Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

Yeah, I'd like a 2-door Lemans. But since they are lighter, they'll have to go a little quicker. The base models will run F or G. Higher models will run G or H. I like the idea of adding some weight to the rear. So, of these, I'd like to run the H/SA combo. That index is 12.15. So you'd need to run a 12.00 flat in hot weather. That sounds doable, without a high dollar engine. :)

The weight would be 11.5 x 315 = 3622.5 lbs.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...px?ENGINE=2068

http://www.classracerinfo.com/NHRA_Classes.aspx

Another engine that I think might work is the '70 360hp 455 with #64 heads. According to the classracerinfo site, it was just refactored to 345hp. I reckin it is the highest compression 455 you could run. You can shave the heads down to 75cc, and wind up with 12.44 CR., according to the info sheet.

We ran one of these motors out of a street GTO, in 3 different bracket cars, way back yonder. It ran 12.40's and 50's with a TH400, a stock 13" converter and 3.55 gears. We ran it for 3 seasons. It won lots of races and probably logged between 600 & 800 passes total.(we went to 49 races in '78) And I think it had well over 50,000 street miles when I got it. It was my 1st 455. It made a believer out of me. :)

And it taught me a lot. It broke every part of the drive train, at one time or another--a Glide, a TH350 out of an 11 sec nova, several TH400 int sprags, a Buick 10 bolt, an 8.5 ten bolt(I tried to get by one race before tacking the axle tubes to the center section), and of course a couple of driveshafts. That thang was a torque monster. :eek: I had only raced 400's prior to that. I had no idea about the torque of a 455 and what it could break. :(

This engine should haul a '70 A-body Pontiac Stocker down the track pretty quick. :)

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...px?ENGINE=2050

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

OK, if I decide to try a '72 Lemans combo. I need to know what to look for. So, right off I know that the '71 & '72 Lemans look very similar. I'll look up some pics online to see if I can spot the differences. If they are close enuff to the same, that will increase the chances that I might find a decent junker to build.

OK, I been lookin at 'em online. The only difference I've spotted is the grills. The '71 has only 1 bright strip horizontally across the middle of both grill pieces. The '72 has 2 different style grills. One style has 2 bright strips horizontally across both grills. The other type appears to have a 2-piece grill on each side. It looks like two pieces sitting on top of each other. The pics can explain it better than me.

If any of you guys know anything else that would need to be changed on a '71, to pass NHRA tech as a '72, please post that info. Thanks. :)

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

Because of the high price of GTO's, I figure there are quite a few of these cars doing bracket duty. But, most of these cars are out past my meager finances at this time. And some of 'em are probably cut up too much on the inside. And there is a wide variety of hoods and scoops on 'em.

At last check, a '71 held the E/SA national record. :)

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

My bad the 350 was not available in the GTO on `68.

Hey if you`re interested I am selling my `68 GTO F/SA car ready to go. 400 350/325 hp.

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

Hey, thanks for the offer. But if I had plenty to plunk down for a race ready Stocker, I wouldn't be doing this thread. And, as mentioned earlier, I am not a big fan of the '68 Goat. Just don't like the bumper/tail light set-up. I'm not sure why--maybe it's just me. But I love the '69 rear.

Speaking of buying a race ready Stocker, if I'd had the coins, I'da probably bought Mike Morgan's Bird. He did quite well with it at the US Nationals. :)

http://classracer.com/classforum/showthread.php?t=54677

http://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCSt...r2014#indextop

http://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCSt...r2014#indextop

http://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCSt...r2014#indextop

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

Just started cruising the net to see what's out there.

This '72 GTO is the 1st thing I saw that is interesting.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pontiac-GTO-...US_Cars_Trucks

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

oldskool, not sure if it would work for you or not but there is a decent looking 71 LeMans wagon on Minneapolis minn craigslist now. Sorry, but I cant post a link

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

Yeah, the Bird scoops and amber headlights really give that wagon some personality, don't they ?

