Re: Toyota Supra Class Prediction
 

Thanks!


I guess that was all Drag Paks and Cobra Jets? My thought is that it would be better to look at more years if you want to make a fair argument. I can think of more than a few combinations that are really strong when the AHFS is turned off.


That assumes that the performance increases are all due to "flogging". But, not "enhancements". Why shouldn't a new car be Bad ***** right out of the box?

Re: Toyota Supra Class Prediction
 

Why should a new car immediately be able to negate all of the hard work, development, and investment of combinations people have had for a long time?

Re: Toyota Supra Class Prediction
 

People were asking pretty much the same questions when the "supercars" ruined everything in the sixties....

Re: Toyota Supra Class Prediction
 

"It's happened before" is no excuse for it to happen again. History is to be learned from, not repeated ad infinitum and ad nauseum.

Re: Toyota Supra Class Prediction
 

I wasn't talking about the cars. I was talking about the crying...

Re: Toyota Supra in Stock Eliminator (Poll)
 

Last year at Indy, there were 5 ?Newer FS cars? in the top 16 for Stock. It seems to have leveled out from 10 - 12 years ago.

Re: Toyota Supra in Stock Eliminator (Poll)
 

Do you honestly think that "10-12 years" is a reasonable amount of time for soft make believe paper combinations to "level out? Certainly you must also remember how many years it took some of the modern EFI cars, like the 4th gen Camaros (and Firebirds), with both the LT1 and LS engines to finally move up 5 or 6 classes, and how many older combinations were essentially "Robbed" in Class or heads up races in eliminations.

Re: Toyota Supra Class Prediction
 

Congratulations on having 2(!) threads about your car.

Re: Toyota Supra Class Prediction
 

Reminds me of flathead fords that were 90hp. Bored/stroked/relieved/blown and they get 200hp! Then in 55 the overhead valve sbc was introduced with 200hp in a family car.

Technology is great, but shouldn't replace hard work. So the question becomes, how do you stop newer technology from dumping all over older tech that was messaged to get where it is?
Factor it correctly.

What happened when fwd cars came out? The hp/weight didn't take into account of the natural problem of pulling the car compared to pushing the car so they were factored by themselves (fwd classes)

What happened when turbos became common? Spec's for turbos to prevent "cranking it up and dominating" (buddy ingersol turbo pro stock)

What happened when blowers became common? Pulley dia spec's.

The common denominator is that newer tech is "better" than old tech so adjustments have to be made. Put it in a class that it doesn't immediately dominate or bump it up a class (add hp)

Not against toyota joining the fun, just want it done fairly. It's all a moot point until the first pass is made, then if it's 1/2 sec off the index and has to start like everyone else, fine. If it's -1.00 out of the gate then yes, adjustments need to be made.
You can't factor a 1965 sbc the same as a 5.3ls.

Re: Toyota Supra Class Prediction
 

So, in your world. I can build a 1969 Camaro with a 396/375 that will run 1.20 under and not use one original part in the entire car, that would be OK? But, if I build a new Supra from the ground up using the same rulebook and it runs 1.00, it should be penalized?

Re: Toyota Supra in Stock Eliminator (Poll)
 

Ya know, I don't post much on here anymore. Mostly by choice.
The Factory Cars (and the Toyota, You asked for it, you got it) aren't the things ruining Stock. The costs of building these combos and the insultingly ridiculous purses are.
Daren, if you really love Stock Eliminator as I truly do (even for all of it's faults) would you PLEASE make your next project an inexpensive, entry-level combo which can be built by "mere mortals" without engineering degrees, a machine shop in their garage and an unlimited line-of-credit at their Bank?
As good, fun, simple to build and CHEAP as some of my latest projects are, I just don't seem to be able to convince any young people (or old poops who act young) to get involved.
Maybe it's my charismatic charm ;-).

Re: Toyota Supra in Stock Eliminator (Poll)
 

I hear Ya Billy!

You know that I have a couple of "old car" projects around here on my "when I get to it list"!

I almost got my Firebird back out a few years ago, but ended up lending the drivetrain to Robbie Butler. That stuff ran pretty good in GT/QA. Even held the record for a short while.

The Cutlass P/SA was running pretty good until I brought it home for updates. That has turned into a frame-off project....

Both of those cars should be an example of how deep my passion runs.

I also help a few racers from time to time. But, that's a story for another time!

Re: Toyota Supra in Stock Eliminator (Poll)
 

Billy, I know it's a FFFFord, but someone can buy a 2011 Mustang 3.7 V6 car for cheap and run it in M/SA, would be a good combo, for not an arm and a leg. I think a guy in D1 ran one a couple years ago.




Bret Velde
2003 I/SA
Coming soon

Re: Toyota Supra in Stock Eliminator (Poll)
 

This should be it's own thread. Sorry Daren.

