Re: U/SA 302 ffffford build
 

I only have .382/.398 for lift and 30* is better for flow at low lifts. If i had a lot of lift then id use a higher angle like 60*. The 45* is the factory number and works like factory ?middle of the road?, same as factory cams etc.

Of course i know squat compared to any of the builders on here so maybe they will chime in??

Re: U/SA 302 ffffford build
 

Are you using a dwell style camshaft ? If so you might want to flow test your different valve and seat angles.

Re: U/SA 302 ffffford build
 

gb, Suggestion here>
You've got the right cam and carb there. This is an easy combo.
Don't try to re-invent the wheel.
I don't see a flow bench in the the pics, so, in absence of one , you might want to use a 30, 45 sealing angle, 60, 70 and so on,...whatever fits ;-)

Re: U/SA 302 ffffford build
 

Thanks mark, i was going according to someone else who ran the combo,(very successfully , lol) after grinding a couple practice seats on a garbage head im concerned about the valve drop. 30* was what someone else ran but that was after replacing all the seats. Dont think im there yet, 16 seats for a bit more power?

Im going back out and make a decision.

Re: U/SA 302 ffffford build
 

I have two seats at 30* and im not a fan. So, either get the 45 back or ill have to replace the seats.
I did two others at my regular 15/30/45 seat/60 throat. I thought I had a 75 but i cant find it. Regardless, i like it better and if i lose a bit of power, im ok with that.

I can see why "stock" heads can cost so much! Course if i was better it would be quicker but ive aready got about 17hrs into them with cleaning, guides, porting, (just kidding) lol! Still have to do the valve job and adjust stem height and installed height.. lots of hours left.
I also got one side of the heat crossover in the intake plugged and need to do the other side, little by little, lol.
And thanks to those who pm'd me!!

Re: U/SA 302 ffffford build
 

Earlier tonight, only 11:30 pm, lol.

I didn't like how low the 30* seat was so I tried to save it and did! So I got all intakes and exh valves ground and the valve job done.
15/30/45seat/60throat

After that was done I used lite springs to check stem height. Got them all within .012 by trimming the tip. Now I have to work on the installed height.

Of course nothing is easy, the LED light on my valve grinder went bad and it's continually flashing, try to see where the contact is with that! LOL!

After the heads were cleaned I see this mess in one chamber, not sure if someone chattered a stone or something let go, who knows but how do I fix it or can I fix it since you can't do anything in the chamber?


Still moving forward, so that's good.

Re: U/SA 302 ffffford build
 

If I might interject here, for those doing their own valve jobs..Stock valve angle is required in Stock , + or - ! degree.

Re: U/SA 302 ffffford build
 

What angle are you referring to ?

Re: U/SA 302 ffffford build
 

Yeah Mark, it ain't that way anymore. Any valve angle, any number of angles but no further down than the valve pocket and must hold NHRA's runner volumes.
OH YEAH, it has to LOOK "Stock". ;-)

Well ya know? I just re-read the rule book any YOU are correct!
You are however allowed to CNC port the intake/exhaust runners and the combustion chambers! If you're running a FS car. Now that hardly seems "fair"!

Re: U/SA 302 ffffford build
 

4th sentence says “must retain stock diameter and angle + - 1*”. But the 4th sentence from the bottom says “any valve job accepted”?

Well i did 4 angles (cant find my 75* ) 15 in the chamber, 30 below that, 45 seat and 60* in the throat. Im pulling my hair out because the flash and casting crap as well as the lip left from the 15 cut is killing flow but i cant legally remove it. Stock casting SUCK!! Lol!
So much easier to make power when you blend, lol.

Re: U/SA 302 ffffford build
 

You can use a radiused cutter. That's not illegal.

Re: U/SA 302 ffffford build
 

Glenn, I am referring to the angle that is built into the valve.

Always fun to go into a teardown with a Pontiac and watch them pick up the 45 deg. angle gauge and place it on your intake valve. ;-)

Re: U/SA 302 ffffford build
 

My Citation HO 2.8 came stock with 5 angles..That made tech nuts, for sure, at that time
;-)

Re: U/SA 302 ffffford build
 

Quite confusing but I believe it's any valve angle allowed.

Re: U/SA 302 ffffford build
 

Glenn, I'm thinking the same way that you are (I guess that I can throw away a set of Aardvark heads). The online rules specifically says "VALVES must retain original valve angle +/- 1*. It does however say ANY valve job is legal which I will Assume (NHRA likes to keep us Assuming) goes to seat angles.

I think that I'll start a thread in the tech section. This needs to be discussed.