I'll probably have to find something a little cheaper and a little closer to home. It would cost me a grand to get a car shipped from that far away. I'm in north Louisiana.

And something else I've realized is that for Stocker purposes, I need to find a car as complete as possible, at least body and interior wise. I never worried about it in the old days. I bought all the cheap Birds and A-bodies I could find and stacked 'em up behind my shop. When it was time to put another car together, I'd just go out back and snatch what ever I needed off another car and put it on the racer.

It's hard to believe now. But I bought literally dozens of Birds and Goats, and rarely ever gave more than $350 for 'em. And some of 'em had running 400 engines, TH400 or 4-speed and posi rear. If I'da knew they would be worth what they are today, I'd be a rich dude. :( I bought a '70 GTO vert for $350 off a used car lot--400, 4-speed.

When I got it home TJ said we oughta take it for a spin. So, I dropped the top and we took off up the road. It turned out to be my only street ride in a ragtop--well, except for a little test and tune in a '68 Bird I built for TJ to race. I may have had to give a whopping $500 for this one--don't remember. But hey, back then they were just old high mileage cars that nobody else wanted. Times have really changed. :)

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

http://easttexas.craigslist.org/cto/4796957483.html


http://shreveport.craigslist.org/cto/4841245286.html


http://fortsmith.craigslist.org/cto/4841158976.html


http://littlerock.craigslist.org/cto/4827976687.html


http://batonrouge.craigslist.org/cto/4845166129.html


http://tulsa.craigslist.org/cto/4840084797.html


http://carbondale.craigslist.org/cto/4828614149.html


http://northmiss.craigslist.org/cto/4835095290.html


http://bham.craigslist.org/cto/4820748901.html

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

[QUOTE=Dwight Southerland;459262]

http://fortsmith.craigslist.org/cto/4841158976.html[/URL]



Hey thanks for the links. That Lemans in Fort Smith looks interesting. Wish it was a little closer, so I could go check it out. Google says I'm over 350 miles and nearly 6 hours from there. :(

But I think I'll contact him anyhow, for more details. Thanks again ! :)

Just sent an E-mail for more info.

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

Since this is an AZ car, it probably don't have a whole lot of serious rust, and would make somebody a good "start from scratch" Stocker. But I don't live close to AZ. Cars like this, in my area, have long since rusted down and were taken to the crusher--engine, trans and all. :(

http://www.carsforsale.com/used-cars...n-az-229449966

And if I had more $ than I could spend, I'd probably buy this one, just because I love black and it's about the best lookin '72 Lemans I've seen. :)

http://www.carsforsale.com/used-cars...s-mi-228466100

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

If that wagon really has new paint and good interior it probably isnt to far outta line. Make him a lower offer , grab a cheap flight and drive that baby home!!!

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

My buddy and I have a 79 T/A. It's in pieces, definitely a project. It has split mono leafs and a well prepped 10 bolt with all the good Strange parts in it. Have a mild steel rollbar and subframe connectors, not installed. Have Cal-tracs.

Also have a quarter panel, don't remember which side. Also have patch panels for both sides. Gas tank already removed. No engine or tranny. Still have original 10 bolt and honeycomb wheels. Probably a lot of other stuff that could go as well, just need to look.

Was originally going to be IHRA crate motor car. Moved onto other projects.

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

Yeah, I've thought about the '79's. They can be used for a '79-'81 model. But except for the little 301, the only other Pontiac engine is the '79 with a W72 400. But it only came with a 4-speed. So I assume NHRA will not let you run an auto in a '79 400. I reckin you can replace the nose and tail with the '77-'78 style and claim one of those years. But, that's money and labor. Would probably only be worth it if you already have the parts, and find a real bargain '79-'81.

Since that was the peak production year for Birds, there are more of them out there for sale than any other Bird. So, I've found more '79 bargains than anything else. Just a few years back, I bought a '79 bracket Bird roller for $400. It had been run with a BBC. Had a 6-point, racing seat and belts, 8.5 ten bolt with 4.10 gears, batt cut off, 4 Weld wheels, 9" slicks and small fronts, one of the big $200 + hood scoops, and BBC headers with 18" collector extensions.

