Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

OK, the Catalina was the same size as the Bonnie, but had a different grill. They also had the same fastback roof line in the 2-door models. So, one of these will do just as good.

The '78's had a different grill than the '77's. I found a '78 on the track. :)

What do ya'll think would be the chances of finding one of these old cars in usable condition ? :confused:

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

Then, of course to make N/SA @ 14.5 lbs/hp, would require a wagon or a GP SJ. But because of the lack of side vision, I've decided not to use a GP.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...spx?ENGINE=764

http://www.classracerinfo.com/NHRA_Classes.aspx

Either a Cat or a Grand Safari wagon would do nicely, and have PLENTY of side vision. Besides having more weight over the rear tires, the extra side vision is another advantage of using a wagon. :)

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

I have nothing to offer, I just wanted to say that if enthusiasm were equal to wins, you'd be number 1 in points every year!
Good luck with your project.

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

Thanks !

Now I need to ask a rear end question. Does anybody know if these '77 Cats and Bonnies had the 8.5" rear ? :confused:

I know the '71-'81 Birds and I think the '71-'74 Ventura had the 8.5. I have one in my '74 Vent bracket car, and it seems plenty strong for a low 12 or high 11 sec car. But I've read that some of the lower powered Vents from the later '70's had the smaller 7.5 rear. Just don't know about the Cats and Bonnies.

I've read that these big tens are almost as strong as a 12 bolt and will do just fine at this level of racing. I've never broken a stock axle. But I reckin NHRA requires aftermarket axles and / or C-clip eliminators. Is this correct ? :)

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

You just need a Bonneville 2 dr. to make N/SA.

Had one for sale here a couple of years ago..Cheap roller.
No calls..No notes...Scrapped it!


Yes 2 dr. should be 8.5 ..Watch the wagons..They had a weird one..2 inches wider too.

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

I must be missing something here. If I'm reading this info correctly, it says that the weight break for N/SA is 14.5 lbs/hp, with an index of 13 flat.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/NHRA_Classes.aspx

This page says a wagon hits 14.50 right on the head, @ 4103 lbs. But I got out the calculator and it says that in order to get those figures, they'd have to be using the 283hp factor for this engine in a Bird.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...spx?ENGINE=764

But the info on this page clearly says that the 180hp 400 engine was only factored at 283 in the Birds. It is factored at only 260 in everything else. So if this ain't so, now I'm really confused. :confused:

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...spx?ENGINE=764

So am I just reading the info sheet wrong ? Or, are their calculations wrong ? Shouldn't they be using the 260hp factor for this engine in the Cats, Bonnies and wagons ??? If this info is incorrect, where exactly can I find the correct Stocker info ??? :confused:

OK, assuming that the hp factor of 260 is correct, Then a 2-door Bonnie Brougham with this engine would have a weight factor of :

3689 lbs / 260hp = 14.19 instead of the 13.04 listed on the Class Racer Info page. So if this is correct, then you could just add weight to make the 14.50 lbs/hp break, which will be an N/SA.

14.50 x 260hp = 3770lbs - 3689 = 81lbs difference

So, you'd need to add 81 lbs to the shipping weight of the car to make the 14.50 weight break.

So. exactly how would I go about finding out if the hp factor is listed wrong on the sheet, or the calculations are done wrong, by using the 283 Bird hp factor for the engine ? :confused:

It would be a shame to build a car, going by incorrect info, only to find out at your 1st event tech, that you will be in a completely different class than you planned and built for. :(

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

OK, unless and until I hear different, I'll assume that the 260hp factor is the figure to use when doing class calculations for everything except a Bird in '77. And, as of now, I'll have to use the shipping weights listed on these Class Racer info sheets. But I'll ignore their weight break calculations and do my own with a calculator.

So, by using this method, it appears that the highest class that could be run with this engine in a non-Bird is with a Cat 2-door.

