Re: H-I-J '76 Nova re-fit.
 

I have some theories, but won't know till I get there and start looking further. I'll recheck the pick-up but I'm pretty sure with the 1 piece gasket it was 1/2".

Re: H-I-J '76 Nova re-fit.
 

The little plug I mentioned is down in the block under the rear cap. It presses in there and closes off an oil passage. You'd still have oil pressure even with it missing.

A good shop would knock that plug out to boil the block and sometimes it never got replaced.

A high oil level in a stock depth low capacity pan is not a good idea but with a windage tray it should not have caused this.

The pickup being slightly higher than ideal is not a big deal to me either.....unless oil is trapped up top and you generally will see oil pressure fluctuations if the level was to low and pump was starving.....

Think about just how the oil in the pan is moving around in a wheelstanding car....sitting on a dyno its not under any of those forces....

Small blocks "like" to kill #5 & #6 rods more than any others.....Don't ask me why …..

I hope you find a cause and hate seeing stuff like this....but it happens unfortunately.....

Re: H-I-J '76 Nova re-fit.
 

What are you running for oil filter, can't see in your pictures on dyno.
Need to be a racing filter. Have see racers have trouble with regular street filters.
Larry

Re: H-I-J '76 Nova re-fit.
 

I put the plug back in under the rear cap, it's there for sure.

Re: H-I-J '76 Nova re-fit.
 

NAPA gold 1061

Re: H-I-J '76 Nova re-fit.
 

Square 1, we're back.
https://i.imgur.com/INXGRHjh.jpg

Re: H-I-J '76 Nova re-fit.
 

Todd and Autumn,


Sorry to hear of your engine problems on the dyno.:(


Might want to check a few things in the oiling path.:cool:
A) oil pump pressure relief valve piston to bore. If it sticks open the oil is returned to the sump and kills oil flow to passages.
B) oil filter adapter bypass should be sealed off. IF open it returns oil to sump and supplies unfiltered oil to engine.
C) Plug under rear cap does the same as B) above.
Good Luck on finding the offending issues so you can continue.
D) all the above depends on a properly clearance pump and often out of the box, they are far from it. Although that is probably not the problem, good time to check it.



Hang in there!
Regards,
HB2:)
Dissident

Re: H-I-J '76 Nova re-fit.
 

Nothing wrong with using a 1061...…
That filter has no anti drain back valve and is fine mounted vertically.
A 1060 does have the anti drain back flapper valve.....needed for filters mounted horizontally....

Wix makes Napa filters and they just add a 5 to the number to denote its an oil filter.....

51061 R is their racing oil filter....and I use those...and have used them for years with no problems.....

The only filters I know of that had issues was Fram…..and I saw it first hand and won't use one even on my road vehicles.....

Re: H-I-J '76 Nova re-fit.
 

how much trash did that produce in the oil filter ?

Re: H-I-J '76 Nova re-fit.
 

how much trash did that produce in the oil filter

Re: H-I-J '76 Nova re-fit.
 

Looking at that picture of the bad bearing one side appears to be more worn than the other side that is from left to right do all the others have the same wear pattern???

Re: H-I-J '76 Nova re-fit.
 

Yes, I do assume the crank was wet magged?

Re: H-I-J '76 Nova re-fit.
 

A lot.

Re: H-I-J '76 Nova re-fit.
 

Of the bearings showing copper, yes. You can see in the picture, the bearings that were real bad have the same pattern, worn more on one side than the other. The other weird thing about it is, as you can see some bearings are worn and some are worn really bad (showing copper), the worn bearings are #'s 2-4-6-8, the bearings really bad (showing copper) are from 1-3-5-7.

Re: H-I-J '76 Nova re-fit.
 

It was not.

Re: H-I-J '76 Nova re-fit.
 

Not necessarily in this order but it looks like maybe overfilling (too much oil) causing foaming or aeration --- a blocked oil passage or 2,---- a malfunctioning oil pump or pressure relief valve---- improper bearing selection or installation --- since all the bearings show some damage and those on one side more so than the other side-- also is it possible that you have the left pistons installed on the right bank and vice versa looking at the wear??? and finally crud remaining in the engine block after machining --- You'll find just have to keep on looking FED 387

Re: H-I-J '76 Nova re-fit.
 

Can I see a picture of the crank?

Re: H-I-J '76 Nova re-fit.
 

This is the only one I have as it was coming apart.
https://i.imgur.com/ow5CaiT.jpg

Re: H-I-J '76 Nova re-fit.
 

The rods are the last to get oil, they were starved for oil.

Re: H-I-J '76 Nova re-fit.
 

put it back together with new bearings put the CORRECT amount of oil in it fire it up on the dyno then after a few minutes shut it off--- pull the pan see if it has foam--- then turn it over and pop off the rod caps from 5 & 6 see if they look bad --while you are at it may as well check the others too maybe use a "regular" filter instead of that new fancy one you have see if that makes a difference---- might want to check your oil pressure from that small plug front of the engine on top of the block near the timing cover thats the last place that sees oil

Re: H-I-J '76 Nova re-fit.
 

I can't really tell from the picture....can't see the area that would be a parting line if its cast.....

Is it a steel crank or cast ?

A manual trans with a cast crank was never a good idea in my mind.....

Not sayin it cant be done or if that has anything to do with this failure but if I'm letting a clutch out at 5000-6000rpm and maybe on a 2 step I'm a lot happier with a steel crank in there....

I have used cast cranks and had one in my LT-1 stocker.....automatic trans though...…

Dial bore the rod big ends to see if they might be tapered.....Unless they were cut and rehoned that's pretty unlikely.....