Now I realize that bargains like this don't come along every day. But I live in an area where the economy is considered "depressed". And if you can catch somebody at just the right time, you can find some real deals around here. Then, of course, there are a few guys around here who know what old cars are worth, who try to buy up all the bargains, then jack up the price to make a big profit. :(

The reason I even went to look at this car is because he told me it was a '78. But when I saw what a bargain it was, I bought it anyhow. But, I bought my '74 Vent and the '69 T 350HO Stocker I mentioned, so I didn't need the '79 Bird. I kept all the racing parts except the rear end, and traded the rest for some Pontiac engine parts.

Never took any full shots of it. Here's the only partial I can find. It shows a Weld wheel, the hood scoop, and holes in the quarter where they had the outside batt charging lugs.

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

If the bottom ain't rotted out, this might make somebody a good 350 engine car. I've read that the salt eats up the bottom of some of these northern cars. :(

http://classiccars.com/listings/view...michigan-49601

Here's a former National record holder.

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

Now if you're gonna build a car that will just barely run under it's index, you will need to be concerned about heads up races with someone in your class. So, I'm thinkin that when planning which class to run, It would be a good idea to try to run a class which has fewer cars in it.

So, I decided to look at the field of cars at some of last years races to see which classes had the most cars. The US Nationals has the biggest field. So that's where I looked 1st.

http://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCSt...r2014#indextop

Of the possible classes that I might run, it seems that there were more G/SA cars than anything else, with 13. Next was F/SA with 8 cars and E/SA with 7. Then H/SA & K/SA had 6 cars each. I/SA had 3 and J, L, M & N/SA had only 2 cars each.

Now I realize that a barely under car would not qualify at Indy. But I chose to look at this race 1st cause it had the biggest field. So if this race had been an all run race, I would have had the least chance of a heads up race by running in I, J, L, M or N/SA.

But since I would be going only to races in my division 4, it would probably be better for me to consider only those division 4 races to determine the better classes to run to avoid a heads up run. So, I'll take a look.

OK, at the 1st division race, there were 7 cars in G/SA. So that is a class I do not need to run.

The classes with no cars entered were J, K, & N/SA.

2nd race: There were 4 G/SA cars. K/SA had no cars.

3rd race: There were 6 H/SA & 4 G/SA cars, but no K/SA cars.

4th race: There were 5 G & H/SA cars, no L or N/SA cars.

5th race: There were 6 in G/SA, 4 each in H & I/SA, no
K, M or N/SA cars.

So, from the races in my division it looks like K/SA would be my best choice, followed by N/SA. Now that is strictly from a no heads up racing stand point. The worst class I could run is G/SA, followed by H/SA, then I/SA. To run any of these 3 classes would mean an almost certain heads-up lost. :(

So, in order to try and look at this thing from every angle, in the next post we'll look up some combos that would put me in either K/SA or N/SA.

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

I hate to show you this, but i have the 7m5 heads, intake, trw 455 shortblock, and even a legal stocker cam, to make this thing run easily under the index...also have a 2.75 low gear 400 trans, and 4200 ATi converter...heck i even have some 1 3/4'' headers for it... it is my next project... It runs 13.60s right now, with 235/75 mastercrafts, and log manifolds...it has 462/cast pistons/6x heads/3.90 gears currently....and ive won 2 Wednesday night test and tune trophies with it, in 5 outings...i drove it to work, today...hehe :D.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.n...cba4e246108997
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.n...773addb908a4c3

https://scontent-a-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/...27&oe=552DDE77

https://scontent-b-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/...5a&oe=55620F35

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

That is a killer wagon Brent!

