Re: Resurrecting the Rambler
 

I have a anodized 258 amc purple valve cover that would look nice on your motor it should be worth .0001 improvement. I will donate it to you, let me know. I have photos can send to you.

Nick

Re: Resurrecting the Rambler
 

Yep, it's the cold and nasty season here in central IL, I've been a little sick and hacking like everybody else around here, but thankfully I haven't had to shovel any snow yet. Snow and winter in general: I hate that stuff with a passion. While waiting this all out for spring, I'm trying to find some race-related projects to busy myself with that may pay off later as far as the stocker is concerned. As it was last year, the business I work on the car at is pretty busy so I haven't had use of their lifts in recent weekends.
About all that's taken place on the race car lately was to hump a 133 lb foot wide chunk of 1" thick flat steel into the back hatch area and bolt it down so I can make proper weight for T class. I still have room for the fuel cell.

The pictures I'll post are some new goodies and pieces of the correct intake manifold all painted up nice along with the correct numbered head, and also those of a secondary 258 engine build and some test fitting of the induction and headers before I attempt to hang those onto the AMX which for convenience's sake still is wearing the wrong numbered factory type intake and exhaust manifolds. The main purpose of this spare engine is to use it for some testing, because as it sits right now, the part numbers I built it out of are not NHRA legal, although as far as function and type of parts is concerned, it's a very close match to what would be legal. Most likely it will go into a 1970 2 door Hornet I have out back with a sour engine in it right now. I can street drive this one anytime I'd want and gather some data all year long rather than have to keep waiting for the track to be open to take the real race car to, plus I get another neat old street ride to tool around in! The car I'm writing about has a picture posted way back in the beginning of this thread where the red back end of the Hornet can be seen resting between two trees. I used to drive this car to work and back some several years ago, and my younger brother used to borrow it for some local bracket racing when he felt the need. It's totally stock and is an automatic. The weight of this car should closely match that of the '79 AMX stocker, so maybe I can get some seat of the pants info when I drive it around. It should be easy to tune things like carburetors and ignition systems and change other parts around on too since the engine bay is uncluttered with much of anything. If something I try works well, I'll transfer it over to the stocker.

Right now I'm trying to engineer some header bushings to "bolt" the headers down with. AMC used the exhaust manifold casting as part of the mounting system of both the intake and exhaust together when they're in place, and when you take the exhaust manifold out of the picture and replace it with a header, it takes away 50% of your mounting hardware surfaces. The mounting bolts use a large concave washer to press on both factory pieces when you install them. Bushings will have to be fabricated to take the place of the missing surfaces that allow the bolts to butt up against the header flanges. So in effect, the header is half bolted down through a few typical holes in the flange, and half "smashed" into place on 6 others.
One of the pictures I'm posting is that of a torn up and sawed off Clifford header that I located which I can build my own headers out of. Nobody makes a car header for AMC's that will do what I need, so it's build your own time. All I really needed was the flange and the beginnings of the tubes, and this sad looking thing fit the bill for cheap. I'm sure I was the only man in America who gave a crap about this thing when it hit the sale ads. It will probably be next winter for the header building project though. I'm thinking a 'two banks of three" design.

I'll resize a few pics of the engine pieces and post them later.

Re: Resurrecting the Rambler
 

And the pics...

Re: Resurrecting the Rambler
 

And one more picture.

Re: Resurrecting the Rambler
 

Let's try that again...

Re: Resurrecting the Rambler
 

Brian, i'm a bit confused. What headers are in the pictures with the head?
Also if you're going to mount the cell in the back of the car you'll need some sort of a bulkhead to isolate the cell from the interior compartment. My cell was mounted under the rear floor area where the old gas tank was located. I had a metal trap door to reach the filler cap. The vent had a short 90 degree bend to keep it out of the interior of the car.
Hope this helps.

Re: Resurrecting the Rambler
 

This is what you'll have to fabricate to install the headers with the stock intake. Not the best illustration but I guess you'll get an idea of what's needed.

Re: Resurrecting the Rambler
 

Thanks for the drawing Ed, that's really close to what I envisioned trying to make to cinch down the headers. Appreciate that greatly, as now I know it should work OK.
The fuel cell--I also intended to mount it where the original tank was, because that's about the only way I could do it within the rules. I was looking at trying to find a way to access it from the license plate area somehow, it would make filling it up a lot easier, but that may go by the wayside. I reserved space to make a trap door on the right side of the hatchback floor area just in case I had to go that way, and if it does that would match your build on the Gremlin. The complication of that for me is to find a spot in the back to park a weight box where I may need to add 30-50 lbs depending on track scales. I'm already keeping the space-saver spare tire, the jack, and the tire tool for weight and they're all on the left side. Real estate is pretty precious in a small car!

The header pictures: the one where everything is assembled onto the correct head destined to go onto the car soon--that one is not the "ideal" header to use, it's an off the shelf Hedman, but it's all I have right now that will fit into the car. Got to be better than the factory exhaust manifold.
The picture showing the header that's all cut up is going to be the start of a custom built set that will clear everything easily, sweep back across the engine as needed, and use a "3 tubes into one collector--times two idea". A lot of the Hedman Jeep headers are using that same set-up, they have two collectors on them-- the three into two design, but Jeep headers will in no way shape or form fit a car.