3601 lbs / 260hp = 13.85

So, if I understand the rules correctly you can take out weight to meet the minimum for the class your car naturally falls into. Or you can take out more weight to meet the minimum for the next higher class. Or you can add weight to make the next lower class. So, that means that most cars can run any one of 3 classes just by adding or removing weight. Is this correct ?

If so, then the 2-door Cat I mentioned will naturally fall into the 13.50 weight break class, which is L/SA. Or, I can remove weight to meet the minimum for the next higher class which has a 13.00 weight break. This will be a K/SA with an index of 12.65.

13.00 x 260hp = 3380 lbs

3601 - 3380 = 221 lbs

If my calculations are correct, you'd have to remove 221 lbs from the 3601 lb shipping weight, to fit the 13.00 lb/hp weight break perfectly. Is it legal to run that far below the shipping weight ?

Just out of curiosity, what year did NHRA start allowing you to add and take out weight to make different classes. Before they did this, did they 1st just allow you to remove weight to meet the minimum for your natural class ? Or did they make the changes all at the same time ?

When we ran Stock, the car ran at no less than its shipping weight--period. What ever class it naturally fell into, that's the class you ran with that car. That gave some cars a weight advantage. We ran a 330hp '68 Bird with a 3300 lb shipping weight. So it was a perfect fit for the 10 lb/hp weight break--E/SA. :)

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

http://www.classracerinfo.com/CGPage...7&MAKE=Pontiac

Dwight's site is not incorrect.
It's the operator that's incorrect. LOL

Just look up the body style, one at a time..You are confusing yourself the way you are doing it.

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

That chart is wrong concerning the 77 Cat wagon. A 2 seater falls at 15.72 and a 3 seater 15.78 .Both natural O cars. Minimum O weight with driver is 4070. The 2 door Cat falls at 13.85 natural L car. 13.5 X 260=3510 + 170=3680. K would be 13 x 260=3380+170=3550. a difference of 130 lbs. M would be 14 x 260=3640 + 170=3810. which is 130 lbs above your natural L weight. Use the NHRA classification guide instead of those charts and you won't go wrong.

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

OK, thanks for the info. I've never seen that page. Don't know yet how to call it up. But I don't understand why the non-birds are shown with calculations using the 260hp factor on this page that you linked, and the 283 factor on the page I was looking at ? It just appears to me that it is not possible for both pages to be correct. Seems it has to be one way or the other ? But then, what do I know ? :confused:

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

Go to the top of this page and click on NHRA Competition. Then click Stock car classification on the left of the page. Then find the make and year and open it up.

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

Dwight 's site makes this all much easier, but you've got to know where you're driving to first, other wise you'll crash and burn.
Start with NHRA and when you figure out where you're driving to, go to Dwight's deal.
It's the way to go..Trust me.

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

OK, THANKS !

It takes longer to get there, but it does show the 260hp factor for non-Birds, AND shows the correct calculations for them. So, I need to depend on this NHRA site for all final calculations--Got it ! Thanks again ! :)

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

OK guys, I still need an answer to the weight change questions. When we raced Stock, you were stuck with whatever your factory shipping weight was. That was your min weight. So please tell me EXACTLY how the weight and class changes work. THANKS !

(1) Can you add weight to make the next lower class ?

(2) Can you remove weight to meet the minimum weight for your natural class ?

(3) Can you remove enuff weight to meet the minimum weight for the next higher class ?

(4) Is there a max amount of weight you can remove below your shipping weight ? :confused:

(5) Explain EXACTLY how the driver weight figures in again. Maybe I'll get it all, this time. :o

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

WEIGHT
All cars will be permitted to run on the class minimum weight, but
may be no heavier than the minimum for the next heavier class.
Car can move up (lighter) one class or down (heavier) one class. If
weight is added, must be properly attached; see BALLAST. Class
and classification weight are determined without driver weight.
Once classification weight is calculated, 170 pounds is added for
driver to arrive at total weight. All cars are weighed with driver.

