Re: Not for Nuthin' But Close!
 

The advertised compression ratio is 10.00:1.

Re: Not for Nuthin' But Close!
 

The combustion chamber design has some hemispherical properties, so more timing didn't seem to do any good. The fuel is 100 octane unleaded Sunoco 260GTX. The only fuel settings I can mess with are power enrichment (only active in closed loop), and injector pulsewidth multiplier vs manifold vacuum. For this reason I decided to run the car in open loop at all times and take control over the amount of fuel going in. With it in closed loop the ecu kept commanding the afr to be richer and richer and I couldn't get it under control. Attached are photos of both the injector pulswidth multiplier and the minimum spark table.

Re: Not for Nuthin' But Close!
 

Ok cool.......what can you adjust in open loop? Can you monitor a/f ratio?

Re: Not for Nuthin' But Close!
 

Yes and No. There is an afr shown in the data log, but it shows that it is the commanded ratio by the ecu. However, when I started to mess with fuel, it did start to show leaner values. The 02 voltage is also shown, and is somewhere around .8 - .9 going down the track.

Re: Not for Nuthin' But Close!
 

Just FYI that Mike Cashman has posted pics of the car in the FB Stock and Super Stock Racing group, assume the pic has Doug and Billy in it. Very cool little ride.

Re: Not for Nuthin' But Close!
 

That's not me next to Billy. That's the guy that was running the staging lanes.

Re: Not for Nuthin' But Close!
 

.8-.9 is what in afr?

Re: Not for Nuthin' But Close!
 

After some research, this is about 12.8-12.9 in terms of afr.

Re: Not for Nuthin' But Close!
 

Thanks Doug, I’m learning!

Re: Not for Nuthin' But Close!
 

Threads like this are always my favorite.

Re: Not for Nuthin' But Close!
 

Doug,
Am I confused? Isn't output voltage like lambda?
.8 = 11.76:1
.9 = 13.23:1


Stan

Re: Not for Nuthin' But Close!
 

It's the voltage on the 02 sensor as reported in the software. .450 is stoic
Target on NA is like .850 wot in PE or power enrichment mode.
A lot of tuners using the HP Tuners logging set up an Analog input from another wide band for a better Air Fuel ratio log.
Older factory ECU's are narrow band 02 sensors. . More modern are wide bands

Re: Not for Nuthin' But Close!
 

From what I understand, this era of gm cars are fitted with "narrowband" o2 sensor, and there is no direct scale from the o2 voltage reading shown by the ecu to either forms of afr. Like mentioned above, .45 volts is "stoich," and when it is around .85, that should be somewhere around 13:1.

Re: Not for Nuthin' But Close!
 

Robin and Doug,
Thank you


Stan

Re: Not for Nuthin' But Close!
 

Re: Not for Nuthin' But Close!
 

Hows the progress coming Billy ?

Re: Not for Nuthin' But Close!
 

Well, I guess that depends on what you consider progress. I'm pretty sure that we are done racing for the year. I've taken the cooling system apart to try and understand it so that I can come up with a way to cool it with some kind of an electric pump. A header is in the works. I have access to a trans with the best final drive ratio and I'll probably take the converter too. I haven't been able to find out much on converters yet but I haven't spent a lot of time looking. I'm sure that certain models will have different stall speeds based on weights and gear ratios. The engine has 120K miles on it and it is blowing a good amount of oil smoke and I'm being "pressured" to re-build or replace it (in my spare time).
I can't say enough how thankful I am for Doug Hoven taking some time to "play" with this project. Without him, I would be totally lost.
It would be awfully nice to see a hard-core Mopar Racer step up (in his spare time) and build a 2.0 Neon just to see how it's done. Same way, junkyard refugee, see what it'll do (the Cavalier will kick it's butt!).
It would also be nice to see someone get some later-model FFFords in the guide so that it could be seen how they would stack up.

Re: Not for Nuthin' But Close!
 

On rebuild, go back to a gm dealer for all of your parts they have best prices and good parts. Gm head gaskets are thinner than aftermarkets. The head responded to more air flow with less valve angle [30*] on a flow bench but never did a back to back on dyno.
But I am sure a good stocker valve job would help. For cooling just take the middle of the thermostat out run a wire to the cooling relay to a toggle switch and you will keep it under 140 all day. I think you could keep this dime rocket build under a nickel. We have a lot of spare parts if you need anything let me know. We have a claim rule that another racer can claim your whole car for 1500. dollars so you have do builds as cheep as possible. Tom

Re: Not for Nuthin' But Close!
 

Now THAT is a rule I would LOVE to see in STOCK Eliminator!!!!! But if that ever came to be, my life expectancy would be measured in minutes.

Re: Not for Nuthin' But Close!
 

More stuff. Did you know that cavilers had three different spring packages for ride and handling. I think you could keep your weak springs in the front but go with heavier in the rear or stack 1/2 washers under the rear rear strut mounts and adding spring rubbers too, keeping more to the front and giving the car some front rake. Also make sure your rear struts are not leaking and are hard to compress. If you are doing stuff too the trans, welding the spiders may be a option, but you will have to get the front alignment right so it rolls easy. More to come. Tom

Re: Not for Nuthin' But Close!
 

With the wheel/tire combo that's on the car it definitely has a forward rake. I've had to raise the front slightly to get to the 3" minimum ground clearance.

A million years ago, I played with "welding spiders" in a FWD car. That won't happen again.

Re: Not for Nuthin' But Close!
 

Times 2 !

Re: Not for Nuthin' But Close!
 

