Re: Automatic Horsepower Factoring System
 

To Lynn: I'm saying that the santioning bodies didn't just say (as an example): "Gee, I think that for no reason at all we are going to let everyone work on their combustion chambers". When this has been a no-no in the rulebook forever.
*Some people or group of people caused this rule to be changed. Lobbied, threateded, insinuated or just politely asked it dosen't matter. The santioning bodies didn't "give" us anything in that area. I saw the worked over chambers 2 years before the rule was changed. I still see welding in the chamber even tho the new rule forbids it. Some of the smarter tech people see this also. This rule was a responce to an action not a solution to a problem.

*Aftermarket blocks:The sanctioning bodies didn't just "give" us that option. For several years I was asked to write letters, give opinions, talk to so and so about certain chev. blocks that would crack a thrust surface in one or more cylinders within a few passes even at .030. I did not write, I did not give an opinion, and did not talk to the sanctioning bodies. I told my customers that they had chosen a non workable combination in my opinion. Next thing I know the Bowtie block was allowed. It didn't crack cylinder walls, in fact, it held the hone and the roundness of the bore better than a standard block and it weighed more due to more material in critical areas. Now it is common to use 1" or bigger cams and that is the block of choice. The better thickness in critical areas more than offsets the extra weight because the good working cars already had weight hung on the nose. Again, the santioning bodies didn't just one day say "Hey, what the hell lets give some racers aftermarket blocks". It was a responce to an action.

*Aftermarket or replacement cylinder heads: I still have people come to me and say: "I can't find any unmodified or decent 441's, 461's, 462's etc.". What they really meant to say is : "I can't find any unmodified or decent 441's,461's, 462's etc. for 60 bucks a pair anymore". I direct them to Hemmings or Ebay. They say: "Damn, they want 500 - 700 bucks a pair in Hemmings". Racing is expensive. Best way I know of to turn money into smoke and noise. Again, the santioning bodies didn't just have this idea one day and say: "What the hell, lets allow some engines heads with better adaptablility to modification." Again a responce to an action. Not a solution to a problem. There never was any problem.

and so on ......

Lynn, I see you every chance bring up the point of aftermarket or superceeded parts not being available to all and I agree with you. As I said 100%. You are right. I think where I first posted that I didn't think that the santioning bodies had "given" us anything is where we got crossed. I do think that the sanctioning bodies have allowed so much BS at the expense of many to appease the few that it is irrepairable.

Now back to the way it is done: I give my customers that HP that they want. Not what they can afford. I found out a long time ago that a few good customers would pay good money to go fast legally. I can give a customer the most power that I can make and put it in a crap chassis and it won't perform. I can give a customer the best power that I can make and let them and others play with the tune and it won't perform. When I see a guy work on the same combo for years he is usually fast. But when you change the rules from week to week it is a hard thing to over come. Even to very good tuners. When I see 1.2 under passes from customers that can change 3 converters in a weekend, a cam or two, collectors and primaries back and forth and still have time at the end of the day for a cold beverage or two I don't wonder how they ever got to be fast. I know. At the opposite end of the spectrum when I see out of shape cars. Spark plug electrodes burnt completely off and valvetrains destroyed from valve train geometry problems but yet they are 1.2 under at the 1000 ft mark. I don't wonder how they are that fast. I know. Its a underfactored combo. ;-) Take an underfactored combo and give it to a worker instead of a tinkerer and you have a 1.7 under car but it is still underfactored.

Do with the indexes what you want. Trigger where ever you want. It won't change a thing. The small percentage of HP that is gained on Monday was already in the weight box on the pass that tripped the trigger. AHFS was a bad idea to begin with that is too little too late.

Re: Automatic Horsepower Factoring System
 

SS Engine Guy,
Outstanding post. Thanks for taking the time to discuss so many parts of the issue.Now knowing the game as you do what do you think could be done to correct the factoring issue? Can it be done within our class structure or rules?