Re: U/SA 302 ffffford build
 

JMO the valve angle +or- they're talking about is the angle of the valve guide and any valve job means any valve job. Brian Seaberg 627

Re: U/SA 302 ffffford build
 

Here's a new interpretation, but I don't think so, Brian.
First of all, how would they check the guide angle?
Have you ever been through a tear down where they actually gauge the valve head sealing angle built into the valve? I have been..Many times, and that used to be what that phrase meant.
Today? Who knows?

Re: U/SA 302 ffffford build
 

Well Ive been through teardown 3x at Indy and pulled valves if that means anything..

Re: U/SA 302 ffffford build
 

And then? Did they check the sealing face angle of the valve...any one of those three times

Re: U/SA 302 ffffford build
 

Mark, no disrespect intended, please read the rulebook, it says any valve job allowed so they don't check valve angles that I know of..my apologies for taking over this thead, I'd much rather talk about the 79 mustang build..

Re: U/SA 302 ffffford build
 

Again, no disrespect, but the valve job refers to the angles and work done to the seat in the head. At least it used to ....

But I will be glad to carry this further in Billy's tech thread, from here on out.
Thanks

Re: U/SA 302 ffffford build
 

Stock valve angle in a small block Ford is 20 degree VALVE angle - relative to the deck/cylinder head surface. ANY valve and seat angle(s) for a valve job are permitted.

Re: U/SA 302 ffffford build
 

I'll reply in Billy's tech thread.

Re: U/SA 302 ffffford build
 

Just got in from the garage and wow, I kicked over a hornets nest! All good though, it'll be clarity for the next guy with a seat cutter and rules comprehension phobia!

gotta go, but today I finished the heads, put light springs on for break in and no valve seals. When it's broke in and I'm putting the big springs in, I'll put some seals on the intakes as well.

Re: U/SA 302 ffffford build
 

Don't get carried away with your valve spring pressures!

Re: U/SA 302 ffffford build
 

But Billy, im going to scream this to 5000, i need big pressure! 😂😂

I was already told im way too high, ill adjust to what was recommended.

Re: U/SA 302 ffffford build
 

Since a lot of the talk of valvejobs and what I was doing went on the other thread, I thought I better recap here.

So, after all the drama with spring pressure..I got a set of comp 926's and with +.050 locks and the moly retainers and then some .030 shims I forgot I had, I got it!!

Break in pressure is 50 on the seat and 150 over the nose on all + or - 5#
Running pressure will be 110-120 on the seat and 265-270 over the nose
Once that was done i rechecked all the stem heights and found a couple too tall so i trimmed them about .020 on the 4-5 i had to adjust.

Next up was a way to check the springs on the head. I cant find my checker (of course) so i made one that fits the rocker arm and a 1/4" drive torque wrench. By taking the springs on and off to confirm, i found 50" is equal to 50# on the spring. 90" is 90# etc.
Now i can confirm spring pressure on the car.

Another benefit to the tool is, i bolted the rocker arms down, then used the tool to compress the springs .400 or so and after using red marker on the tips i was able to (crudely) approximate where the rocker and spring contact. Almost all are a thin line on the stem but some are a little towards the outside which means the rocker arm is too high (or you have too long of a pushrod)
Obviously its not perfect, might of pulled too far or not far enough which would affect where it marks but generally it was pretty good.

Another good thing was when I pulled off the intake, I found that I had ground out the oil return holes and covered them with screen and epoxy...this was just an engine to move the car around the shop but apparently I took my time with it? Lol!

More good news was finding the .030 shims packed away. I also just found some hardened pushrods (for guide plates) and a HD oil pump drive shaft for a 302, new, still in the box.

Last pic is the complete intake and carb ready to install.

Bad news (there always is) I dug out some head gaskets and...they don't look right/not windsor gaskets?? I had to order some.
Since I have to wait until tomorrow anyway (NOTHING IS IN STOCK HERE!), might as well install cam and lifters and put the cover on...wait..what's up with these gaskets??,,,,chev?? WHY DO I HAVE CHEV GASKET SETS???? Then I remembered the guy across the road from me in NB ran chev open wheel stock cars and I did some heads for him and some other guys, apparently the boxes of spare gaskets are sbc/460 stuff with a bunch of sbf mixed in. This happens when you are posted every 3-4 years in the army, lol!! Movers just box it all up together.

