Re: '66 Dodge D-Dart at Mecum auction
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Check this out http://www.cometeastcarclub.org/Comet_HIPO_65.html |
Re: '66 Dodge D-Dart at Mecum auction
Alan,
Nice Comet. Putting together some detailed specs. for the D-Dart. Will post later. As for the 7 1/4" 1965 rears. Gear ratio's 2.76....2.93....3.23.... 3.55....3.91... for the Hotchkiss Drive. Not sure if anyone made steeper gears...But, the 1965 Cuda "Goldfish" of the Hamilton Motors "Golden Commando's" ran In F/Stock in 1965 (12.50 - 13.99 wt/hp break). Won the F/S class at the 65' NHRA Nationals. And, held the F/S record with a 13.44 @ 103.68. Ran 4.89 gears, in an 8 3/4" Sure-Grip/Posi. They went AHRA in 66'. Paul |
Re: '66 Dodge D-Dart at Mecum auction
Alan,
The D-Dart engines were assembled at Chrysler Industrial. Though the Camcraft camshaft is stated as a .495/.505 lift, in actuality it has a lift of .504 Intake / .515 Exhaust.... According to NHRA technical, the intake and exhaust valves on both the 66' D-Dart and standard 273/235HP Commando engines are the same size. (1.78 intake) and (1.50 exhaust)...The cylinder head chambers were measured at 57.3cc... Currently (5) different casting # heads can be utilized, all with the same valve size, #2455315,,#2658920,,#2843675,,#3671585,,#4323302.. The intake port sizes equal 1.70 sq. inch and the exhaust port 1.25 sq. inch. Paul |
Re: '66 Dodge D-Dart at Mecum auction
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Re: '66 Dodge D-Dart at Mecum auction
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Paul, According to an old parts casting book that I have, that Galen put out, the 2658920 cylinder head castings for 1966 had 1.87" intake valves --- P/N 2536176. In 1967, the same castings had 1.78's --- P/N 2806213. The cars were built on April 17th. The engine ID boss on Politician engine is stamped either R-273- 4-27 or it might be B-273- 4-27. The one on the Mecum car (my old car) was stamped R-273- 4-26 or B-273- 4-26. The bottom portion of the B or R is missing. If the 4-26 and 4-27 are the dates the engines were built. Where, when and who installed them? Here's a picture that I got from the D/Dart web site moderator. It's of the Porach D/Dart when they first got it. I had asked them about the headers, hurst shifter and possibly a Sun tach being in the trunk at the time of delivery. It's definately an Inland shifter. You can caption it as you want. |
Re: '66 Dodge D-Dart at Mecum auction
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Re: '66 Dodge D-Dart at Mecum auction
I'm curious as to whether a 1.87" intake valve would clear the cylinder wall on a (small-bore) 273 without relieving some of the material from the cylinder wall.
Might that be a factor? |
Re: '66 Dodge D-Dart at Mecum auction
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Here is a picture of the copy of the letter that NHRA sent out on the 8 3/4 rear. The actual reason that the factory started putting the 8 3/4 in the 65s is that owners of the 4 speed cars were destroying the 7 1/4 rears. Ma Mopar got tired of replacing the weaker rear under warrenty. Not all the 4 barrel 273 cars got the 8 3/4, only the 4 speed cars.