Re: Toyota Supra in Stock Eliminator (Poll)
 

People spend $100K on a boat to catch fish and throw them back and the maintenance is even more. LOL





Bret Velde
2003 I/SA
Coming soon

Re: Toyota Supra Class Prediction
 

How would you build a -1.2 69 camaro? With the parts that have been proven to work by the people that worked on their car until it was a 1.2 under combo.

My point is that ANY new car toyota or not, that is included in the guide and first pass is -1.2 you have to wonder, was it the person or the factoring?

This is even different than finding a combo that is a ringer that nobody else saw/built. Anybody CAN build a low factored car (my mustang.....) but it's obvious the factoring is soft on 302 2bbls. They were in the guide and nobody built them, hp lowered and they get built with the intent of the ahfs will level it back out.

One person builds a toyota and qual #1. More people build the same car and either (1) they too are also -1.00 which means the factoring is soft, or (2) they are just running the index which proves the -1.2 by another person was the builder not the factoring.

A third scenario is, some guys would run -1.2 regardless of what they build because they have unlimited resources....if so, this would be proven by scenario (2)

If you are in the third scenario department, when someone else builds one, it will be obvious as well. Good luck regardless of how it turns out, you have put in the leg work!

Re: Toyota Supra Class Prediction
 

How many years, and how much time and money went into making that Camaro that fast? Six or seven prominent engine builders, over a couple of decades, supported by dozens of racers, who also spent years and money testing headers, gears, torque converters, clutches, transmissions, gear ratios, etc.


Never mind the 396 Camaro, the Toyota isn't in those classes, yet. So what about the guy with years and thousands in his Nova, Camaro, Mustang, Duster, Demon, etc., in the class it does run? They don't have the aftermarket parts you seem to use as an excuse. And few of those guys have $100K disposable laying around.

Re: Toyota Supra in Stock Eliminator (Poll)
 

And new cars aren't going to bring in a bunch of new racers either. They didn't last time, and they won't now.


Stock and Super Stock are for a rare breed of people who thrive on a specific challenge to develop ET and MPH within rules and limitations, rather than with "bigger", "more", nitrous, or supercharging. You're NEVER going to bring in droves of new blood. People are not raised that way anymore. Even within drag racing, when you start talking about making something fast in Stock or Super Stock, or even Comp, 90% of all people's eyes glaze over and they get a confused look on their face.




Unfortunately, neither Stock nor Super Stock has Roger Brogdon, either, and NHRA simply doesn't care.

Re: Toyota Supra Class Prediction
 

I can agree with some of this, but it's important to keep in mind that although this Supra is a new combo, GUMP will be applying all of the stuff class racers already know to it to make it fast. Outside of the chassis and the B58 engine, he's not reinventing the wheel. He already knows what to look for in header design, torque converter specs (that still might take a little bit of figuring), gear ratios, etc. I'm sure this car will unload with the best converter and transmission technology, close to perfect header design for the turbo housing, and all the right stuff in the engine that we already know will make it faster.

As much as I'm sure he'd like to be given credit for how fast it runs out of the gate, it will be a culmination of work he's put into the car and the development with combo-specific stuff along with all the tried and true stuff class racers have figured out over the last half century.

Re: Toyota Supra in Stock Eliminator (Poll)
 

I for one, would like to see a bunch of photos of the car. Even though I have no dog in the fight and certainly never will, I find it all very interesting…

Re: Toyota Supra in Stock Eliminator (Poll)
 

I'm with Wayne, any chances we could get some updated pictures since the HPX? I'm sure you've been hard at work getting the final touches done on the car and I'd love to see what you're working with at this point

Re: Toyota Supra in Stock Eliminator (Poll)
 

Wayne,

Please understand that this car wouldn't even be public right now if I hadn't promised the HPX that I would have it at their show. On that front, I think that I got the show the attention they wanted.

The car is not finished. I am quite particular about my cars, so I would rather show it again once it is completed. After that, I plan to do a whole "how to build" video on the next one.

Let me add that I still have the articles that you did years ago on how to build a Firebird. They totally changed my perspective on how to build a good chassis. So, I owe you THANKS!

Daren

Re: Toyota Supra in Stock Eliminator (Poll)
 

Awesome ....I'll wait with bated breath! Really looking forward to seeing more.

And hey, thanks for the comps on my old Firehawk (I'm actually shocked and very flattered). In Tim Bishop's hands, it did extremely well I think.

Re: Toyota Supra in Stock Eliminator (Poll)
 

U.S. national stock winner, with a stick I believe.

Re: Toyota Supra in Stock Eliminator (Poll)
 

Yes and at the time the Firebird was a B/Stick Record Holder…

Re: Toyota Supra in Stock Eliminator (Poll)
 

So what class-classes will this fit exactly?