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

OK, THANKS ! That clears it all up, except for one thing. I just wanna be sure, so I'll ask again. Is there no limit to the amount of weight you can remove in order to meet the min for the next higher class ? :confused:

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

No restrictions other than you will reach a point depending on the platform where there is simply no viable way to remove any further weight. Our '67 Camaro for instance...we had to add 20 pounds to meet minimum weight for E/SA which means I would have to find around 120 pounds to remove in order to arrive at D/SA minimum. Our car still has the factory seats which are a tad on the heavy side...aftermarket seats would help to a point, but it would be a struggle to find more in this particular car.

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

OK, Thanks a lot ! I really appreciate all the info ! If I don't understand the weight deal now, it's my own fault and I probably don't need to think about a class car anymore. :o

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

Now for some questions about original equipment. What components must be retained in a Stocker.

I'll mention a few in particular.

(1) Dash pad

(2) Heater core, cover(box) & ducting

(3) Heater / AC controls in the dash

(4) Speedo, gauges, etc(instrument cluster)

(5) Glove box and door

(6) Sun visors, headliner, overhead light.

(7) Wiring harness

(8) Rear seat

(9) Wheel well chrome trim

(10) Other factory chrome trim, emblems, & decals

(11) Front inner fenderwells

(12) Front bench seat: if removed, can it be replaced with one lightweight racing seat ? Or ?

(13) Must you run some sort of carpeting or floor covering ?

(14) How quick or fast can a car be without rollbars being required ?

If nobody has time to answer all these questions, is there a link to where I can get answers to all of 'em. Thanks !

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

All your questions answered here... http://www.nhraracer.com/content/gen...000&zoneid=132

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

OK, I'll check it out. Thanks ! :)

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

OK I want to throw my .02 in. Earlier in the thread you were considering a "big Body" like 1976 Pontiac, I guess this would be a GM B Body car (1971-1976) I have never been underneath one but I did some research looking for diagrams or photos of rear suspension but came up empty. I did come across aftermarket parts though for these cars which include Control arms which tells me they are coil spring cars not much different than the 65-70 B Body gm car like my Impala.

If I am wrong here then skip the rest.

These are different from A Body cars which some guys have been showing you for rear suspension upgrades. The first difference is the coil springs perch between the lower control arm and frame, not on axle tube like A Body rears. The upper control ares are a straight forward shot, not angled like A Body cars. Some early B Bodies like my 65 came as a "3 link" rear suspension, 2 lowers only 1 upper bar. Hi-Performance did have 4 links like I have in the 65 Impala stocker I am building. No-Hop bars are not available for these cars .I have Southside Machine lower control arm traction bar which is basically a Square tube solid bushing bar with a adjustment that lowers the attachment point on the axle effectively changing the instant center of the car which aids in planting tires. The same effect is done with the "No-Hop" bars on the A Body cars. With adjustable Upper control arms, no air bags thats all I needed to do. Not really complicated. The only heads-up is where the upper bars attach to the crossmember on frame needs to be strengthen. I would leave at 6300+ RPM with a stick at 4095 lbs. Check out my Build in this forum,
"BBC Impala update" or something like that.

I would crawl under the cars to take pics but lots of snow , blizzard outside now!

Will Lamprecht I/SA Implala in progress.

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

OK, this might be "blasphemy" even though the pics of the Wood's "Ton's O Fun" station wagon looks as cool as crap, I would say the suspension is not set up right and wasted motion produces wasted horsepower = lower ET's ? I liked the fact my Impala launched straight and level. Aren't we looking for that?

Will Lamprecht I/SA 65 Impala in progress

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

??

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

Yeah, that's exactly what I thought when I first saw that pic. A couple of years back there was a Chevelle that ran at our local track that did the exact same thing.

