have, to do the testing with.

So what do you think about that idea ?

(3) Another option I considered is running the 10.90 class with the Bird. I think they run that class at all the division races. If it runs as quick as my engine guy thinks it might, that is a possibility, which might take the least amount of time, work and $. But, it's a heads up class, and you must be able to run 10.90 on race day. I think there are also some safety rules that will be required when going quicker than 11.50.

Any thoughts about that deal ?

That's all my questions for right now. But I thought I'd mention that I was reading about the 10.90 class last night. They were talking about the latest electronic, computerized gizmos they have now that will automatically make the necessary tuning adjustments going down the track, that will produce almost exactly the same ET every pass. They mentioned one guy that dialed the exact same ET all season long, in his bracket car. It seems that if you don't have one of these systems, it is getting harder to win a big money race. They're afraid this could damage the sport and reduce the car count, and even cause some of the smaller tracks to close. But they say there is really no way to solve this problem given the level of tech for bracket cars, at most tracks.

Drag racing has come a long way from how it use to be. Now they got tranny brakes, delay boxes, and God only knows what else. This new technology has taken a lot of the fun out of it, and has made it even more expensive to compete. A little Test & Tune is about all most can afford nowadays. :(

By the way, the name of my wagon is "Woody". And the name of my '68 is "Early Bird". And here's a couple of more racin plates TJ did. :D

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

#1 100 LBS is worth about a tenth down to about J-K-L. Lower than that, 100LBS is more than a tenth. Higher is less. Results may vary based on combo.

#2 Doesn't even deserve an answer. Too much speculating and assuming, and you know what assuming does, don't you?

#3 If you're going to go 10.90 racing or Bracket racing, that's fine. I won my first Division Championship 10.90 Racing and I've done very well for myself Bracket racing over he years BUT it's NOT Stock or SS racing. That takes a certain amount of dedication and commitment that a great deal of racers aren't willing to make.

#4? Most of us on here know all about what it takes to go 10.90 racing. If we cared to do that, then we would. This is a Stock and SS board.

Again, I will suggest, get a car that fits your parts or get a car. It is seeming to me that the cheapest, easiest way for you to wind up in something like a Stocker would be for you to put a 350 2V combo in your Ventura and sell your 455 stuff to finance it. My .02.

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

Hadn't considered a 2 barrel. I've always run a Q-jet, except on a Hobby class dirt tracker. My Vent is a hatch so it will fall in between P and Q. You think a low comp 2-barrel 350 will run 13.70's ? That's hard for me to wrap my mind around. I had a high comp 350 Q-jet that only ran those times, in a lighter '68 Bird.

But I realize that with a high stall, max gear, light tranny with a 2.75 low, right cam, etc, etc, it will go a lot quicker. I reckin my main concern would be the 2-barrel. I can see how they might supply a 301. But I'm not sure they would supply a 13 sec 350. But I'm sure you've had a lot of experience with 'em. So what is the quickest time you've seen turned with a low comp 350P 2-barrel ?

I suppose what I need to do is learn all I can about a 2-barrel for racing. So, is this something that most anybody can do ? Or is it best to just come up with the $ and buy one from somebody who knows all the tricks. I reckin a better way to ask the question is, can I just do some simple jet and other minor changes, along with a good rebuild and tune, or will it require detailed internal mods done by a 2-barrel racing expert ?

Anyhow it's another option. And since this is a fact finding thread, I'll try to dig into it a little deeper. So, any of you guys reading this who have had success racing a GM 2-barrel similar to the one I'd have to use on a '74 Vent 350P engine, please post all the info you can share about it. I need info like what cubes did you run, what was the weight of your car, how many rpm did you turn, cam specs, stall speed, rear gear, ET, and anything else that might relate, in particular to running a 2-barrel as compared to running a Q-jet.

I'll ask a simple question which probably has a complicated answer. On very similar engines, with each combo maxed out, about how much quicker will the Q-jet car be, than a 2-barrel car? Hey, I know it's a dummy question. But if I knew the answer, I would not ask the question. :confused:

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

So, if I tried to convert my Vent to a Stocker, I'd have a lot of changes to make. As you can see below, it has nice bars, but the dash has been replaced with sheet metal. And it has ladder bars, which would need replacing with Cal-Tracs or at the very least, homemade slappers.

