Re: Project - NHRA Stock and S/S results 61-68
See the tables on pg4 (they need updating) and RatPatrol's list on page 8.
I found the Filo car for L/S=13.00 57 Chev 150 2dr wagon 3406/250=13.62 The 2dr post I had guessed is a better fit to class, but that's Filo in the picture in the T-T race against an identical L/S wagon. Filo's name is on the door. https://archive.petersen.org/pages/p...php?ref=318339 |
Re: Project - NHRA Stock and S/S results 61-68
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Posted on Class Racer a number of years ago. Stan |
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A hardtop GTA is not as good a fit as the 2dr post 3267/320=10.21 but the big GTA hardtop does (barely) fit class at 3356/320=10.49 so that would fit our mystery for F/SA=10.00 at 69 Indy. I'm guessing that because a 2dr post wouldn't be called a GTA, it would just be a 2dr post with a 390GT engine and a C6 auto. But, some refer to the "engine" as the "car". Either way I think this confirms Simon also had a 390/320 car that fits this class. |
Re: Project - NHRA Stock and S/S results 61-68
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As far as Simons' car being a factory 427, I think more hype would have been made about it if that were the case at auction, and it wouldn't have pulled such low numbers. Looks like it was a 289 car according to the same post where the other quote was pulled from... http://classracer.com/classforum/sho...t=47333&page=2 |
Re: Project - NHRA Stock and S/S results 61-68
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I was being an optimist but I think you're right! All we know for sure is the 67 Ford part seems to be right. So the cars that fit class are: 3258/320=10.18 390gt/320 67 Fairlane 2dr Post c6 A couple other Fairlanes, then the heaviest under 10.50: 3356/320=10.49 390gt/320 67 Fairlane GTA 3235/320=10.11 390gt/320 67 Mustang Convertible 4203/410=10.25 427/410-4v Big Ford Ranch Wagon Strangely, the Fairlane adds 57 lb for the C6 but the Big Ford and Mustang dont add any. |
Re: Project - NHRA Stock and S/S results 61-68
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DC - Re Marv Ripes -
Gary Glover sent me this - he went to the 69 Nats with Marv. |
Re: Project - NHRA Stock and S/S results 61-68
So here’s the list as it now stands.
A/S - P Scalia - 69 Camaro - 11.81 @ 116.73 A/SA - H Lang - 63 Plymouth Savoy - 11.65 @ 111.11 B/S - Tom Schumacher - 67 Fairlane - 12.09 B/SA- C/S- Norm Fryer - 66 Chev Biscayne - 12.06 @ 110.70 C/SA - Tritak/Morgan - 63 Plymouth - 12.42 @ 91.42 D/S - William Robertson - 69 Camaro Z28- 12.24 @ 109.89 D/SA - B Bunker - Pontiac GTO - 12.45 @ 110.97 E/S - D Durbin - 68 Camaro Z28 - 12.25 @ 112.21 E/SA - T Callahan - 62 Fury - 12.60 @ 101.46 F/S - J Marks - Olds W30 - 12.44 @ 101.69 (Verified Casey Marks) F/SA- Dick Simon - Fairlane 500 - 12.74 @ 100.67 G/S - Larry Lombardo - 61 Corvette - 14.32 @ 64.79 G/SA- Bob Burkett - 63 Dodge Wagon - 13.17 @ 92.40 H/S- Frank Iaconio - 57 Chev 150 - 14.47 @ 71.48 H/SA - Merkle - Fairlane vert - 13.21 @ 93.85 I/S - B. Rowe - Unknown - 12.66 @ 109.48 I/SA - Thropp - 57 Pontiac Chieftan - 13.46 @ 95.64 J/S - Morrison - 57 Chev 210 - 13.03 @ 103.32 J/SA - Dougherty - 57 Chev 150 delivery - 13.32 @ 104.16 K/S - Allen-Kling - 57 Chev Wagon - 15.44 @ 56.35 K/SA- W Walker - 57 Chev Delivery - 13.60 @ 102.73 L/S - D Filo - 57 Chev 150 2 door wagon- 13.58 @ 100.67 L/SA- G Cureton - 56 Chev Delivery - 13.66 @ 99.88 M/S - I Vaubel - 56 Chev 210 - 13.71 @ 100.44 M/SA - Wayne