Re: Automatic Horsepower Factoring System
 

ss engine guy
very good post

Re: Automatic Horsepower Factoring System
 

Nope,
He addressed the issues, pointed out some facts that support the fact AHFS as it sits WILL NOT address the issue of underfactored motors, without punishing hard work by others. My question is what is a suggestion the WILL make a better method of factoring from here on which could be put in place to FIX it.

Re: Automatic Horsepower Factoring System
 

I think you have this backwards. Why give horsepower to an illegal motor making a bogus run and punish the racer with the same combination who is legal. I agree that if a racer goes 1.40 under he should be torn down. Then if he is legal the horsepower is levied. I also think if a racer is responsible for horsepower, that has triggered a review, and is torn down and found to be illegal the horsepower should be reset.

Re: Automatic Horsepower Factoring System
 

Byron,

I agree that no-HP should be given til that engine is torn down and found legal, not just the 1.40 under but any time someone gets factored they need to be torn down......This is the only way to be sure that the HP is Justified, not just add HP on monday because someone went too fast...This needs to happen everytime more HP is added to a combo... Dave,

Re: Automatic Horsepower Factoring System
 

The cold hard facts about this horsepower business. nhra is not going to spend any extra money on Sportsman racing. They have saved 100 K + by parting ways with Len and installing the SRAC and still haven't filled the tech staff at Glendora from what I'm told.

Sure, it would be great if they had the tech staff in place to check the weather and do on-the-spot tear downs if someone pops up with a -1.40 run but it doesn't look like that will ever happen.

I've also heard about a new calculation that may be added to the AHFS. That is, hit a combination if the combination is more than a tenth faster than the over all class average. It's just another band aid for a broken system. The SRAC members have to be impartial and consider what is best for the sport.

nhra has accepted +30 horsepower in changes to many combinations. They should do something clean like lowering the indexes by .30 to match the changes they have accepted. Then start tearing down cars if some racers are out there thumping the hell out of their competition. Flag those who are flying and plan a tear down party for them.

I have only seen one unanimous poll on the Internet, so we shouldn't expect all of us to agree on a contentious issue like the AHFS.

The AHFS should be a top priority of the SRAC and they should also seek general oversight of the AHFS; which includes a serious review of horsepower adjustments by all Stock, Super Stock members of the SRAC.

Re: Automatic Horsepower Factoring System
 

SS Engine Guy,

I agree with most of what you said. Thanks for the explanation.

Weren't we discussing AHFS and heads up? What would you do to address the after market casting situation, bogus combos, bogus intake runner cc list, an ineffective AHFS?

Believe me it could be done. All it takes is the courage and the willingness to do so. I thought that was our talking points. :) If we could all agree on certain issues, maybe these steering committees would take action?

If we never get anything accomplished, it shouldn't be because we didn't try.

Re: Automatic Horsepower Factoring System
 

Lynn, CIC for Stk or SS .

Re: Automatic Horsepower Factoring System
 

Thanks for those that took the time to read my long winded post. I am going to look at some numbers and see if I can come up with a suggestion. I really don't think there is one answer to the situation. And it probably won't please everyone. (or maybe anyone).

Part of what I am going to look at is the difference in cubic inches vs. et. vs, factored hp. vs. makers (Ford, GM, Mopar) within several SS classes and see if any correlation exists. This may apply or may not in Stock eliminator. It may offer a solution or it may only cloud the issues even more. The CIC suggestion may apply here, only in a somewhat different way than what is used in comp.
The problems that the AHFS is supposed to address weren't created in a day. I wish that someone had the answer that would make everyone happy, boost attendence, cause younger racers to get interested and migrate towards our catagories, and in general, make this all the fun that it used to be. Might even collect some sponsorship for our classes along the way. This can't be impossible. It will probably be hard but nothing worth having ever comes easy in life. I personally think that the AHFS is detrimental to our sport.