Also would need a stock hood, front bumper, and I'm sure, lots of other stuff to make it pass tech. So, I might come out better trying to find a decent stock body, and start from scratch. That's the reasons I haven't considered it as a potential Stocker.

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

I do like the idea of racing with leaf springs. They are just so much simpler to deal with. So that leaves a choice between a Bird or a Vent. I really prefer a Bird. But I like Vents OK too. And I figure a decent Vent body will be a bit cheaper than a decent Bird body.

So, if I don't use my '74, for the reasons mentioned, lets explore the other possibilities. The 350P was not used in a '71 Vent. It was used in '72, but is factored at 250hp. So that's no good. But in '73, it was used and is factored at 210hp. Also, the '73 model is the last year that NHRA allows 350P pistons, with valve reliefs, according to the info on the link below. The '74-'77 350 pistons are absolutely flat--no reliefs.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...px?ENGINE=2071

The old TRW forged piston # L2339F is legal for the '68-'73 350P. They quit making these a long while back. But you can occasionally run across an NOS set. I have 2 sets. One in the box and one in the 350P shortblock that came out of the 350HO Tempest I mentioned. The oil was milky in it, and I had no use for it at the time. So we never even tried to find out how the water was getting into the oil. It and the other 350 pistons are still over at my engine guy's place. There is also one high dollar piston that was approved over a year ago but is not on the list at the above link. It's a CP brand # P5-CP. This site shows that both it and the TRW 2339 are legal thru '74. So there is conflicting info there, between the 2 sites. But since the site linked below is an official NHRA site, I'll go by it. So, according to it, the '74 models can use any of the approved pistons for all years of the 350P, from '68 thru '77. This info can be found on the bottom of page 60 and the top of page 61 at the link below.

http://www.nhra.com/userfiles/file/N...edProducts.pdf

The 350HO shortblock I mentioned just has stock, cast rods in it. But in a 350, they should be good to at least 6200-6500rpm. I don't figure a 2-barrel 350 will pull any higher than that. I don't have any #46 heads to put on it. But I do have a good set of 6x heads I could use on it for testing purposes. I could find out if I can get a 2-barrel 350 to run under, without buying a set of cores and paying for the head work.

My engine guy has a 350 block with 8 sleeves in it, that he was going to use for a serious dirt track project. But all the tracks in our area shut down. So, I could use my NOS TRW pistons and his 350 block, and build up a strong 350 shortblock. Hey, I'm just sorta thinkin out loud. I reckin that's the way a lot of low buck guys do it--think of all the parts you have available and figure what you can put together.

I've got a 2-barrel on a '71 455, that came out of a Safari wagon. I wonder if that would pass tech on a '73-'74 350 Vent ? By the way, this same engine is legal in a '73-'74 Bird and lots of other models.

Any more comments on the possibility of running under with a '73-'74 350 2-barrel engine ?

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

On E-Bay right now there is a 75 Bonneville 4Door with 10K orig. miles on it. It's a 400 4V and it's in Oklahoma. $3995 buy it now price.
It's big and it's ugly but it's complete, running and doesn't need any paint or body work.
It ain't gonna get much cheaper than that in this day and age.

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

Thanks for the info Mr. Billy !

But if I'm gonna buy a big heavy 4-door, it'll have to be a wagon. And since I already have plenty of motor parts and trannies, all I need is the correct year body. I think I can find just a usable body in my area for $1000 or less. I reckin I live in an area with a very depressed economy. If you can get to a car before some wineo or scrap dealer takes it to the crusher, you can find some real bargins. :)

I was cruisin thru the 455 hp factors again lookin for the best possible combo. What I found that looks better to me than any other combo is a '73 Formula with a 250hp 455. It's factored at 306hp, if this info is correct.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...px?ENGINE=2079

Since they all look very similar from '70-'73, any of those years will work, as a '73. Some of the '70 Formulas and TA's had a 12 bolt rear end. Then all the '71-73's should have the 8.5" ten bolt.

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

Nah..Don't like the 2bbl..You'll cut too many corners and it won't run the index.
Besides, the car is too far gone..Needs too much..
I was going to suggest a 74 GTO SS combo @250 hp..Build it like a Stocker, but with a flat tappet cam and an Edelbrock intake.
It ought to run under the SS/MA, 11.85 index

You realize you get 3 more tenths index with IHRA..Might be the deal for you.