Jesel - 56 Chev Delivery- 13.90 @ 96.68 N/S - J Machula - 55 Chev 150 - 13.78 @ 98.40 N/SA - Marv Ripes - 57 Chev 210 sedan - 14.11 @ 86.78 (Verified Gary Glover) O/S- Westberg/Westfall - 55 Chev 210 - 14.18 @ 84.28 O/SA P/S - Bob Beckett - 55 Chev Wagon 210 - 15.06 @ 92.11 - (Boyce verified) P/SA Q/S - Dave Boertman - 59 Chev Biscayne - 15.17 @ 60.36 Q/SA R/S- Tom Neja - 57 Chev Wagon 150 -15.37 @ 74.26 R/SA T/S - Ivar Smiltnieks - 52 Oldsmobile 88 - 15.83 @ 86.87 (Correct spelling) T/SA U/S - Ted Harbit - 51 Studebaker - 16.22 @ 82.64 U/SA V/S - D Hamburger - 50 Oldsmobile - 16.55 @ 82.11 V/SA |
Re: Project - NHRA Stock and S/S results 61-68
Moving on to SS -
DC, What are the differences between the 69 Mustangs in different classes? SS/G - A Rainero - 68 Mustang Fastback - 11.35 @ 121.45 SS/GA - John Elliot- 69 Mustang Fastback - 11.62 @ 119.52 SS/H - S Wilson - 69 Mustang Fastback - 11.32 @ 121.13 SS/HA - B Allie - 69 Mustang - 11.67 @ 119.84 SS/I - Jerry Harvey - 69 Mustang Fastback - 11.43 @ 116.42 SS/IA - Bob Glidden - 69 Mustang Fastback - 11.89 @ 115.96 |
Re: Project - NHRA Stock and S/S results 61-68
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SS/H=9.00 1969 R-code cold air 428CJ, factored to 360hp Fastbacks were 9.09 lb/hp, Coupe (Allie IIRC) was 9.03 lb/hp, 22 lb lighter but the weight savings was off the rear, and aero wasnt quite as good so probably a wash. Most ran the Fastback cuz it looked more "racy", kinda like chrome valve covers make your car faster. SS/I=9.50 1969 Q-code flat hood / warm air 428CJ, factored to 340hp. |
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Lightweight Fastbacks? Do you mean the original factory race cars? What is a Qcode? A 4V? Re the SS/J Cobra - Was that a Shelby AC Cobra....or a Shelby Mustang Cobra 500? |
Re: Project - NHRA Stock and S/S results 61-68
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Originally, Ford wanted these cars to run SS/F=9.50 class at 1968 Pomona so 3184/335=9.50 exactly for the "135" cars, vs 3266/335=9.75 for the normal 428CJ fastback. Ford was trying to give them every weight advantage they could. After factoring to 360hp before 68 Pomona, the cars ended up as 3184/360=8.82, in the SS/E=8.70 class for 1968 Superstock and 3266/360= 9.07, in C/S=9.00 class for 1968 stock "normal" 428CJs So, "lightweight" just means the Shipping Weight was 82 lb lighter than a "normal" 68 Fastback Mustang, so they ended up running in the same Superstock class but just 82 lb lighter. Convoluted story. There's only ONE 428CJ engine, "officially", all factory rated at 335hp. The R-code had a cold air hood & scoop, so NHRA factored it to 360hp. In 1969, the Q-code appeared with a flat hood, getting warmer underhood air. That was factored by NHRA to 340hp. So you could change hoods & run the car in 2 different classes, as many often did. * To further confuse THAT, in 1968, all Mustangs were R-codes, cold air, factored to 360hp. But in 1968, all Fairlannes (and Cyclones if any) were also "called" R-codes, but had flat hoods / warm air, but still factored at 360hp by NHRA, a full class disadvantage so I don't think anybody ran one. The 1969 Cobra is just a Fairlane - kind of Ford's answer to the Road Runner - a cheap grocery getter except for the powertrain. At Fairlane Cobra, 428CJ R-code scoop 3600/360=10.00 W/P Or Fairlane Cobra, 428CJ Q-code flat hood 3600/340=10.59 That would be a really heavy Cobra AC Roadster! |
Re: Project - NHRA Stock and S/S results 61-68
Thx mate...that explains it beautifully!