Also bad, I have 4 sets of headers, 3 of which are for fox body mustangs with 302's...should be good right? WRONG! Fought with the long tubes and pulled the starter and still couldn't get them to fit before I realized, a lot of the longer tube headers only fit manuals and not auto's...sigh...nothing is easy. So, I painted my old trashed ones and will be reinstalling them. (the black ones in the picture to the right)

Re: U/SA 302 ffffford build
 

Has your build right on the back.

Re: U/SA 302 ffffford build
 

According to Billy it's fffffford. LOL!
Cool picture, love 50's Fords!

Edit: forgot to say, I rec'd this in the mail today;


Your NHRA Competition License has been processed. You may print the attached PDF Temporary Competition License as proof of current NHRA License & NHRA Membership until your permanent card is received in the mail. If your card is not received within 60-days please notify your division office.

My number is 103

So close to being a "real" racer, lol!!

Re: U/SA 302 ffffford build
 

I?m very paranoid about wiping a lobe so everything was set, barely rolled over and ran for 35 minute?s between 2200-2500 with shots to 3000.
No leaks, everything seems good. Now to let it cool, retorque the heads and install the big springs?. Closer.

Re: U/SA 302 ffffford build
 

I might have to car the car "a comedy of errors"

To start off with, as I back the car out of the bus, I see my toolbox slid back and rubbed of a spot on the front bumper the size of my hand...glad I painted it with tremclad and didn't pay a painter $10,000 to make it pretty!!

Fri night, first pass, leave it in drive for it's first pass since 1997. Do the burn out and see one tire spinning, then the other kicks in...ohh yeah, I have a traction loc not a spool in this rearend! Whatever. Go to stage and anything over 15-1800 and my 3000 stall converter pushes me through the lights....hmmm...whatever.
Launch at 1500 and it gets to 4000 and shifts....ok then, pull the shifter back into 2nd and hold it to 4800....4900...5000...shift but man it didn't seem to want to go over 5000. Real struggling like too much timing. First pass, a stunning 16.66@77.45mph. Wow, that's sucks. Pull the shifter and nothing?? Idle back to the pit and find the shifter dogs are gummed up with crap and after spraying brake clean on them, working good again.

Timing is..60* when I rev it??? That's weird too. Pull it back to 38-40 and make a second pass.

Seems hot to only go from pit to staging lane but whatever. Make a pass and run a 16.04@83.38mph and it's up to 200!! Apparently my fuse for the water pump blew. Got towed back to the pit and find the electric pump drive motor is blowing fuses without the belt even on. (I think I might of had the belt too tight?) Got a pump from Bruce Riley parked next to me and all is good...wait...my fan is blowing it's fuse too? I reach in and the electric fan spins easily, but I sliced my finger on something and now there's blood all over the fender.

I have a 40amp circuit breaker so I put that in and the fan runs 8 seconds and then trips....great....

Saturday is rained out so I check the timing..it's at 50* again??? I thinking maybe my timing light is broke? Do some more adjusting but it just doesn't sound right. Pull the distributor and see the pick up is touching the reluctor at the top?? Turns out, the little plastic push thing that holds the weights on has disintigrated and let one weight fly off and bend the breaker plate, which bent it, causing the pickup to tilt and get hit by the reluctor as it passes. You can't make this crap up, lol!! Pull the distributor all apart and flatten the plate out, reassemble with only one weight. Set total timing to 35*. Also saw a bit of brake fluid leaking from the new line lock, apparently the bottom plug was seeping, took 3/4 of a turn to tighten.

Sunday;
Scale the car and I'm 2993. So I'm 117# light for U (3110) and 30# heavy for T (2963)

It's running better, do my one wheel then the other wheel burnout, stage at 1500 and....start off in second gear because the shifter never put it in to first even though I pulled it 3-4 times as I staged. Lovely, a sluggish 16.29 at 85.22 at least the mph is slowly climbing, lol.
Second pass, burnout then stop and physically watch the shifter stick it in first. Good.
Same goofy looking burnout procedure which I'm sure everyone was laughing, but anyway, stage at 1500 and launch (.043 light..like that matters at this point, lol) and a clean sounding but still slow 15.54@86.54mph. On the return road...no shifter again!! I can't watch it as I drive so as I'm moving the shifter I push the cable end and...go right into reverse! That stopped it in a hurry from about 20mph! Finally got it working and went back to the pit.

At this point it's obvious I can't get within 7 tenths of the index and pull out of S/SS and stay in sportsman.

First round sportsman, I'm dialed 15.55 against a fwd buick street car at 16 something. (At least I get to pretend I'm a fast car as he leaves first and I come after him, lol) As he was a friend I told him I was going to run it out the back door to get data. He got me on the light .055 to my .080 as I had no idea where to leave. Regardless,I ran a "clean" 15.65@85.42 in the afternoon heat.