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Re: '66 Dodge D-Dart at Mecum auction
Alan,
What you said does make sense. 8 3/4' for 4-speeds, and the 7 1/4" for automatics in 65'. I would imagine many of 65' 273 Commando 4-speed Darts and Cuda's in early 65' never drove home from the drag-strip. Got brought home via a chain. I will post some valve clearance info. You have to check the photo's of the cylinder head (valves and combustion chamber) in the Ted Spehar Dart, on the D-Dart site. Those intake valves are not 1.87". They are definitely 1.78. On the bottom side of the head, a "2" is stamped within the indentation. Not sure if that indicated anything special. On the engines, again put together at Chrysler Marine & Industrial. Paul |
Re: '66 Dodge D-Dart at Mecum auction
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Re: '66 Dodge D-Dart at Mecum auction
Would ALL of the '66 Valiants, Darts, and 'Cudas w/the 273/235, 4sp combos have had the 8&3/4" rear, or did it have to still be ordered? My friend's 235hp, 4sp '66 Valiant did have it, w/3.9 ratio...WJ
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Re: '66 Dodge D-Dart at Mecum auction
W J,
You would think all of the 4-speeds in 66' came equipped with the 8 3/4" posi, when equipped with a 273/235HP Commando engine. Don't think the 273 2-barrel, 4-speed cars came with the 8 3/4" posi as standard. Probably an option. Also, Chrysler did offer these cars with an optional "Towing Package". Not sure what that included. Paul |
Re: '66 Dodge D-Dart at Mecum auction
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Re: '66 Dodge D-Dart at Mecum auction
Bill,
On valve clearance. The valves were are angled at 18 degrees, entering the cylinder. As for clearance, I don't have the complete technical info guide. But, when we put 340 exhaust valves (1.60 diameter) in one of our 273's heads, we had to slightly fly-cut the the top edge of the cylinder wall to allow for clearance (expansion). And thats with .040 over Chrysler 10.5 factory pistons........... As for D-Dart valve spring info. The Racer Brown #VR-18X were rated at 313lbs. closed @1.05"...150lbs. open @1.55". Free length of the spring was 2.00". The springs were outer only, no damper. Suprisingly, cannot find valve seal info. Doesn't look like a Perfect Circle teflon seal was used, may actually be a poly-acrylic standard umbrella. Oh, that Porach Dodge photo. Is that shifter Dr. Ball-Peen is holding, is that after he just drag-raced the car. Looks like he's looking for a garbage can, as a nice place to store that beautifully made mechanical device. Paul |
Re: '66 Dodge D-Dart at Mecum auction
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I had a 1964 Valiant with a 225 and a 4 speed with the 7 1/4. I raced it in stock class and E/mp (cam and 4bbl) at ATCO......broke 5 rear ends in one year...it was truly worthless! JimR |
Re: '66 Dodge D-Dart at Mecum auction
Jim R,
Those rear-end units are not worthless. They make a very nice chain-base anchor in the backyard, when tieing up a dog. I forgot to add (2) other 1966 cars that competed in D/S in 1966. 1966 Dodge Charger 383/325HP 1966 Buick Gran Sport 401/325HP (Nail-head) PC |
Re: '66 Dodge D-Dart at Mecum auction
Corky,
The camshaft information for the D-Dart. Manufactured by CamCraft out of Maryland. .504 intake/.515 exhaust, with a 284 duration. It was not a Chrysler manufactured unit. Racer Brown did make a sister camshaft for the 273, Model #ST-12, with a lift of .512 intake/.480 exhaust with a duration of 257 @ .050. The only Racer Brown component on the D-Dart were the valve springs. Model #VR-18X (313 lbs. closed)..(150 lbs. open). And no, it did not come with an aluminum dual-plane intake or dual-quad set-up as a factory option. It had a factory modified/free-breathing cast iron intake with the same port sizes as the standard 273/235HP Commando unit. Paul (No problemo' on the info) |
Re: '66 Dodge D-Dart at Mecum auction
Paul, I am aware of the 18-degree valve angle, but I seem to remember that they used to have to notch the tops of the bores if they tried to run 2.02" 340 valves on a (smaller bore) 318.