Never knew there was a Fairlane Cobra Jet! |
Re: Project - NHRA Stock and S/S results 61-68
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But the car doesnt fit class - not even close. The Fairlane 500 Convert fits D/SA=9.00: 3688/410=9.00 exactly with 427/410hp-4v If swapped to the next engine down, the car is now too heavy: H/SA=11.00 3670/320=11.47 with 390/320hp-GT So it can't be that car, unless NHRA let them swap a GTO engine in there LOL. Here's 4 possibilities, but nobody seems able to hunt down the car: 10.18 dick simon 67 fair2ds 390gt320-4v 10.11 dick simon 67 mustang2cv 390gt320-4v 10.49 dick simon 67 fairlane GTA 390gt320-4v 10.25 dick simon 67 Big Ford Ranch Wagon 427mr410-4v |
Re: Project - NHRA Stock and S/S results 61-68
OK....New challenge.
Sox won SS eliminator at the 69 SpringNationals. Can’t find any result for SS/B. or SS/BA. Anybody? |
Re: Project - NHRA Stock and S/S results 61-68
All I have for SS/ is a narrative from Drag News, poor quality in some areas so cant read it all.
SS/B Vanke 10.73 at 111.90 SS/BA Grotheer 10.83 at 117.3 Were they DQ'd later? No idea! SS/Eliminator Sox 10.63 at 114.5 Obviously all 3 brake light runs so as to not set a record! Do you have a sheet that shows the cars/years? I cant read the SS/H car (arthur evans). |
Re: Project - NHRA Stock and S/S results 61-68
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I did find this, however.... Also....can find ZERO reference to ‘G Gurch’ - World Champ Stock Elim’ Is the name the correct spelling? |
Re: Project - NHRA Stock and S/S results 61-68
Nice find, picture of Simon's 67 Fairlane ragtop in A/SA.
Best likely fit is 1968 A/SA=8.00 1967 Fairlane ragtop, 427/425-8v factored at 463hp (they vary from about 460-463hp back-calculating the factoring) comes out at W/P=8.01. Perfect fit to class, but so was the 427/410-4v Fairlane/Comet 2door post, and ran the same class A/SA=8.00. And that 4v combo, left unfactored at 410hp, was stronger - lots of wins. But the flat-hood 427-8v was factored too high. The Glass hood 427-8v combo was only factored at 472hp. The cold air was worth more than 472-463=9 hp or even 472-460=12 hp. The FLAT-hood FACTORED 427-8v wasnt a very competitive combo- I'm not sure if I found any national wins with it. Factored too high at least back then. |
Re: Project - NHRA Stock and S/S results 61-68
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At the moment, that's all I know about the car & driver. |
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DC - You wanted this.
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Don Ringer is listed as winning D/D, with Pontiac power. So, aprox what cube engine would that require ? Ya'll know anything about the car or driver ? D/SA is Ray McClelland. Assume that was with his '62 Cat. I/SA was John Thropp. Assume that would have been with his familiar '57 Pontiac. H/SA was Jack Briner. I just ran across that name today. He ran a '65 2+2 Pontiac, named "Movin On". |
Re: Project - NHRA Stock and S/S results 61-68
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DC - Someone kindly sent me this. George Gurch...DQ’d according to the results list.