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

OK, I'll do some diggin and come up with several combos that will put me in K/SA. The weight break for it is 13.00 lbs/hp, and the index is 12.65.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/NHRA_Classes.aspx

Well, if I use the '72 455 we've discussed, I'll need one of the "Tons a Fun" Lemans wagons. Hey, I can live with that.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...px?ENGINE=2068

Next, I could run a '73 250hp 455. I could run farther under with a Bird, since the hp factor for 'em is 306. But, to make K with that engine I can use a Luxury Lemans, a GTO, or a GP. Hey, you can race just about anything with wheels on it. But I don't like the looks of the rear of the '73 Lemans and GTO. I'd much prefer the look of the GP.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...px?ENGINE=2079

The '74 250hp 455 is almost identical to the '73--same heads. So to make K with it I'd need a Grand Am or a GP. Once again, I'd prefer a GP.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...px?ENGINE=2092

I'd really prefer to run a 455 combo, because of it's low end torque, and lower operating rpm. But I'll go ahead and check out some options with smaller engines. I'll start with the 400. Most of the earlier years have an NHRA factor that is equal to or higher than the 455's. But some of the later model, low comp 400's have a decent factor.

The best one I see is the '77, with a 260hp factor, in anything except a Bird. All the big cars were downsized that year. So I could make K with Cats, Bonnies, 2-door Lemans models, and a Can Am. Of these, I'd much rather run the Can Am. But that's now sort of a high dollar collector car. So, one of the others would have to do. I'm thinkin that if you can find a good clean one, that one of the Cats or Bonnies would be the cheapest. And would probably look a bit better too.(at least to me)

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...spx?ENGINE=764

I just checked out the 350 engines. To me, they are factored too close to the 400 factors, and give up 50 cubes. So I would not try to run a 350.

OK, to summarize this post, for K/SA, as of right now, I'd prefer to run a 455 in either '72, '73 'or '74. The '72 would be in a Lemans wagon. Both the '73 and '74 would be in a Grand Prix. But, I haven't seen any GP's racing. There may be a good reason--don't know yet. :)

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

Hey Brent, I was busy gathering info for my last post and just saw your post. Them old wagons are cool. :cool:

I don't know who's idea it was to make the GTO front available on a wagon, but I think it was a great idea ! :)

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

Actually, I dug up a few pics of racin GP's. As I'm sure most know, the GP's got their distinctive new, long nose--short deck body style in '69. They had lots of changes after that, but retained the basic design from '69-'77.

Here's the pics I Googled up. :)

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

Clegg raced a '73 SD 455 Grand Prix for a while. Cool car.

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

I couldn't find any pics of the Clegg GP. But on the Clegg site I found some pics that bring up a couple of questions. This '74 SS Bird has the TA shaker hood, fenders and rear spoiler, but no wheel flares. I've seen pics of a '73 SD Formula that had only the TA shaker hood. But I haven't seen any pics of a '74 TA without the wheel flares.

So, my question is: can you race a TA without the wheel flares in stock ? SS ?

Also, do you have to run the full shaker set-up, or can you attach the shaker to the hood and run a big filter ? Or ? In other words, what is the best set-up for racing with a shaker ? I've seen lots of TA's racing. Just never saw their shaker set-up. :)

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

This sorta sparked my interest. I never knew that the 455SD came in a GP, or anything except Birds. But NHRA allows them in Lemans, GTO, Grand Am, & GP. So, what's the deal ? Did any 455SD's actually come in these other cars ?

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...px?ENGINE=2080

I remember when a mag named the '73 GTO car of the year, when it was announced that it could come with the 455SD. :)

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

Can't attach the shaker scoop to the hood.
It has to attach to the engine...even with no filter assy.

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

OK, I have another question. According to this NHRA spec sheet on the '79 W72 220hp 400 engine, this engine only came with a manual trans. This is also what I've always read.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...spx?ENGINE=792

However, tho this page says "Notes: Class Limits--Available with Manual transmission only", it also lists the hp factor for an auto trans at 270 for Stock, and 285 for SS/auto. So, does that mean you can or can't run a '79 Bird with a 400 and auto trans ?