They do make LSD for these to. That would ruin the nickel part. We use spring rubbers on the dirt to make the car turn. Tom

Re: Not for Nuthin' But Close!
 

anybody like to help me tune my 2005 GTP cone air filter and high flow cat. i have a hp tuner with O2 hook up.

Re: Not for Nuthin' But Close!
 

Would be interested to hear about these as I was toying with doing this on the Escort. Is it the torque steer or something else. I did find an lsd for it though.

Re: Not for Nuthin' But Close!
 

Aren't welded spider gears illegal? I wouldn't want to be on either end of that law suit. (The one that could ensue when an accident occurs because a weld or gear broke.)

Re: Not for Nuthin' But Close!
 

First of all and probably the most important, it will be VERY difficult to steer the car and I mean just driving it around the pits. It will slow you down and not just a little bit. If you break your welded spiders, you had better hope that you do it on the line otherwise you WILL be going for a "ride".

Re: Not for Nuthin' But Close!
 

Yup. Under General Regulations 2:11 Rear End,Welded spider gear rear ends prohibited in all classes.

Re: Not for Nuthin' But Close!
 

They do it a lot in the fwd Dirt cars, never ever hear of anybody breaking one. Seen a bunch blow the the trans apart from the spiders spinning and cutting the pin in half. For setup you run less air from left to right for stager to go around corners and with the gears harder than the shaft it eats it up. For some of the rwd classes they have to run a mini spool with just the pin making it solid. If you work on the PS a little it does not take away any hp. 99 % of the all the dirt cars and nascar run PS. Its a old wise tail now days. How many time do you hear that somebody lost there PS and fell back out of contention, back in the day when nobody had it took a man to drive 500 miles. Tom

Re: Not for Nuthin' But Close!
 

Tom, I know that dirt tracks can get really "sticky" but, as I'm sure that you know, it's nothing like a "glued concrete" starting line. And there's not much need for P/S on a drag strip. Taking off the P/S pump and laying it aside was worth .08.

Re: Not for Nuthin' But Close!
 

I see they have made the P/S more efficient. :D In '64 it was worth .1 on my brothers '62 Olds.

Stan

Re: Not for Nuthin' But Close!
 

Gm systems run a lot of pressure. When running a gm pump with a Mustang II rack you need to drop the pressure or you will blow the seals out of it. Borgesen makes a simple kit for this. Not to be confused with the flow reducers with a smaller hole in them. Gm also has a cold climate PS Fluid. I did not think it would slow the cars that much but your testing shows otherwise. Saturns have electric PS and have plate over pump hole, bolts rite on. I am told the VUE cams made more torque but they do not have the drive for PS. I have one if you want to try it. Tom

Re: Not for Nuthin' But Close!
 

Just FYI, due to this post, I have been convinced to build myself a dime rocket.. So it wasn’t for “Nuthin”.. Just letting you know!

Re: Not for Nuthin' But Close!
 

Jake, you're making me cry in my tequila....Thank You!

Re: Not for Nuthin' But Close!
 

Great... Show us the details and progression, here.

Re: Not for Nuthin' But Close!
 

It's more of a when than a if you break a welded spider.

Re: Not for Nuthin' But Close!
 

For what it's worth........you can find a wealth of knowledge on the 2.0 Neons at some of the small paved oval tracks that run a fwd class. They were all the rage several years ago when I was helping a friend get back and forth to the track until the judge saw fit to reinstate his drivers license.

Re: Not for Nuthin' But Close!
 

Oh, no!! Another Billy-ite!! Or is that a Nees-or-ite?!? . . . and right here at Christmas!

Re: Not for Nuthin' But Close!
 

Dwight, poke fun if you want but I haven't had this much fun since I was a teen and discovered girls!
I also haven't learned so much, so easy, since about the same time.
Doug and I went racing yesterday. I'll report back later.

Re: Not for Nuthin' But Close!
 

We went to Cecil again yesterday. It was pretty foggy until about Noon and then the sun came out and it warmed up to a bit over 60* but it was still a bit on the damp side. I've been given my "walking papers" and am no longer the driver. The kid has taken over in that capacity too.
He made 6 runs. The first couple of runs were addressing some "issues" that we were having with the trans slipping into the gears when all of the torque management nannys were turned off. To begin with, he turned the torque management back on but has it removing only half of the timing that it was and he raised the line pressure a bit. And if I'm explaining any of this wrong, I'm sure that he'll be posting on here eventually.
First pass, with the engine pretty warm and just seeing how the shifts respond to the changes was a 15.28/88.16
Second pass, with the engine cooled down BUT with a "coming-and-going" gusty tail wind, 15.226/89.49.
Third pass, I removed a 22" long pipe that I put on the exhaust pipe when I cut the cat. converter off and it seemed to like that, 15.177/89.77.
Fourth pass, Doug took out a bit more fuel, 15.158/89.57.
Fifth pass, took out a bit more fuel, 15.130/89.43.
Last pass, we charged the battery and got the car really cooled down. Doug also took out some more fuel and for the last pass of the year, 15.085/ 89.88!
Over a half a second under with a totally stock, junk car! Of course it was with the help of HP Tuners and a 17 year old punk but hey.

Thanks for all of the support of the racers looking in here on ClassRacer!
I'm pretty sure that Doug will be looking in just in case there are any questions asked that I can't answer.

So my X-mas wish for this year is to see a few of these cars getting built. Of course you'll have to post the builds on here. I'd ALSO like to see somebody like Chris Hill drag home a JYD Neon and wring it out. Oh and will somebody get NHRA to put a 2000s FFFord Fiesta in the guide? Then there could be a 3-way "Junkyard Shootout"!


Thanks all!