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Re: Project - NHRA Stock and S/S results 61-69
1969 now published. Thank you both for your help.
https://skunkwerkssuperstock.wordpress.com/1969-2/ |
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Based on the D/D class my guess would be he was running a dragster. Stan |
Re: Project - NHRA Stock and S/S results 61-68
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What I'm wanting to know is what size the Pontiac engine was, in that car. By running a D, as compared to an A, B, or C, I'd assume the car either had a small cube engine, OR it was heavier than most higher classed dragsters. I think Pontiac had a 287, 317, 326, & 347, that could have been used. Or it could have been a 350 or larger engine, in a heavier dragster, I suppose. Could have even been a "Trophy 4", I suppose. Don't have a clue. And, I know it is a long shot, but hoping somebody might know this car & maybe even have pics. Don't know without asking. |
Re: Project - NHRA Stock and S/S results 61-69
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If I read it right, you said a Ben Wolf '69 GTO won the B/SA class at a race. I assume you just made that up & never actually saw in print what he was driving. Also, if I read the right thing, it says that both winner & RU in B/SA were DQ'd. I'll read it again. I think it was @ Indy '69, right ? " B/SA Ben Wolf 69 Pontiac GTO Ram Air IV 400cui/370hp 4V " Don't recall seeing any old pics of a '69 GTO running in that high a class. I just looked thru my files of '69 GTO pics. I don't even see one that ran C/SA, much less B/SA. Most were either D or E. I assume that back then, the RA3 ran E & the RA4 ran D. In the Spring Nats class winners lists, it shows a Ben Wolf B/SA '61 Pontiac, which ran a 12.20. So, were BOTH the '69 GTO AND the '61 Pontiac running B/SA, in '69 ? :confused: Maybe, it was a misprint & the car was actually the Wolf & McClelland '62 Pontiac. I have pics of it with D/SA & C/SA on the window. Maybe for '69, certain 421SD models could run B/SA ? :confused: Might have been a lighter RA2 Bird. That sounds likely. Since the RA4 was factory rated lower in a Bird than the RA4 in a Goat, AND since the '69 Bird is lighter than the Goat, a RA4 Bird also sounds very likely. Pic 4 shows Phil Monteith's '69 RA4 Bird. He bought it new, & it ran B/SA. I vote for a Bird, NOT a Goat. "...Either way it seems that B/SA=8.50 Mystery Ben Wolf car of Spring 69 was either a: 69 GTO RA4 69 Bird RA4 68 Bird RA2 Nothing else seems to fit up that high..." I just used an online calculator. Th RA4 engine would have had to have been factored up to at least 389hp in order to get the 3500lb '69 GTO into B-Stock. Then it would have been real heavy for the class. I just noticed that the hp factor has been only 365hp for nearly 20 years. That's 1hp lower than the RA3 engine. But, I suppose the RA4 heads are just too rare & expensive for most, as well as a clean '69 GTO body. The Indy class winners list shows that Jack Briner won H/SA. Under the caption of the class final pic, you said the other car won. So, was the big Pontiac DQ'd ? :confused: " Ed Merkle’s H/SA winning Fairlane convertible. (1062) " The more I read, the more confused I am. :o The list which appears to have been made up, for the '69 Nats(I assume that's Indy), don't jive with the posted list which I assume was published in the ND. So, do you have info telling who was awarded the class wins, after the DQ's were noted, or ? " 69 NATIONALS Top Stock Class Winners " "...D/SA – B Bunker – Pontiac GTO – 12.45 @ 110.97..." Anyhow, the 1st list shows that a GTO won the D/SA class, with B Bunker driving. But, the official looking list shows that Ray McClelland won D/SA. So, if both these lists are from the '69 Nats @ Indy, which list is correct ? :confused: Can't copy & paste the ND list, but it clearly says it's a list from the '69 NHRA Nationals, & it clearly shows that Ray McClelland won D/SA. So, who really won the class @ Indy '69 ? :confused: Trying to go back thru those lists & get it all straight. On second look, that part about the B/SA '69 GTO was right at the bottom of the Spring Nats list, with very little space between it & the heading for the Indy info. But, that don't change the fact that I don't think a '69 GTO won B/SA, at any '69 nat event. Hey, I could be wrong. It HAS happened. :D |
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I have never heard anyone reference a dragster as a car before. Does anyone have a rule book from '69? My guess would be he was running either a 4 or 6 cylinder engine. Stan |
Re: Project - NHRA Stock and S/S results 61-68
" I have never heard anyone reference a dragster as a car before..."