Just thought a 273 might need a dose of the same medicine to enable it to utilize 1.88" intakes, regarless of valve angle.... |
Re: '66 Dodge D-Dart at Mecum auction
Bill,
I can't remember what we did on the 318's. Definitely had to notch the top of the 273 blocks, when we utilized the 340 heads. We had all the BHJ Cutter Heads and tech info, back in the day. Do remember that you gad to maintain a .030 clearance between the valve and cylinder wall. The 340 exhaust valves in a 273 made no improvement over stock valves (valve shrouding), but did help in the 318. Corky, The CamCraft part #2843719 had a 60 degree overlap. The stock 273/235HP Commando camshaft .425/.425,,248 duaration had a 26 degree overlap. Paul |
Re: '66 Dodge D-Dart at Mecum auction
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Re: '66 Dodge D-Dart at Mecum auction
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Paul, Bone stock with some tuning, on street tires it ran high 16's but every launch was scary, never new when the rear end would give up. With a 4 bbl manifold, small Carter, cam and homemade headers we got it down into the mid 15's with Atlas bucrons. Oiling was a big problem, if it got starved or oil was low you would lose no. 6 cyl but the starter usually kept the piston from going thru the hood....lol! JimR |
Re: '66 Dodge D-Dart at Mecum auction
Bill and Alan,
Not sure if you saw the 1966 "Mods For Mopar 273" article by Eric Dahlquist. With Tom Hoover and Mike Buckle of Chrysler. Article posted February 1966. All detailed info on valve spacing and sizing for the 273, as well as Part #'s. It was the early stages of develpoment for the D-Dart 275 HP. As crazy as it sounds, they knew that the 9 1/4" Auburn clutch on the 273's were poor, and they were recommending a 9 1/4" clutch from a 1953 Dodge V-8 (Borg & Beck #1220). Hard to imagine in 1966 they were recommending a 13 year old part #, as a performance upgrade. Paul |
Re: '66 Dodge D-Dart at Mecum auction
Paul, I think I do remember reading that article, now that you mention it.
Hard to imagine that Chrysler engineering would put such a poor match for that engine's potential in a vehicle designed for clutch abuse. That is way out of character for that group. It wasn't the only one, though. Can you imagine how different the street scene would have been through the '60s if Ma Mopar had had the imagination and determination to build 1. A 440, 6-Pack A Body car such as a bare bones 1969 Valiant 2-door sedan, or '70 Duster with that same motor, or 2. an assembly-line available, 340 or 360 motor with heads that had W-2 flow capabilities, solid lifter cams with .550"+ and 260-degree duration at .050"-lift, and a lighter reciprocating assembly? 3. Small blocks with correct lifter-angle lifter bores and 5 head bolts? It's amazing they ever outran anybody with the truck/tractor parts they put in those reciprocating assemblies (SO heavy!!!) And, the "X" heads had great intake ports, but, the world's worst exhaust ports.... If they'd not been so intent on Hemi technology, at the expense of everything else, it could have been a whole different ballgame out there on the street in '62 thru '71... All the parts were already right there (with the exception of the cams and the lifter-bore geometry.) It was almost like they didn't really WANT to win... Chevrolet had nothing LIKE a 440, 6-pack '69 Valiant.... the 396 Chevy Novas would have been dead meat; they were 200 pounds heaver and had 44 less cubic inches. Can you imagine a Stage III, Max-wedge/727-equipped '64 Valiant on the street??? In 1964??? LOL! Somebody ay MoPar was asleep at the wheel... or, didn't care. Too bad.... It could have been so very different, if they'd concentrated on A-Bodies instead of B-Bodies for the street. Weight = Horsepower.... |
Re: '66 Dodge D-Dart at Mecum auction
Bill,
You hit the nail right on the head, with that list. Ouch!! 5-head bolts per cylinder would have been the problem solver. We tried every damn head gasket out there, and nothing ever seemed to work for any duration. A Max-Wedge in a 64' Valiant. Now that would have been one missle that no one could touch. One problem though, I think the only way you could stop it would be to drive into the front-end of a D-9 Cat Bull-Dozer! I think Chrysler missed the boat on not developing a big-block for the 1970 Dusters and later Demons. Maybe with aluminum heads (Max-Wedge Stage III design) and aluminum intake to lighten the front-end load (ie; L-89 big-block aluminum Chevy heads). As for 273 head mods. The article states that 1.94" (Chrysler 354 Hemi) intakes can be utilized, as long as the stem was shortened by .060. Paul |