But here's what you need to do with what you got.
Take that big 80's wagon and put it together as a 77, 400/260 for P/SA.
Put an .88 gear in it and a low gear T350.
If it runs good, then change the front panel and the tail lights to 77
Use your 6x -4 heads. We can steer you in the right direction with them.
Find an 8 " converter in the pile,..and I can get it handled for you

Hey , good, free advice is sometimes hard to come by.
I realize I'm bumping up against the commercial side here, so better save this post LOL ;-)

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

Yeah, I like the looks of both those combos. But on the GTO SS deal, I'm figuring that because of all the noise Bill Rink has made with it, that it will soon get hit with a big refactor. :(

Now, about the wagon. You think it is close enuff to a '77 to convert and pass tech with it ? :)

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

Yes..I think you would need to change the whole nose...or as some would say "doghouse".
The tail lights, and the rear bumper..
The VIN is irrelevant.

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

OK guys, I need some help here with some info that may help me and others. I just got involved in a tranny discussion. The OP wanted to know which tranny to run behind his 700hp Pontiac, a TH400 or a Glide. He was afraid the Glide would slow him down. I suggested a TH350, and posted 3 links with TH350's rated at 800hp +.

But one guy basically said the TH350 is junk and won't stand 700hp. I even posted the link of a guy telling about his Turbo Action TH350 that had held up for 3 seasons with 1000hp. But there are a lot of unbelievers.

I assume that lots of you SS guys are running TH350's with somewhere in the neighborhood of 700hp. So I need posts that I can copy and paste, with some of ya'll telling about your sucess with a SS TH350 tranny.

So, can anybody give me some directions on how to find such info on this site ? Thanks ! :)

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

Breaker !

I interrupt this thread to call attention to a nice lookin '72 Grand Prix. Has a 400 Pontiac with some good parts in it, TH400 with brake, and a 12 bolt rear end. Car has a lot of other good parts on it. Has run 11.70's. Check it out. :cool:

http://www.racingjunk.com/Complete-R...ACE-READY.html

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

Looks like a good candidate to convert to a stocker from the pictures. Sell what you can't use off of it and install your stuff. Why haven't you bought it yet, lol?

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

I just checked out the differences real close. Would need an entire front cap. Hood, fenders, and nose--all different. It appears the '77 Grand Safari shares the front cap with the Bonneville and maybe the Parisienne.

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

Nope, the '72 400 has a 310hp factor. The 455 is only 315. It would be better. But those 455 heads had press-in studs and no end exhaust manifold bolt holes. And I don't have a set anyhow.

A '75 GP with a 455, factored at 300hp looks pretty good. And they show the 5c heads are legal on it. These heads are almost identical to the 6x heads that I have. And they have screw-in studs and all 6 exhaust bolt holes. :)

But, I just noticed that NHRA does not list any accepted replacement piston for the '75-'76 455's. They must be oddballs of some kind--maybe a bevel around the edge, or no valve reliefs. Anyhow, a barely under car at a divisional will most likely not be torn down to check the pistons. And I assume that if somebody requested it, NHRA would probably allow the same pistons they have listed for '70-'74 455's, since there would be no big performance advantage.

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

I meant buy it and sell any of the running gear you can't use. You could easily recoup $1000 or more in parts sales, and have a chassis basically ready to drop your stuff in. If you don't have the required heads, I'm sure someone else does. You are letting the minute details get in the way of racing, lol. Not too mention the '72 is way more cool than a '75. As mentioned earlier, years ago I had a 71 Monte Carlo SS 454, which obviously this is the Pontiac equivalent body style. Would hook in mud.

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

That head doesn't have two ears snapped off?? There are no outer manifold bolts??
Wtf were they thinking? Unless the flange on the header is 1/2" thick or something, how would that not leak?

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

Yeah, I understand what you're saying. And I like the GP body style. But I don't have several thousand layin around. I gotta use what I have. So, if I use a GP body, it'll have to be a cheap junker that I can strip down and start from scratch.

And although I like the GP body, it is not my favorite Pontiac. I have 2 bracket cars, so I'm not in any hurry. I'm gonna keep doing the research and figure out what I think would be a good combination to build, considering the parts I have, cost of buying a body, etc, etc.