I can't believe you posted that, even if you were thinking it ! :eek: " Dragster (car) From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia An early example, a 1958 Fuel rail, on display at the California Automobile Museum A dragster is a specialized competition automobile used in drag racing... Woody Gilmore (following the mid-engined Funny Car he built for Doug Thorley) and Pat Foster developed a rear-engined fuel dragster, which was unveiled in December.[8] Driven by Foster, the Gilmore car ran just once, getting up on its single rear wheelie bar and breaking in two at around 220 mph (350 km/h), at Lions Drag Strip.[9] Gilmore and Foster built a similar car, Pawnbroker, for Dwane Ong, incorporating the lessons of the previous car; it debuted in 1970, and proved considerably better.[10] In August, Ong won the 1970 AHRA Nationals in the car.[11] Pawnbroker won the American Hot Rod Association Summernats in Long Island, New York, the first national event win for a rear-engined car, with a pass of 6.83 at 219 mph (352 km/h).[12] "Big Daddy" Don Garlits examined the car and was so impressed with the forward view, he could not understand why everyone did not drive one--and why it did not work.[13] Around the same time, Bernie Schacker's rear-engined car, the first with a rear wing, was the first to run in the sixes, with a 6.98 at 192.70 mph (310.12 km/h), at New York National Speedway's Spring Nationals (an event sanctioned by none of the national bodies).[14] In April 1970, Mark Williams' car, built for Mike Dollins and Dan Widner (at a cost of only US$2,111.16), first appeared; its 235 in (6,000 mm) wheelbase was significantly longer than the 180 in (4,600 mm) usual for fuellers at the time.[15] The car ran well, but required new driving techniques; Dollins and Widner lacked the money to continue racing it, and it was sold to a Colorado team, which switched to a 354 cu in (5,800 cc) hemi (rather than the usual 392 cu in (6,420 cc).[16] Others rear-engined cars included ones built by Art Malone (before working with Garlits on his), the National Speed Products Research carbuilt by Frank Huszar (Race Car Specialties) on a stunning 254 in (6,500 mm) wheelbase; driven by Chuck Tanko, it was overweight, at 1,375 lb (624 kg), and could only achieve 7.20s at 210 mph (340 km/h), never running in competition.[17] On March 8, 1970, at Lions Drag Strip,[18] Garlits was driving Swamp Rat XIII, also called the Wynnscharger, a slingshot rail, when the vehicle suffered a catastrophic failure, and the car broke in half in front of the cockpit.[19] Garlits returned to Pomona with a brand new mid-engined car, Swamp Rat XIV, in 1971.[20] At first, the rodding magazines considered the disadvantages of the new design "obvious". Swamp Rat XIV turned in a pass of 6.80 right off the trailer,[21] and was so successful during 1971, Garlits won two of his next three Top Fuel Eliminator titles (the Winternats and Bakersfield), and was runner-up at Lions, all in the new car..." |
Re: Project - NHRA Stock and S/S results 61-68
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The Dragster is powered by Injected Gas Pontiac 4 cyl (twins).
Stan |
Re: Project - NHRA Stock and S/S results 61-68
and a dragster is not a car!
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" 69 NATIONALS Top Stock Class Winners "
"...D/SA – B Bunker – Pontiac GTO – 12.45 @ 110.97..." Here's that D/SA class winner, driven by Bill Bunker. The story goes that it was sponsored by Colonial Pontiac, in Florida. Has "Colonial Banshee" on the door. The 2nd pic was taken earlier. At that time, it had "Colonial Banshee Project Car", on the door. Had "Cam by Joe Lunati" on the rear deck spoiler. Don't know why. Maybe Joe made a super duper Stocker cam for it. Maybe he was also a partial sponsor. |
Re: Project - NHRA Stock and S/S results 61-68
OLD Skool
Ok, the only info I have is whats on the list of winners I posted, and DC’s tables....which you quoted. So to answer your 1st question - So.......Not ‘made up’ - You’d have to ask DC how he arrived at the ‘likely contenders’. I decided on the B/SA Ben Wolf Pontiac entry after discussions with DC - there were three viable 1969 Pontiacs that met class. If you think the Firebird is a better ‘fit’ - I’ll change the entry - after all, all we have is the Driver, the Brand and the year model. |
Re: Project - NHRA Stock and S/S results 61-68
Old Skool - “In the Spring Nats class winners lists, it shows a Ben Wolf B/SA '61 Pontiac, which ran a 12.20.