Re: '66 Dodge D-Dart at Mecum auction
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Paul,
I thought that I measured the intake valves on the "Mecum" auction cars engine when I had the heads off it. I thought they were 1.87's. I could be wrong. Wouldn't be the first time. This is one of the slugs in it. No relief for the valves. Alan |
Re: '66 Dodge D-Dart at Mecum auction
Paul,
I was looking through my magazine stash and dug these out. Believe it or not, there were a lot of magazine articles written on the little 273. All these have article on building the 273 engine. Chrysler Race Bulletin Number 8 273/318/340 CI ----- (340 CI hand written on the coversheet) Engine Tune-Up Tips Includes D/Dart engine parts and build up Hot Rod -- February 1966 Power Mods For MoPar's 273 Has pictures of Koffel's C/FX engine Car Craft --- March 1966 Fine Pair of Fish -- Ralph Costa's "The Politician" and The Golden Commando's "Goldfish" -- No build up, just a comparison of the two cars Hot Rod Parts Illustrated --- May 1966 Dodge Hemi & 273 Performance Bulletins Super/Stock and FX Magazine --- June 1966 More dig for the 273 Dart -- D/MP Dart w/Offy dual quad intake - Carter carbs -- 300 HP Rodder and Super/Stock --- September 1965 Same article as in SS&FX Magazine --- June 1966 Speed and Custom --- August 1966 Blueprint for Performance -- 273 Drag Secrets Revealed SuperStock & Drag Illustrated --- May 1967 Spehar's 273 Incher -- 1966 D/Dart --- "The Politician" --- D/S Car Craft --- July 1968 Ted Spehar on Mopars -- 1965 Barracuda --- "The Politician" --- F/SA Car Life --- July 1970 Mopar Magic Enjoy Alan |
Re: '66 Dodge D-Dart at Mecum auction
Paul,
Thanks for the extra insight RE: the street racing '60s and '70s as it went with the myopic Chrysler engineers. I have probably made a huge mistake by installing a Vortech supercharger (10 pounds of boost) on an otherwise stock 360 Magnum (it does have a better-than-stock Hughes cam and TTI headers.) It's a 4-headbolt street/strip (Bracket) car. I have lots and lots of anti-detonation Band Aids on it, but if I'd done a 383/400, instead of that 360, I might could get some sleep at night, instead of staying awake all night, trying to come up with new and innovative ways to prevent detonation. How much money would it have cost to engineer that original Polysphere 277 ('56 Plymouth) with 5 headbolts instead of 4???? I hate bean counters... |
Re: '66 Dodge D-Dart at Mecum auction
Alan,
The photo of that piston sure brings back memories. Also, looks like that block has a nice tight seal around the combustion area. No indication of any leakage (blow-by on the gasket seal). Must be a true block!! If I remember correctly, you didn't have to notch the pistons (with a ,500 lift cam) providing you didn't mill the heads. Of course thats with the stock valve units. As for 273 articles. The February 66' Hot Rod article by Eric Dahlquist is probably the best one, on the technical side. Great posting there on all 273 related publications. Thanks* Lifter (tappet) question. Are those solid lifters in the block (hour-glass shaped) or fully solid? Bill,,,A Super-Charger. Where are you going and how fast do you want to get their? A small-block is still the way to go in the A-Bodies for the street. Do you want to know how long it took me to change the spark-plugs on my 69' M-Code 440 Cuda (with stock exhaust manifolds)? When I started, my daughter was in 4th grade, and now that I just finished the #7 cylinder, she's enrolling in college:D Paul |
Re: '66 Dodge D-Dart at Mecum auction
Paul,
They had the hour glass lifters in it. The original owner said he broke a couple of them while racing and replaced them with the solid ones, so there were 13 hour glass and 3 with solid bodies in it. The cylinders had no ridges in them at all when I opened it up. For an engine with over 100,000 miles on it, it looked fantastic. He drove it 75,000 miles with the 4.86 gears in it. That helped a lot. Alan |
Re: '66 Dodge D-Dart at Mecum auction
Paul asked: "Where are you going, and how fast do you want to get there?"