Re: Automatic Horsepower Factoring System
 

Currently looking in a dragster from 86(cajun souvenir iisue) the indexes were almost a tenth lower back then,they lowered them another .1 a couple years later(+.1 extra for A) the National Records were about .7-.8 higher then...we can bitch forever about the parts and pieces... legal or not...but here we are..and the thing is we cant keep adding HP/weight when cars get faster like the system works now...there should be some room for cars to get faster...or we will need AAA and AAAA in the future...

Re: Automatic Horsepower Factoring System
 

First the indexes can be lowered to make up for all the upgrades. Example start with .5. This still leaves room for credible early racers to race.
There are too many motors currently possible to run to attack this one at a time. I think using punishment for running fast is a killer on Class racing and this Kills interest in our S and SS racing.
One motor could be used as a gauge of hp. Use it and its performance to factor others but there would need to be a decrease in minor variations. There are TOO many 350 Chevy motors to use. Someone always finds another unfairly factored motor to run. I think limiting the combinations would be a good start.
There are too many Classes which allow people to hide a bogus combination also. Limit the numbers of class breaks and consolidate too...

Re: Automatic Horsepower Factoring System
 

Here are some good equations: (not perfect, but good correlations)

HP(dyno) = 0.285 x CFM x 8(cyl)
0.240 for average bracket engine
0.250 for very good bracket engine
0.285 average factor for SS engine (low compression/high cubic inches a bit lower)
0.300 for high compression comp style engine
0.310 for very good comp engine

funny, where is the cubic inches in that equation? ;)

Cylinder Head Choke Equation
CSA(min) = bore x bore x stroke x RPM x .00353/614(fps)
CSA = minimum cross sectional area of intake port
Choke = point at which velocity impedes horsepower

None of these are perfect, but we have been modeling them for the last few years and they make a lot of sense.

Using cubic inches in Super Stock isnt a good idea. There is a reason Hemis make over 900HP and 455 Olds make 600. If you look at the Choke equation it will tell you why.

Re: Automatic Horsepower Factoring System
 

Dick,

I believe that CIC is as screwed up as AHFS. The triggering system is wrong for racing. We must be able as Jack says to predict the potential of the original engine.

This can be done by comparing how racers do with it. If several guys build an engine it should follow a typical bell curve, and that should fall within the limits of other engines. All the highs and the lows will be present, most racer will fall in the average. It will fall in a normal distribution of events. A simple bell curve just like we studied in high school.

If your bell curve is shifted 2 or 3 tenths faster than the average bell curve, your engine HP deserve to be hit. (and not 4HP where it takes 70 years to catch up) It could be because the original HP is rated low, it could be because of a bogus part addition, but it is inescapably skewed.

In a nutshell this prevents the AHFS from focusing on stellar performances by individuals or cheating There will always be fast and slow cars in every combo. Of course we must correct all runs.

Re: Automatic Horsepower Factoring System
 

Lynn,

Run with your ideas. They make some sense even to me who is statistically challenged.

All runs need to be corrected to sea level to mean anything on a national scale.

My pet peeve is adding excessive weight to a given combo chassis. In some cases that's a lot of weight to carry down track and can become unsafe.

If the factory or NHRA rated HP is low for the actual potential of the combo, as HP is added in small or large amounts, the factor should change moving the combo to a quicker class at the original or realistically adjusted shipping weight. Remember the factor is shipping weight divided by factory or NHRA rated HP.

These are race cars, not tanks, let them run. When a (stretching it) stock car can run really quick it will get attention. And if there needs to AAAAA/SA let it be or just move and thus quicken the class indexes to accomodate.

Don't think this is a new idea but what's the downside other than some change??

Just my .02

Re: Automatic Horsepower Factoring System
 

Lynn, Compute a couple of current cars and let us know the results and how it matchs the facts of our racing ets. If this IS the equation lets make a list and fill in some other Bogus cars and see their relationship.

Re: Automatic Horsepower Factoring System
 

I agree that cubic inches may not be the best indicator of rating todays S/SS engines.

Don't have an answer yet. I'd like to see the bell curves applied to a few popular classes also.