It seems that if engines are legal in bodies they never actually came in, then it should be OK to run an auto behind an engine that came only with a stick. They say the '77 W72 400 is legal with an auto, only in a Can Am.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...spx?ENGINE=765

So if an auto is not legal in the '79, then do you guys think it would do any good to put in a request(or whatever the process is) to get an auto approved for a '79 220hp 400 Bird ? Maybe nobody has ever tried it. If not, would some of you guys who have a little clout with NHRA, please make a proper request for this ?

It seems to me to be a sensible and reasonable request, considering that they will allow almost any auto, besides what came in your car, stall converters, aftermarket blocks, forged pistons & rods, different rear ends, alum heads for some engines, etc, etc, etc.

Some might say, why bother ? Because there were more '79 Birds built than any other year model. Therefore there are more of 'em for sale than any other year, which, on average, will make 'em cheaper to buy. Hey, even if I never race one, it might help somebody else down the line.

If they are already legal and it is just not reflected on this spec sheet, then somebody please tell me where to find that info. Thanks ! :)

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

I'm no expert on NHRA's rules by any means, but if it in fact only came with a manual trans, then I'm pretty certain you can only run it a s a manual. Otherwise, I would build a 1993 Ford Cobra, (came with manual only), with an automatic. Now whether or not the '79/400 Bird came with an automatic or not, I have no idea. But I do know I had a brand new '79 Bandit Edition in '79 that was an automatic, but it was a 403 Olds engine.

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

The rules are the rules & that's why no-one runs a 1979 with an auto trans? I tried several times to change the rule, was told that was the only way they came from the Factory with a 400ci pontiac... You can change the nose cone & rear bumper and call it a 1977--1978 ??? Make sure you check the NHRA factored HP first , not the factory HP ? Its 60-70 HP difference !! Go Get-em !

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

Yeah, the 403 came with an automatic. But the 400 had only a stick. But, all 2nd gen Bird bodies came with autos, with some engines. So, with the Stock rules as liberal as they are today, why not allow any GM auto tranny, with the same number of gears, in any GM body, regardless of which motor is in the car. Just seems like a waste of a fairly cheap source of possible Stocker bodies. Cause there ain't too many guys gonna build a stick car, given the bracket racing nature of today's Stock class..

Have you or somebody else who races the '93 Cobra you are referring to, ever petitioned NHRA to allow an auto for it ? :confused:

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

Yeah I just checked the sheet for the '77 W-72 400 cars. I mentioned earlier that the Can Am is the only car that could run an auto behind a '77 W-72. But I checked some online info and discovered that the Can Am never came with a stick. So I took another look at the spec sheet. Here's what it says. "Auto only in Can Am". So, earlier, I took that to mean that the Can Am was the only body in which an auto was legal with that engine.

But what they meant was that the Cam Am was legal only with an auto, and not with a stick. The site I checked said they came only with a TH400, and none were produced with a stick. I'm not real familiar with the Can Am, so I'll do a bit more research on 'em. I do like the looks of 'em, for whatever that's worth. :)

And the hp factor difference is 20hp instead of 60-70.

I just looked at the '78 W-72 specs. The factor is the same as the '77. But there is no note about using a manual only. So, I assume that you can run an auto in a '78. But, the engine is only legal in a Formula or a TA. For '77 it is listed as being legal in the Lemans, including wagons, as well as the Birds and Cam Am. So, one of the '77 Lemans models would probably be the cheapest body you could use, with a W-72 400 / auto.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...spx?ENGINE=317

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...spx?ENGINE=765


Of the later model 400's I still think the '77 180hp 400, in any body except a Bird is the best low comp 400 combo, at 260hp factor. About the only difference I can see in the 2 motors is cam lift. But, since there is no limit on dur, the cam shouldn't make that much difference. But then I've never run either engine, so I'll leave that call for the experts. :)

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...spx?ENGINE=764

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...spx?ENGINE=764

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

I would have to agree... they are cool cars, either way... Im itchin to throw the stuff in mine to make it a legal Stocker, since i have everything...just need bigger rear axle..that 8.2 wouldnt last long...