Answer: to the finish line, and, ASAP. I have had a couple of races in my time, and the A-engine/A-Body cars I've owned have always acquitted themselves amirably in the smallish venues I've tried my hand in.... particularly, with regard to racing against big blocks. Still, I know I'd probably be better of with a 383/400 with a turbo than this 360/centrifugal blower. Day after tomorrow, I'll be 71.... :) This 360 probably will provide all the fun I should have, at my age... LOL! |
Re: '66 Dodge D-Dart at Mecum auction
Alan,
Thanks for restoring my memory. Another weak-link in the 273, that could have easily been corrected. Hour-glass shaped lifters. Yes, good for increased lubrication, but shaky for racing purposes (above 6000 RPM). Hard to believe the D-Dart had those units, to go along with stock push-rods. We bent many a stock pushrods, while utilizing stock valve springs (210 lb. rated w/valve open), and broke (split) numerous lifters. I just wonder how many guys with the D-Dart ran into valve train component problems with those high-rated tension valve springs. Bill, Happy Birthday to a young 71. But don't do it. Stay with the small block, and just try to improve the performance. I still have nightmares of working on the big-block in my Cuda. I wake-up, with (8) spark-plugs looking at me at the end of the bed, singing "Changes" by David Bowie:eek: Paul |
Re: '66 Dodge D-Dart at Mecum auction
Bill,
Happy Birthday!!!!!!!!!!!!! Alan |
Re: '66 Dodge D-Dart at Mecum auction
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Re: '66 Dodge D-Dart at Mecum auction
Thanks for the well-wishes, guys! I feel lucky to be here.... remember, I was 18 years old when the first A-engine was introduced.... (1956 Plymouth 277), 24, when the first Maximum Performance Wedge motor (413) showed what it could do in '62, and a ripe, old, 32 when the Duster 340's first showed up!
No wonder I can't remember anything; it was too long ago!!!!!! :( Insofar as my Valiant is concerned, I will likely continue down this ill-advised path until it sheds it's head gaskets, or ring lands, or piston tops.... In that vein, I have a new 4" crank lying on the floor in the living room, a new set of Eagle rods in a box on the couch (the wife's in re-hab, probably permanently {stroke}... what she doesn't see can't hurt me..). and a second (as in, "additional") Vortech blower sitting in my bedroom closet... I'm not gonna give this up without a fight... Now, all I need is a set of forged pistons and a better set of heads... |
Re: '66 Dodge D-Dart at Mecum auction
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Wives have a way of finding out!!!! |
Re: '66 Dodge D-Dart at Mecum auction
"Wives have a way of finding out!!!!"
I'd be willing to bet she already knows all about it! Jim |
Re: '66 Dodge D-Dart at Mecum auction
[QUOTE=bill dedman
Day after tomorrow, I'll be 71[/QUOTE] HAPPY BIRTHDAY to an old fart from another old fart.............LOL. |
Re: '66 Dodge D-Dart at Mecum auction
Terry, you're just all jolly because there's somebody on here older than YOU!!! LOL!
If my wife finds out about the stroker and the 2nd blower, I probably won't be around to write a thank-you note, so, I'll do it, now!!! Thanks to everyone who wrote well wishes for me on my 71'st birthday. For anyone who cares.... I have the bill from the hospital for my "delivery" on 12/20/'38. It's $29.00.... That's $440.14 in 2009 dollars.... STILL A BARGAIN!!!!!!!!!!!! :) |
Re: '66 Dodge D-Dart at Mecum auction
Bill, I bet your wife knew about that thought, 6 months before it entered your brain:rolleyes:
Paul |
Re: '66 Dodge D-Dart at Mecum auction
Yeah; if I'd listened to her, I'd have a turbocharged, stroked, 383 in there, but I like a challenge.... :)
Four head bolts and two Vortechs.... Now, THERE'S a challenge... LOL! |
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