Here's my order of preference in bodies: :)

(1) TJ :D

(2) Bird

(3) '69-'72 A-body

(4) Ventura 2

(5) Wagon

(6) '69-'77 GP

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

Here's a couple of ways they do it. :)

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

Make it a 71... 66 cast heads.
@325 , not a bad combo
Run it slow for 6 mos. and get some hp off.. Shouldn't be a problem for you.

Right ..Sell the drivetrain, and you'd have a few grand in it, and you'd have a nice looking car to race. ;-)

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

This got me to thinkin more about a Pontiac SS combo. The best one that comes to mind for my situation seems to be to use the '68 Bird, in a GT class.
What I like about the GT class is that it makes any Pontiac engine legal, from the 301 to the 455.

A '77 350 4-barrel has a 250hp factor in GT/auto

A '78 W72 220hp 400 has a factor of 289 in GT/auto.

A '75 455 has a factor of 300hp in GT/auto

I haven't checked out all the engine possibilities. But one I did check out one that looked real good. It's a '68 428.

The '68 iron head 428 has a 320hp GT/auto factor.

And NHRA has approved an Edlebrock alum head # 60587 for the '68 428.

The alum head 428 has a 330hp GT/auto factor.

You are allowed to shave these heads down to 65cc. That will provide a CR in the 13's. So, at 320-330hp, with 13:1 CR and a 4" stroke, I consider this one of the best lookin GT/auto engines. And, of course, you can now use an aftermarket block and build a shortblock that will support some serious power. I suspect some of the quickest Pontiac GT guys are running this engine.

Hey, it's out'a my range. For you guys with a few bucks to burn on a SS car, this looks like a real good GT engine.

I love the 455. I won't include the round port HO and SD engines, cause the heads are too rare and expensive. But the 455 I see as possibly the best choice for GT is the '70 with #64 heads. It'll have a high CR and a 335hp GT/auto factor.

That would put you in GT/EA at 3350 lbs, with a 10.65 index. Now at this point in life, I really don't wanna go that fast. But for you guys that do, this looks like an easy way to go SS racing without selling your soul. This engine should go 10.50's with a good hyd flat tappet cam, without going passed 6000rpm. If not, a mild roller will will get you there E-Z.

Another advantage of running this combo is that if you are trying to do it on a real tight budget, and don't quite get it under the index, you can run the 10.90 heads-up class, til you can get your ET down where you want it. Also, for you guys who live in a area like I do, that has very few class races, this will make a real good, low maintenance bracket car.

Now I realize that there are lots of guys on this site who don't like either the .90 classes or bracket racing. But, to me, any kind of racing is better than settin at home and not racing at all. I speak from experience. :(

Notice: I have absolutely no problem with anybody who likes only class racing. If I was younger and had unlimited funds, I'd probably go to just the big races, with my new motor home, enclosed trailer and a couple of Pontiacs that would run a sec under. :) :)

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

OK, we've talked about Birds, Vents, Wagons and GP's. But we haven't looked much at the '69-72 A-body cars. I'm kinda partial to these cars, because my 1st, and what has turned out to be my only new car, was a '69 GTO.

So let's look 1st at the possible Stocker combos with a '69 GTO. Again, I won't mention the RA4 because the heads are too rare and expensive. That leaves the std 350hp and the RA3 engine.

The 350hp engine now has a 325hp factor. This is basically the same engine as the 330hp that is factored at 338 in the '68 Bird and 345 in the '69 Bird. I reckin that means that nobody has been makin any noise in a '69 GTO lately. That's probably because a clean '69 GTO body is worth so much. :(

The 366hp RA3 is still factored at the factory rating. Therefore it is a real bad choice for a Stocker. The cam is about the only difference, and since the cams have only lift limitations today, it is not even a factor. So the RA3 could not compete. The 350hp engine, does look like it could be competitive, if you got the coins to come up with a good '69 GTO body.

The 350HO has a 325hp factor, but that's the same as the 350hp GTO engine, so why give up 50 cubes ?