Re: Toyota Supra in Stock Eliminator (Poll)
 

Grab a large popcorn and stay tuned...like the rest of us.
LOL

Re: Toyota Supra in Stock Eliminator (Poll)
 

Wild guess maybe a 9.45 factor. Drum roll!

Paul H

Re: Toyota Supra in Stock Eliminator (Poll)
 

Haven't seen Tim for quite a while, anybody know if he's OK, just busy farmin' maybe, I hope. Bill Taylor 1005 B/Stock.

Re: Toyota Supra in Stock Eliminator (Poll)
 

Sadly I believe he had serious health issues, but that?s only through the grapevine?.

Re: Toyota Supra in Stock Eliminator (Poll)
 

I'm amazed at all the bickering back and forth about exact specs of a car that will be bracket racing 99% of the time in Stock Eliminator.

I get that the point is to remain as close to a true stock setup as possible, but evolution of the class isn't necessarily a bad thing if well controlled. The statement "they don't make them like they used to" is very true so why not try to evolve and incorporate old and new ideas to keep the class alive and well.

Re: Toyota Supra in Stock Eliminator (Poll)
 

You used the terminology "if well controlled..." in your response. Is there an example of a "well controlled" runaway HP factor that you know of? I can't think of any.

This car should be in FS. I understand both sides' arguments but think what I think. If it's in the same class as anything I run, so be it, I'll deal accordingly, but I can't think of a single time where a soft factor was corrected quickly.

Re: Toyota Supra in Stock Eliminator (Poll)
 

Jared, I run B/SA as well. I think we'll be OK for a few years, as looking at
the shipping weight and the Factory HP, which they'll discount, it looks
like it might be a D,E,F car. Or if somebody builds one and loses their
mind, it might zip right past "B" all the way to AAA/SA!!

J.R.

Re: Toyota Supra in Stock Eliminator (Poll)
 

Yeah, and Factory Stock should be in Factory Stock Eliminator or at least S/S at the very minimum.

Re: Toyota Supra in Stock Eliminator (Poll)
 

At least the non-VIN cars should be.
From what I'm understanding, the Toyota has a VIN. In that case it really isn't any worse than a late model Corvette as far as the drivetrain mods go.

Re: Toyota Supra in Stock Eliminator (Poll)
 

Seeing a Toyota No.1 in the Stock Eliminator qualifying sheet is one thing, however seeing a Toyota (anything) in the winner's circle is something totally different! I'll tell you this, with all of the crap I've read about Toyota's, Nissan's, Subaru's, and Mitsubishi's being better vehicles than our American branded vehicles, I'm still waiting for one of them to get their FWD compacts to come out and play with my Z24, Dennis's Dodge Shadow, and Billy's Cavalier, Brent and Gary's Charger's, and Mark's Escort! Moreover, "IF" they'd survive an elimination round against any of our cars, there's still a slew of Camaros, Challengers, Mustangs, and many other RWD muscle cars, that they'd have to survive to impress me!

How about it Toyota, where's the FX16, or the Supra's? Honda, where's your CRX's, Accords, Prelude's, and Acura Integra's? Subaru, you too....where's your performance cars? Mitsubishi tried once, come back and try again? While we're at it, let's get the Hyundai's and Kia's into the mix as well? European muscle cars in Stock? How about it Volkswagen, BMW, Porsche, Audi lovers? Let's make it international! I'll put my dollars in American branded cars!!!!

I'm a little late to this dance, because I had some significant family losses these past two months, but I'm back now, and as soon as I can build back up some vacation time, I'm heading back to the track, and definitely looking forward to 2026, now that I have my parents as heavenly angels to watch me!:)

Re: Toyota Supra in Stock Eliminator (Poll)
 

Just saw some interesting news that changes a lot of things on this subject, and I don't claim to have any idea of what, if anything, NHRA will do.

Toyota is bringing out a totally new 6th gen Supra in 2027 or so, and it will no longer be essentially a Z4 BMW with a Toyota body. They will be using their own hybrid inline turbo 4 with 400hp. I'm of the belief that the word "hybrid" being in the description means it has battery assist. It will be rear wheel drive, but without any BMW driveline parts.

I'm assuming that Gump's build will stay in the books but wonder about new additions like it in the future.

Re: Toyota Supra in Stock Eliminator (Poll)
 

Right now, I'm focused on the first one!

Re: Toyota Supra in Stock Eliminator (Poll)
 

Are the NHRA folks going to get the new ride in the books for you before Indy?

Paul H

Re: Toyota Supra in Stock Eliminator (Poll)
 

Unfortunately, no. I've been stupid busy since the HPX Show. I hope to get everything finalized soon.