So, what did I learn from my experience and the wisdom of the others there?
1) need a new converter
2) New shifter
3) New distributor
4) instead of getting a spool, etc for the 9", I'm pulling it and going 8.8, just need, well, everything! Including new rims for the slicks.
5) my 29.5x9 slicks on steel rims are WAY to heavy/large and slow and I'll get some more fitting to a v8 with no power.
6) new fan for the rad
7) found a small leak in the tranny pan so that will have to be welded up.
8) Seperate switches for the fan/pump

There's more but that's enough for now.

Overall it was what I expected it to be, a test day. The learning was great and to listen to some of the legends speak in the evenings was priceless!!

Time to drain the bank account again! (never spent so much to go so slow!, LOL!!)

Re: U/SA 302 ffffford build
 

Hey, what's up with that block pic and # 8?
What # pistons are in that engine?
What rear gear ?
What 60' ?

Re: U/SA 302 ffffford build
 

When you get the distributor figured out put 30-32 total timing in it. That's all those 302's like.




Bret Velde
2003 I/SA

Re: U/SA 302 ffffford build
 

Hi Mark, pistons are factory 302 cast pistons.
Rear gear is 4.86 in a 9?.
60? is too embarrassing to admit (2.2 I think)

Edit: the block pic on the other page? When i pulled the intake and heads, i was pleasantly surprised to see at some point i ground down the oil return holes and epoxied screen over the holes.

Re: U/SA 302 ffffford build
 

I just ordered a new ford distributor today. I’ll set it up to be all in by 3000 and total will be 32 or whatever it likes. ( it does NOT like 60*)

Re: U/SA 302 ffffford build
 

if your 9 inch is 28 spline I have a spool that you can have. U pay shipping.
We back to backed 8.8 to 9 inch. 8.8 no faster.
With that cam use locked out dist. and 35 deg total.

Re: U/SA 302 ffffford build
 

Thanks (again) Mike! Hopefully today my new distributor will arrive. Also have a dual fan set up and a shifter coming.

(You spent How much to go 16 seconds?? Lol!!)

Re: U/SA 302 ffffford build
 

Ok, time for an update.
Got the new distributor (stock from car quest) and dropped it in, engine runs much cleaner. Not done with it, just now I know I have a new distributor to work with.

Shifter..since my ancient b&m shifter was acting up. instead of rebuilding it, I followed Rory's advice and got a stock mustang shifter, notched it for a reverse pattern valve body and then ordered a reverse pattern valve body from Broader Performance. I added in the shipping notes some..shall we say..."shipping instructions" and ended with "God bless Texas" Shortly thereafter I got an email notice saying they were refunding $90US for shipping! Total, even with customs/exice/duty/ups/weather/placement of the moon...it was still less than half of buying it here locally!

Replaced the modified clutch switch I used as a neutral switch with a stock neutral switch.

I contacted Dave Turner in Ontario who sold me the correct converter for my combo, he got from Mike Graham (leaving tomorrow to visit kid in Ontario and pick it up...no I haven't told the wife yet, she still thinks it's just a random vacation we need to take right now, lol)

Installed the adjustable rear upper control arms.

Replaced the stock 42 year old electric 4 cyl fairmont fan that was blowing fuses with a dual fan unit from a newer pontiac G6.

Replaced the fan and pump motor wiring from 14G to 12G.

Pulled driveshaft and rear centre section from the 9" and found the 4.86's in it are WORN OUT! Like, worn so bad the teeth are wavy and the casting that holds the pinion bearing has fine cut marks from the ring! Soooo, have to order new gears.

Got a mini spool coming from Mike Graham (thanks again Mike!) to replace the worn out traction/loc that's in it now.

I'm pushing to hit the two national opens coming up in August, we'll see how that goes as the wife just found property she wants to buy in New Brunswick. (she's into off roading and mud trucks as opposed to my drag racing, lol)

More to come, but life gets in the way. Like dropping everything to replace the rad in the 86 mustang as it's the car we take to the drive in, so in her words, "THAT HAS PRIORITY", lol!

Re: U/SA 302 ffffford build
 

I think you and your car are becoming one. It gave you a shopping list and a to do list. Race cars only want three things; Time, Money, and Attention. Good luck all of us have been there. It took me almost two years to get the Cuda competitive. Good luck and keep going!

Re: U/SA 302 ffffford build
 

Thanks for the encouragement Larry, on the road right now heading for Ontario to pick up the converter?. Oh yeah, and to visit the kid😂😂😂