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

I'm not racing a 93 Cobra in Stock. I would if I could run automatic. I am building an '89 Coupe for M/N Stock Auto. Truth is, I'm more of a purist at heart. I like the fact that the cars have to run the basic combo as produced.

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

I'm glad you brought that up. So what is the cheapest way to come up with a rear that will last ? Will all the GM '68-'72 A-body 12 bolt & 8.5" ten bolts, bolt right in ?

I assume that all BBC '68-'72 A-bodies had one that would work ? It seems that I remember reading that some Olds and Buick '71 & '72 A-bodies had one. And I think I read that the 455 T-37's had 12 bolts ? Not sure tho. Lots of guys are trying to get about $1500 or more for an original 12 bolt. Does anybody have all the info on this subject ?

Then, of course, for those on an unlimited budget, most of the rear end specialty companies can fix you up for about $3000 or a little more. :eek:

Ebay usually has some used and rebuilt 12 bolts listed. But the shipping is probably high on top of the purchase price.

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw...r+end&_sacat=0

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

Yep, the Buick is the way to go...you dont want the olds rear, as im pretty sure they are some weird deal... In my case, i can legally run a BOP hoghead from the early 60s, since its legal to run a rear axle from the same manufacturer, and i have a good selection of go fast parts for it. I would just have to get it narrowed, and have all the brackets and perches relocated...but an 8.5 would be ok, with all the good stuff in it...ring and pinion would take a beating, but probably hold up fairly well...but, if i can ever get the funds together, i will have the big Pontiac rear axle retrofitted...

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

Yeah, my engine guy has a 66 GTO bracket car. The 12 bolt was all he needed til he got passed the high 9's. Then he wiped it out. So now he recommend's something stronger, for anything below a real high 9.

He also chose the big, chunk type Pontiac. What were they, something like '58-'64 ? But as you say, setting one up ain't easy or cheap. A 12 bolt or 8.5' ten bolt will be strong enuff for me. :)

For those interested, this place sells parts for the big Olds/Pontiac rear.

http://fabcraftmetalworks.com/

I wonder how much the big rear will slow a car down ? With the extra rotating weight, it has to take a little more hp to turn it, huh ?

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

OK, I've been lookin at some of the possible bodies I could run. As indicated by the thread title, I like Firebirds. I just think they look cool and make great race cars. :cool:

But, as most of you guys know, the cars that look best are not always the best car to race. There are a lot of other factors to consider. And one of the main factors to consider is the hp factor of the engine that is legal for the body you'd like to use.

Now, I've already mentioned that I'd like to run a 455, and gave the reasons why. But, since I also have several sets of 6x heads, I'd consider running a 400 engine. Now we went thru a discussion of the '77-'79 W-72 and decided that the hp factor is too high at 290hp, and you can't run an auto in a '79.

But, until there is a significant refactor of the '77 180hp 400 engine, it appears to be a decent choice for a Stocker at 260hp. But, if you run that engine in a Bird, the factor for the same exact engine is 283hp. So I reckin that means that there have been several makin some noise with that engine in a Bird. I guess it's just the old " go too quick and git hit with a refactor" game, that many of you guys are very familiar with.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...spx?ENGINE=764

Anyhow, since the '77 Bird with a 400 doesn't look too good at 283hp, and I don't really wanna run a 350, I'll consider the '77 400 @ 260hp in a non-Bird body. Now I figure it would be a gamble, because if some of the quick guys decide to run this combo and they make a little noise, then it could become a bad combo quick. :(

But, for the sake of discussion, I'll discuss some of the possible bodies that can be used with this engine. Just so the post won't be quite so long, I'll stop it here and continue in the next post. :)

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

OK, here's all the bodies that can run the 180hp 400 engine, There are a few more wagons on page 2.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...spx?ENGINE=764

Now I briefly touched on this in posts # 97 &100. But just to refresh, I discovered from checking last year's division 4 Stocker entries, that there were fewer cars in K/SA and N/SA than most other classes I could run. If you run your index or just barely below it, you need to avoid heads up runs with cars in your class. So I decided to look at which '77 bodies would make it into these classes using the 180hp 400.

As I'm sure most of you guys know without even looking, K is a 13.00lbs/hp class, and N is a 14.50 lbs/hp class. The K/SA index is 12.65, and N/SA is 13.00.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/NHRA_Classes.aspx

So, let's look at the cars that will fit in K/SA. I'll kick out the Can Am right off, because they are now high $ collector cars. That leaves all the Catalina, Bonneville, and the 2-door Lemans models. Now, for weight transfer, I figure the shorter wb cars will work better. So if this is the only consideration, the Lemans win with their 112" wb. But, with only a 116" wb, I don't think traction will be a problem with the Cats or Bonnies. They're the same wb as the GP.

Well, I could race a Lemans, but as I've mentioned, I just really don't like the look of the sloped rear deck of the '73-'77 models. So, I Googled up some pics of the Cats and Bonnies. After checkin 'em out as much as I could online, I chose a 2-door Bonnie as my #1 pick.

But, it needs to be the base model Bonnie, not the Broughm. And the reason is not just for looks. I'll show some pics to illustrate this, but the main reason for choosing the base model is because it has more rear side glass than the Broughm. The reason this is important to me is for side vision.

Because of my experience in bracket racing, I discovered the importance of being able to see EXACTLY where your opponent is as you near the finish line. Mirrors don't help in a close finish. If you're the slower car and in the left lane, you need to be able to see the car in the right lane as early as possible when you're close to the finish line. So, the more right side glass you have, the sooner you can see your opponent. Hey, it's called 'brakelight racing" by some, and for good reason.

Now, I better stop right now and say this. I have read enuff on this site to realize that SOME (not all) class racers do not hold bracket racers in very high esteem. Many think that bracket racers are too dumb and / or lazy to build a class car. While that may be true in some cases, it is certainly not true in all cases ! Hey, there are a LOT of class racers who also run bracket. I'd say that most choose bracket racing because that is all their local tracks race, they can build a competitive car MUCH cheaper(with a few dime rockets being the exceptions), they are not limited by so many rules, and they can run for much larger purses than Stockers, at many events throughout the country, and have a chance to beat the high $ cars with their low budget ride. That's just reality.

Another thing that is reality is that except for the same class, heads up rounds, Stock and SS racing today, during the actual, on track competition, uses the exact same rules as bracket racing. Each car sets their own dial(their index or quicker), and if you go quicker than your dial, it's a breakout. That means that a 13 sec car, dialed exactly on his index, can beat a 9 or 10 sec car. That's how it works in bracket racing. :)

And it's a good thing that Stock & SS class racing uses the bracket system. If not, the classes would probably have vanished long ago. Or it would have become a race between a few rich guys, just like all the no breakout race classes. The guys with the most money to spend, buy the quickest cars, get the best drivers, and win most of the races. :(

OK, on my next post we'll look closer at the '77 Bonnies. :)

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

OK, if the online info is correct, here is a '77 base model Bonneville. The one I like for racing is the 2-door with the swept back roof line. Back in the old days we called 'em "fastback" . It appears as if the bottom of the rear window is aprox half way of the rear wheel well. This will give that extra little bit of side vision I mentioned.

The 4-door rear window doesn't go as far back, so there is less side vision. And the Landau roof has much less glass and more metal. So this type roof will give less side vision than the other 2-door roof type.

But there is a problem with these cars. There ain't many left. Most have been crushed long ago. They are not a sporty lookin car like a Bird, so there is just no demand for 'em. So, just finding one of 'em may be tuff. Therefore, I'll expand my possible choices to provide a better chance of finding a suitable car. :)