Back when I ran my '69 bracket GTO, I moved the batt to the right rear of the trunk. But both tires came off the ground just quick enuff to cause a redlight, when leaving at the 1st hint of light from the bottom yellow.

So, I moved the batt as far as I could to the left front of the car, on the frame rail. This didn't keep the left front on the track, but it did keep the right front rolling on the track instead of in the air. And, since one tire is all it takes to block the beam of light, the redlight problem was fixed.

All I had was air bags and stiffened rubber bushings. And I put more air in the right side. That set up was all I needed for the racing I was doing. But exactly what is the procedure for setting up the suspension on an A-body, to prevent this body twist, or whatever it's called, and make it leave level and straight ?

I assume there are lots of sites that have this info online. I haven't done a search. But I'd like to hear from some of you guys about what you did to make your A-body suspension work. I've already read that some just used air shocks, or air bags and stiff bushings. Some used adjustable upper arms, or no-hop bars. So apparently there is more than one way to do it. So I'd like to hear more. :)

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

Roll cage and anti roll bar.

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

I assume that means, get a rule book and search out the answers for your yourself. I found a couple of answers in the general rules, but not for some of my specific questions.

I'm not gonna join NHRA unless and until I build a car that I know will run the index or quicker.

So, if reading a rule book is the only way to get some of the answers, would one of you guys be so kind as to help out an old dude and send me one of your old rulebooks by snail mail ? It's OK if it has a few greasy fingerprints on it. :D Thanks !

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

You can download it here. https://www.nationaldragster.net/bit...-rulebook.html

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

OK, I'll give it a shot. thanks ! :)

Nope, access denied--for NHRA members only ! :(

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

I think what Tony means you use the roll bar as a way to strengthen frame. I have lower crossbraces to that crossmember that tends to pull out. I also replaced rubber body bushings with solids.

Will Lamprecht I/SA Impala 1965 in progress

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

I am not a member (yet). I click download pdf and it downloads on my computer

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

That's what I was referring to. Roll cage to tie together and prevent frame twist, then anti roll bar to prevent suspension twist. Obviously solid bushings to help stop suspension movement (and body bushings too, as you stated). I also prefer adjustable shocks for fine tuning. Some of this is referring to coil spring cars in general, (my Mustangs), while some of it is from previous A bodies, I have owned. (Monte Carlo, several Chevelles). These are my choices, others may have a different opinion.

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

So, if you won't spend the money to to join the NHRA to learn how to build a Stocker then why are we having this conversation?

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

I wondered this myself, lol. And although I have not yet joined either, I am in the early stages of my build, and will as it progresses. The link I showed downloaded the 2014 rulebook, which in these early stages is all I needed.

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

Yeah, if I understand the general rules I looked at online, it appears that all cars must have at least a 5-point roll bar which includes a driver side bar. So, I assume that a good 6-point will strengthen the body / frame enuff for 11 or 12 sec Stocker duty. :)

Found this info in section 20, page 20-21 under "4:10 Roll Bar" There is an illustration on page 21.

http://www.nhra.com/userfiles/file/T...A_Rulebook.pdf

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

You should reread. All cars are not required to have a rollbar. It is ET specific.

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

It is CLASS specific. N/S and lower do not need a rollbar.

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

OK, I reckin I can't read. I just read thru it again. It says that all cars with frames must have the roll bars bolted or welded to the frame, and all unibodies must use plates welded or bolted to body, etc. Also tells and shows how to attach seat to roll bar.

So, are you saying that some cars can use a stock seat even without a head rest, and no roll bars, if they go slow enuff ? I'm sorry to ask such infintile questions. But if I knew the answers I wouldn't be asking. :o

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

I guess we are both right. Let an N/Stocker run quicker than 11.49 and it too will be getting a rollbar,(and a HP Factor), LOL. But you are correct, as it stands, CLASS specific in Stock.

Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy
 

Billy , is exactly right about N/S - N/SA & Higher ( O,P, etc. ) That's another advantage for your build ...