So, were BOTH the '69 GTO AND the '61 Pontiac running B/SA, in '69 ? “ DC and I decided it was a misprint as there is no 61 car that met class. Re-Briner - Its just another conflict btwn DCs list and the results list. UNDERSTAND - Until a week ago the only data I had was DCs list - a recent stay in hospital has prevented me from ‘tidying up’ the web page - Believe me, prostatitis does’t leave you feeling much like talking cars! :) |
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Re: Project - NHRA Stock and S/S results 61-68
Don't know what HP. But his options may have been very good. I found that Bill Bunker was a salesman for Colonial Pontiac in Miami.
Stan |
Re: Project - NHRA Stock and S/S results 61-68
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As to which car was more likely raced, if it was indeed a Pontiac, I'd go with one of the Birds. I have LOTS of pics of '69 GTO's. Can't find a single one with B/S or B/SA on it. I can't even find one with C/S or C/SA on it. They were just too heavy(3500lbs)Not saying they didn't run that class, in '69. Just saying I've never seen a pic of one running that high a class. Most have either D or E on 'em. Have one with F on it. But, I have no idea what the NHRA hp factor was, for the GTO engines, in '69. Now, as to WHICH Bird might have been used. Could have been either. I'd have to lean towards the '69, simply because the year of the race was '69, & because lots of Pontiac dealerships raced current year model cars, to help with sales of current year models they had in stock. He may have been offered the car for one or just a few races, because they knew he was a good experienced Pontiac racer. Then again, the car could have been a '68, which was owned by a friend, who wanted him to tune & drive the car some, in order to make it a little quicker. Unless we could talk to someone who knew the situation, or unless we can find a pic of the car with his number or name on it, I suppose there is no way to know, for sure, exactly what he was driving. If I had to guess, I'd go with the RA4 '69 Bird, assuming he was driving a Pontiac. May have been driving a different brand car at that race. Lots of Pontiac guys switch brands. Some drive 2 different brands at the same race. For example: Scott Burton now drives a Ford in Stock & a Pontiac in SS, at some races. "So what motor, what HP was this car?" Until I see a pic of a '69 GTO taken during the '69 season, with either C/S, C/SA, B/S, or B/SA, I'll say that a D/S or D/SA '69 GTO had the RA4 engine. I'll guess that the RA3 engine ran E & the std 350hp engine ran F. But I can't prove it. Don't know the NHRA hp factors for any of these engines, at the time. The only legal weight I've ever seen listed is 3500lbs. I do have a pic of the 1968 "Rocky's Goat", with C/SA on it. But the pics I have of the '69 Rocky's Goat show it with either D/SA or E/SA. It set the E/SA nat record, in '70. Also have a pic of a '69 Judge with F/SA on it. Assuming it had the RA3 engine, & pic was taken in '70. |
Re: Project - NHRA Stock and S/S results 61-68
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The D/D dragster.
Here's another pic, which shows the engines closer up. Words on it say something like "Eight the Hard Way". |
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Just scanned back thru this video again.
Just after the 1:20 point, there is a white '66 GTO named "Catnip". Does anyone here have pics or info on this car ? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPXPhfGw6iY Below is a fuzzy enlarged version of a screen shot somebody made from the video. Does anybody have a better pic ? Or, does somebody here have the equipment & ability to make a larger, clear screen shot off the video ? The top of the car looks like it may be red. Not dark enuff to be black. Anybody know this car or driver ? Found a little more info. It was raced by Sid & Dave Warren, thus had "Warren Bros" on the rear fender. They were sorta connected to Royal Pontiac's racing team, at times, thus the "Royal Pontiac" over the door, & the "GeeTo Tiger" car behind it, in the 2nd pic. Would still like to have better pics & more info on the car's performance. In pic #3, it appears to be in the staging lanes for the C/S class elims. I assume it was @ Indy '66. Don'r know. |
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