So, for this post, I'll conclude by saying that if you can afford a '69 GTO body, it looks fairly good for the 350hp engine as long as the factor stays at 325. :)

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

Run that deal as a 72. the 315 hp 455 is a good deal. I ran 10.80's in G with that combo in 09. The heads are a dime a dozen, very easy to find. I know somebody who has a set of .060 Ross pistons, and an older set of prepped stocker heads that you could most likely make a deal for to get you started. You could race that deal with stock lifters, and normal spring pressure as well. Also no EGR valve in the intake.

The best way to attach the headers to the ends of the port is to drill and tap them. Then use a simple stud.

screw in studs is a simple process that anybody can do, don't let that scare you away.

Turning that car into a 77 is alot of time an effort, plus some money. Im not sure that 5c deal is the way to go either. No compression at all. the 72 455 will pour to 9.2 compression. that other deal will be lucky if it makes 8.0

the 71 455 has a very small intake runner. 144cc and at 325 is a dead player

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

The 350 is also rated at 305 in the GTO.

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

OK, Thanks Todd ! That's what I need--info from somebody with 1st hand experience with a particular engine. :)

Now, all the clean GTO bodies I've seen in the last few years are overpriced and out of my price range. So, I looked down the list of cars that can run this engine. I like the Lemans wagons at 13.0 weight break. One reason is because I noticed the ET for 13.0 is 2 tenths slower than for 12.50 break. So, even with a heavy car, a 12.65 should be doable, without any major financing.

The wagon will have to weigh: 13.0 x 315hp = 4095lb. Now when I think of the '72 Lemans wagon, I automatically think of the "Tons a Fun" and Jim Hand's wagon with the GTO front on 'em. But I figure they are rare and high dollar by now also. So one with just the plain Lemans front would do.

The next car on my list would be the GP. They should be much cheaper than a Goat or a wagon IF you can find one that is decent, that hasn't been crushed. You could run the GP in the 12.50 weight break. It would have to weigh 12.5 x 315 = 3937.5lbs That's 157.5lbs lighter than the Wagon. The rule of thumb is that 100lbs = 1 tenth of a sec ET. So the same engine should run about .15 quicker in the GP. But the index for the GP will be 12.45. That's 2 full tenths quicker than the wagon's index. So, on paper, you'd come out .05 better with the wagon.

Hey, I don't mean to bore ya'll with these figures. But when you are trying to run the index on a VERY low budget, every hundredth counts. :(

Now, I'd really rather drive a 2-door Lemans. So I'm thinkin that a Lemans will be easier to find than a wagon or a GP. And if it's got a decent body, but a ragged out inside and a shot or missing engine, I may be able to find one cheap and start from scratch.

Hey, I know it'd be easier to buy something ready to race or at least a good roller, less engine & trans. And I'd be glad to do that. But remember, this is a LOW budget deal. But I reckin it will really be more rewarding to build something from scratch, than to just be able to plunk down the $$ and go racing. But, hey, I'd like to try that just once to see if it was fun or not. :D

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

I didn't realize the 72 7M5 deal was 10 hp less than a 66 cast head. What's the deal with that? 10 less hp for peanut plugs?

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

Well, I reckin that, once again, I am lookin at some old, outdated info. This classracerinfo site clearly says that the 330hp 350 has a 325hp factor, and comes only in the Tempest and Lemans, not the GTO.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...px?ENGINE=2028

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...px?ENGINE=2028

So, would you please, once again, post me a link to the info you are referring to. And thanks for correcting any mistakes I might make. I am just trying to go by what I read. Maybe I'm reading in the wrong place ? :confused:

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

I got that taken off in 2003. Nobody ran fast with the combo in the modern age at the time. Just played the game. The engine cant run in an F body. The 71 and 73 can be used in an Fbody

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

Adam is working with a 68 Firebird.
305 in Tempest, Lemans ,,I believe you are right...Not in GTO's

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

A Lemans or Grand Prix is the way to go with the 7M5 455. No need to run a GTO. A wagon would be fine, just need a bit of gear for it. Maybe a shorter cam duration wise

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

OK, that's different. The reason I didn't include the '68's, but only the '69-'72, is because I don't like the bumper and taillight arrangement on the '68's. It's just a personal preference thing.

I wonder if the hp difference in the '68 & '69 has anything to do with the size of the valves, in the #48 heads ? Or did somebody just request that the '68 factor be lower ? :confused: