Re: Not for Nuthin' But Close!
I got a package in the mail yesterday!
It looks like I'm gonna spend the day trying to learn how to tune a car with a laptop! |
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Would this work with a 2dr. And a stick?
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Thx Mark. Definitely something to think about.
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Nice car. Wish they had them like this in Ohio. I’ll check into some shipping prices though.
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Next eco tech tip, If you put a oil pressure gauge on these motors you would faint. We broke our first gauge it only went to a 100 psi. This oil pump is crank driven on the front of engine, and the relief valve is easily accessed on that cover by simply pulling out the hex plug and trimming the spring. Remember it has oil pressure chain tensioners so don't get cared away. These motors crush the oil filters from flowing a lot of oil so put name brand on, we have had good luck with GM ones. One thing with a stick do you have to have a sfi flywheel? One more quick tip we run a wire to the bottom side of the cooling fan relay to ground it with a toggle switch to run the fan to cool it down anytime. Tom
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I would definitely use an SFI flywheel. That is one thing I wouldn’t scrimp on.They are available in the aftermarket.
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No SFI flywheel, clutch , or bell housing protection required..Of course, no 2 year belts either ;-) |
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So, I went to Island yesterday. The place was PACKED!!! I used the HP Tuners package to raise the speed limiter and raise the RPM limiter. That worked fine, the car ran the index again at just under 87 MPH which I was quite happy with as the air was about 1000' worse than the last time I was there ( almost 80* in NJ in November! Ya gotta love global warming!).
After using the HP tuners deal, I have definitely come to one conclusion, giving me a laptop and a programmer is like giving a chimp a thermo-nuclear device. If anybody out there has ANY experience with this stuff, I wouldn't say no to some advice. Thanks in advance. |
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They do a very good job of step by step hand holding and basic explanation of the HP Tuners Software and how to use it. If you don't want to spend the $$ then I suggest that you spend some time in your driveway playing with the program. I can answer most questions. I will post up a sample log later. Robin |
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I second "The Tuning School" Bob Morreale does a great job. Get a wideband and go to work on fueling and timing. If you have access to a chassis dyno you will learn quickly. Look for anything that will restrict timing like coolant temp or inlet air temp, those will greatly affect consistency.
https://www.youtube.com/c/TheTuningSchool/videos |
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Just a really quick update, I went to Cecil Co. yesterday. Thanks to Doug Hoven who got the data logger working I have some data. Other than the original 120K mile spark plugs getting changed there's nothing else different. Place was packed and I only got 3 runs. 15.33, 15.40, 15.37 all over 88 MPH and the .33, 88.5 MPH. I can't wait till next week to try changing a couple of things!
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I went to Island yesterday. For those who don't know, Island is a good track that can be fast but it's nowhere near the "ego massage" that Cecil is.
To get started, I would like to (again) thank Doug Hoven for all of the help that he has given me and for being patient enough to try and teach "an old dog new tricks". I got 6 runs in as the track wasn't all that crowded but by afternoon, the weather was threatening. Because of that, I didn't take the time to let the car cool off between runs (roughly 140* vs. 180*) which, so far seems to be worth about a tenth. On the first pass, the car went a 15.73 @ 85.37 in the same state of tune that it was in when it went a 15.73 @ 85.71 a few weeks ago. So far, this thing has been running with about +/- 18* of TOTAL advance in it and an O2 voltage of +/-12.4. The second pass, I (Doug) added 4* of timing and it ran ----- the same thing. More Nannys need to be changed. Third pass, 15.68 @ 85.86 and it's now -------- spinning the tires. Fourth pass, 2* more timing and 15.53 @ 86.14 and this thing is really starting to feel and sound good! Fifth pass, changed all of the timing Nannys to a "locked" 29* total. I can now get almost 3000 RPM out of the converter on the brake and it -------- wheel hopped and spun like crazy. Last pass, I went back to my 2200 RPM launch and went a 15.48 @ 85.97 with some slight wheel spin but with a best ever 2.14 60'. As I've been adding timing, the O2 voltage has been creeping down into the mid 11s which I'm going to guess is some kind of "self preservation" thing. From what little I know of O2 values, I am going to guess that this thing is rich and getting richer as I raise the timing. I don't know how to change the mixture yet but I'm hoping to get out once or twice more but that is looking doubtful at this point. I just can't get over how this car responds to the simplest things. It has a great sound to it now and I can't wait to see and hear how it responds to a header and more tuning! There is no longer ANY doubt in my mind that this combo is a fine way to go Stock Eliminator racing on a tight budget! |
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Since you are using the HP tuners outfit, are you still clearing the engine management system between rounds?
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Billy great following this thread, will throw a prediction out there once you bolt on the header and tinker with the timing again, my guess in good air 15.35 88 mph.
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Billy, did you remove all of the engine and transmission torque management?
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I saw the settings for torque management under traction control, but this car doesn't have traction control, so I didn't play with it. I am not sure where to find it but this car takes all of the timing out during shifts. It may be a part of the transmission torque management settings.
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Guys, You need to get that timing /shift deal out of there.
My S10 has that crap. I tried bracket racing it. It would swing 2 tenths!! every few runs. I tried "fooling" the coolant and air temp. but it didn't help. :-( |
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I would post pictures of the graphs, but I don't have access to the software as it is currently only installed on Billy's laptop.
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Torque management may look something like this... and "torque reduction vs torque vs shift" zero out this table. Also make sure your hi and lo octane timing tables match.
https://i.imgur.com/w0hEQKz.jpg https://i.imgur.com/SDrIggo.jpg |
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I'll have to look into it better, but I did not see a torque reduction table for the shifts as you show here. Last week at Island I dealt with the octane tables having to match, but also had to play with the minimum spark advance table to effectively "lock out" the timing to a total of 29 degrees. This, however is all taken out during the shifts and takes a considerable amount of time to come back in.
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Does the timing go to zero momentarily, when you mat it?
Some of them have that little trick, too. |
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I'll be honest. I'm a V8, RWD guy. But what you guys are doing here is what Stock is all about!
Now, about that tire spin, what can be done to eliminate it? FWD is counter-intuitive. |
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A washed-up, loud-mouthed old man who knows nothing about computers teams up with a fresh-faced, wise-*** kid who drives a 5.0 86 Mustang 5 speed with a Holley and they thrash out a totally STOCK, Stock Eliminator car! Wow, a STOCK car in STOCK Eliminator! What a concept! Sounds like a plot for a hit TV show. |
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As with a street car with drivability issues there could be some of the same problems with your car. Sweep testing sensors with a meter could see glitches with your hundred thousand mileage plus car. We have seen small problems with map, tp sensor and knock sensor on the wheel dyno. I will tell you peek HP and torque are at 5500 and drop off big after 6000 due to the intake manifold. Also if you have not pulled the flex off the exhaust manifold you will see that it has a reversion cone at that connection. For some reason this motors do not like much timing. Tom
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Doug and I went to Cecil Co. yesterday for what will probably (not definitely) be our last T&T for the year. There was a good crowd but it wasn't packed and we made 7 runs. Doug tried a bit more timing and it didn't seem to like it so he concentrated on trying to take fuel out. He did switch it over to open loop to start removing fuel. Now, he was taking fuel out just a little bit at a time but the car kept responding. First 3 passes with the air getting warmer and the baro. going down were;
First pass, 15.262 @ 88.23 2nd pass, 15.250 @ 88.73 3rd pass, 15.221 @ 88 90 Doug had to raise the RPM limiter again as the car started bumping into it on the 1-2 shift (more on THAT later). 4th pass, 15.164 @ 89.10 !!! 5th pass, 15.159 @ 89.31 !!! Now just a little something about the 5th pass, that just happened to be the ONLY pass that Doug has taken in the car. Oh, did I mention that he had a .020 light? Darned punk kids have no respect for their elders...... 6th pass, 15.188 @ 89.11 Last pass, really spun the tires, 15.268 @ 89.11. Doug brought home my laptop to see if he can post some graphs, he said that I didn't need it anyway. Hmmmm. Now about the torque management nannys, Doug DID turn them off BUT we are going to have to find some kind of a happy medium between them being completely off and making adjustments to the line pressure graphs. With the torque management off and the line pressure left alone, the trans starts "sliding" into gear instead of crisply shifting. But that's for next time. |
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Attached is a picture of the main spark table. I only felt the need to modify it from 60 kPa to 100 being that once you go to full throttle the map sensor reads between 98-100. I pretty much copied this table for both high and low octane mode so there is no way the car can change it. The other thing I did was modify the minimum timing table to have a minimum 29 degrees of advance throughout the rpm range. If there are any other tables anyone would like to see, I'll gladly post them on here.
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where do you find the minimum timing table
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