Is the thrust OK....? I assume it was....

Looks like most of the trash was soft bearing material fortunately....

Re: H-I-J '76 Nova re-fit.
 

I already know what happened, the volume drop at the end of the line (rods) was the cause. I had no idea the solid lifters would pump so much more oil to the top coupled with the pressure drop from the EDM holes AND the block being machined for cam oiling in the lifter bores just didn't leave enough volume for the rods, my fault. The filter used was a "regular" filter, and yes checking oil at the front of the block would have been more ideal.

Re: H-I-J '76 Nova re-fit.
 

Crank is a steel one. Rods were fine when checked before assembly, I will check again. Thrust is fine.

Re: H-I-J '76 Nova re-fit.
 

Good...…

I think you have it right.....to much oil up top maybe and volume being bled off various places......starved the bottom end for enough oil....

I've used the lifters with the oil holes on a bracket engine and had no problems using them.

The race filters are less restrictive than a std filter...usually....

Luckily you caught it before it ended up real bad...….

Re: H-I-J '76 Nova re-fit.
 

I really want to keep the EDM lifter, I think restrictors and a step up from the std volume pump will do it.

Re: H-I-J '76 Nova re-fit.
 

Understandably you are trying to correct a problem but stepping up the oil pump will also take more hp to drive it. Controlling the volume is the answer.

Re: H-I-J '76 Nova re-fit.
 

The lifter bore cam oiling modification I am not clear on what was done. If it is possible to undo that ? If a slot or channel was machined I assume it could not be returned to stock. If a hole was drilled you might be able to plug those holes. The direct feed lifters bleed off a lot by themselves right on the cam.

Re: H-I-J '76 Nova re-fit.
 

You said there was a lot of oil coming up thru solid lifters. How did you verify that? If so you might need restricted oil hole pushrods. Or oil restrictors in block

Re: H-I-J '76 Nova re-fit.
 

At this point, I'll give up some power to stop destroying stuff. :D:D

Re: H-I-J '76 Nova re-fit.
 

Lifter bores are machined with a slot, I could bush them but I'm done spending $$$ on a junk block. I thought about returning to a non EDM lifter but I'm worried about the cam with high spring pressure.

Re: H-I-J '76 Nova re-fit.
 

Guys, it’s common for racers with SBC combos in stock Eliminator to run more than 5 quarts of oil....this is how they combat the AHFS....

Re: H-I-J '76 Nova re-fit.
 

The old lifters put very little oil to the rocker, these are like a flood at the rocker. I could tell a huge difference when just pre lubing. I've been told restrictors drilled to .0120 for EDM lifters and it will be easy to swap them if necessary without opening the engine up.

Re: H-I-J '76 Nova re-fit.
 

And... it's a 6qt pan with a 1qt filter with 6qts total, not really so much over filled. I do however think optimum is lower than 6.
For camparison, here is the pan with just under 4qts and the pan with 5 1/2qts. How much HP is here, I haven't got to experiment with, but I will.
https://i.imgur.com/tGxH56x.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/RZlmx9i.jpg

Re: H-I-J '76 Nova re-fit.
 

I had a '69 Nova back in the 90's......G/SA and H/SA

It was a dog.....I bought it turnkey and it was used up...Venolia pistons and way to loose.....

I redid the engine as cheaply as possible with TRW pistons......all old tech stuff , fat rings, old Lunati cam and lifters, STOCK heads and intake. Notice the caps, LOL.....It ran 11.80's at G weight….with a Powerglide…..

One day just for kicks I drained a quart of oil and it made ZERO difference. It had a stock pan on it and I think I put 5-6 in it total.

Cast crank, stock rods......gm block... +.040

That engine just could not pull much past 6800 with that cam and lifters and springs.....

Since you want to keep those EDM'ed lifters and can't fix the lifter bores, you have to try the restrictors...….I used them many times and drilled them out.

The higher oil level in the second picture might have been getting whipped up some by the crank.....

Re: H-I-J '76 Nova re-fit.
 

I am by no means an expert engine builder but I would also be very concerned about the uneven wear pattern on the bearings. I've seen rebuilds that have had a considerable amount of taper in bearing clearance on all of the rods, which could seemingly only be caused by taper in the crank journal, the rod bore, or the bearings themselves. Just a thought.

Re: H-I-J '76 Nova re-fit.
 

What would Tony Fiel do?

Re: H-I-J '76 Nova re-fit.
 

Tony Feil ?
A Really lame post right there no matter what your point is.

Re: H-I-J '76 Nova re-fit.
 

I suppose that depends on your interpretation , but come to think about it, Tony would restrict the oil to the top end of all my solid lifter SS SBC's , 40 years ago.You DO remember that?

In my opinion, here we have we have a stack up of problems causing oil starvation.
Solid lifters with lash, EDM hole in lifter, groove(?) cut down to the cam, middle valley holes raised, (not a bad thing in itself) pick up 1/2 " off the floor of pan, stationary engine on dyno, (again, not a problem in itself) , but it is what it is now, as the pictures illustrate.

Re: H-I-J '76 Nova re-fit.
 

Well since I worked at Tony’s going back to 1966 and for Tony’s former first employee for over 10 years ....
Yes back then it was common practice to tap the 2 side passages under the rear cam bearing and install drilled Allen set screws. It was the preferred method over the screw in the back types.

But we already discussed restricting the oil passages and WTH does Tony have to do with any of this. Nothing and he’s gone so let him RIP

My only point in posting occasionally is maybe to offer some help or make a suggestion from what I see and read.

Re: H-I-J '76 Nova re-fit.
 

Took a picture while I was there today.
https://i.imgur.com/SmePYHW.jpg