Re: Automatic Horsepower Factoring System
 

SS Engine Guy,

I'm new to the stock/super stock type racing. Just started building a L/S mustang and wanted to add my .02 cent's. I saw in one of your post that you wanted to allow boosted cars in the mix! To bring in youner guy's. Are you wanting to allow toyota's, honda's and the like in the classes? I think that would be very hard to do. The only reason I say this is I ran a 170ci Toyota eng in my 88 Mustang. With a stock long block, almost stock cam's, injectors and a turbo change this eng made 837hp at the tires. This type of combo would kill any stock eli car and most of the SS cars. So I don't think it would work. Epecially with the lack of knowledge of most tech guy's when it comes to computers. The only reason I didn't make the move sooner from "Street Car" racing was the fact I didn't understand all the factoring and indexing. I think that if the younger guy's could get help to understand this there would be alot of them that would want to race this type of racing. I still don't fully understand most of the stuff, but its becomeing clearer.

Thanks,
Chris Atkinson

Re: Automatic Horsepower Factoring System
 

Hey Frank,

Nice talking with you at Maple Grove last fall.

There will always problems and issues with any program. Sometimes it creates problems that must be corrected with a sharp guy at the helm. There is no replacement for pure common sense. When a car goes 1.6 under, hitting it 8HP is like a pimple on a charging Rhino.

Re: Automatic Horsepower Factoring System
 

Populating this data with uncorrected runs would be against my very being Dick. I am sure all SSers and Sers would agree. Some fundamental visions would have to be established like what is the average suppose to be? Right now AHFS is proposing the average to be the upper limit of 1.15 under. You cannot make your average also your upper limit. I think the S and SS guys see that for what it is.

Here is some explanation on "how it works." Ignor all the technical stuff as computers figure most of that completely transparent to the user. It is like a good driver doesnt need to know how the engine makes power. ;)

http://money.howstuffworks.com/six-sigma4.htm

Re: Automatic Horsepower Factoring System
 

One of the problems is there is nothing to gain by running FULL out. No big prizes, No one in class to beat.Maybe this is the time to re mention there are too manyClasses allowing people to HIDE bogus combos from the AHFS.
IF classes were condensed to 1/2 the current number this would put people together. If MONEY were at stake for class or heads up in eliminator occurred more often this would PUSH people into running full out THEN more accurate idea of potential performance would be shown. This would work with current AHFS.(Still needs et changed DOWN)(and INDEX changes)
MAKE CLASS a challenge and a goal for people to appreciate winning again and it will help. Speed up the hp change by AHFS but allow soft changes to continue to not over do the adjusting. Consider corrected altitude figures.

Re: Automatic Horsepower Factoring System
 

Forget the trigger, eliminate it. Let fast cars go fast, it's up th the sanctioning body to take a look at who might need it, randomly. They already do it.
If you want to see how fast they really are just record all the incremental times. If your going to sand bag then you're going to have to do it the entire run.
Incremental times will fix this mess real fast.

Ron Ortiz
U/SA tick tock

Re: Automatic Horsepower Factoring System
 

Good 'Ol Farmer, in the early days, had his own computer handy for factoring... an ET vs Weight slide rule style calculator...probably a Moroso brand :)

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/...6L._SS500_.jpg

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Nope, wasn't me.

Re: Automatic Horsepower Factoring System
 

Sorry for the mistake!

Chris

Re: Automatic Horsepower Factoring System
 

This method would work, but you cant penalize a guy for going fast. You should only penalize an engine if the average of everyone using that combo goes fast. For example, if the 10 slowest guys go 3 tenths faster than the 10 slowest guys of another combo, then that tells you more. Looking at one engine with a trigger method destroys class racing.

It tells you nothing unless you consider the air quality. He also needed a weather station.

Re: Automatic Horsepower Factoring System
 

Lynn, many of us remember they way farnmer did things...although many times it was not pretty, he seemed fair and there was not the issues we have today with the factoring. Do not get me wrong, with all the new technology and science today, the problem can be solved with a computer program.