Re: Resurrecting the Rambler
 

Why not cut the Hedmans down a way from the collectors and fabricate a dual collector header? My old car now has a step header one collector setup in it. You said you already
put a 110# bar in and the space saver tire, how light are you now for T ?
Call me when you get a chance. (732) 991-7570

Re: Resurrecting the Rambler
 

I'll call you Ed.

Re: Resurrecting the Rambler
 

Congrats with what you've done thus far, and good luck with all forthcoming Brian! I look forward to seeing/reading about you and your car being out there having fun on the quarter-mile as soon as possible....all the best from out west! :)

Re: Resurrecting the Rambler
 

Thank you Gary, appreciate hearing that.

The ol' car is essentially ready to go try as it sits, there will be some more improvements and refinements made before the season starts up around here in April, but the majority of those will be pretty minor ones. What I mainly need is track time to do a whole lot of A-B testing with what I have here now. My pile of spare pieces to try out has grown quite a bit over the winter. Extra correct numbered carburetors, intake, a spare head, some factory aluminum valvetrain pieces. The expensive pieces I really need to quicken the car up will have to come as I can afford them.

On the plus side: A "supposed to be rebuilt by my son in his college auto shop class but untested in a car" AMC 904 transmission I picked up as a throw-in on a Jeep guy's garage clean-out deal, turned out to be an A998 model trans which is just like the regular A904 presently in the race car but it has the lower first gear cluster in it and this particular one has no lock-up converter features to have to worry about like most of them had. They used it in the massively underpowered four and six cylinder AMC's and Dodge's in the real early 80's.
It's exactly what the doctor ordered for my Stocker. Low gear for cheap! (if it works...)

Re: Resurrecting the Rambler
 

I hear ya Brian with regards to the "lock-up" tranny issue. My engine builder Verle Stevens was asked by Marv Ripes "The Founder" of "A1 Torque Convertors", to have my Turbo125 converted to non-lock-up, so he could build a convertor for it. I'm so glad that happened, and the convertor has been great for my car too....good luck with yours!

Re: Resurrecting the Rambler
 

Been a long time since I had anything to report, but finally the weather and my work schedule cooperated and I got a Sunday test session in.
As you can see in the above quote, the initial shakedown pass from late last year in cool weather, leaving the car in drive, absolutely blistered the 1/8th mile asphalt with an 11.42 . Sorry to report I didn't better that by an extreme amount this time in testing, but I did learn a whole bunch of things while making a total of 6 runs.
Conditions were way less than ideal. It was sunny and ranged from 65 to 75 degrees over the course of the afternoon, which was the great part, but we were running straight into gusting headwinds of 25-35 mph all day long. I haven't done the math to see what factor that would lower the ET's yet, but at this point it isn't that vital. Keep in mind, the engine and trans are still bone stock, the whole idea here is to line out everything else before putting the expensive stuff in place.

RUN 1: 12 noon, OT= 65 degrees. Water temp-150. Left car in Drive for a shakedown pass. Noticed it still shifted very early into 2nd gear even with the kick down linkage left alone and as removed from other Spirit.
ET-11.65 at 58.67 mph. 60' was 2.59. Line loc has decided to not work for some reason, so not a decent burn out on this run. Hmmm...worked last fall. Checked over for any fluid leaks back in pits, everything good. I can hear the line-loc solenoid clicking when button is pushed in, but isn't holding anything. Oh well, I guess I'll foot brake it some on the burn-outs.

RUN 2: 12:45 OT= 69 degrees. Water temp 165. Manually shifted the car into 2nd this time at 4500 rpm. Same for 3rd. Still getting used to pulling on those levers, but I like it! I feel like Butch Leal with a Lenco in hand. Shifts are a little lazy acting, not surprising since this trans has 100,000 miles on it.
ET-11.55 at 58.36 . 60' was 2.48.

RUN 3: 1:45 OT= 71 degrees. Water temp 185, I wanted to get a run in at a normal road use/long-idle-period operating temp which is how I used to run the blue '80 Spirit long ago. Noticed the bite at the line was better, maybe the "green" track is coming around now, or I'm getting the hang of foot-braking a mild burn-out. Shifted the car at 4000 this time, couldn't tell much difference because the kickdown linkage overrides a too-early shift under full throttle and it winds up into the mid 4's regardless.
ET-11.34 at 60.24 .60' was 2.46.
I guess the stock engine likes it hot.

RUN 4: 2:30 OT=75 degrees. Water temp at 185 again. Decided to play with shift points 200 rpm at a time, so moved up to 4200. This run felt very positive all the way thru compared to the others. Results bear that out.
ET-11.24 at 61.48 . 60' was 2.46 .Next run we'll see if things stabilize any.

RUN 5: 4:00, OT= 73. Long clean-up session caused delay between runs. I let the water get up to the 180+ area again and made shifts at 4500 as I did in Run 2. (If that seems like a low shift point, it's because a stock engine doesn't make any power after that anyway.) Took my factory ram-air ducting off and ran it without the air cleaner assembly.
ET-11.36 at 60.40 . 60' was 2.50 . Allowing for the -.04 difference in 60', I'd have to say that running without the air cleaner and ducting certainly isn't helping my cause. Re-installed for last run.

RUN 6: 4:30, OT=72 . Plenty of headwind out there still. Shifting at 4500. Water temp still at 180, trying not to put too many variables in now.
ET-11.28 at 60.48 mph. 60' 2.50 .

So what did I learn? I need a line-loc that works. The last year's only T.T. session showed a 2.42 on a seasoned track, so there's more to be had there. The ram-air system works. If I factor the 60' about the same, the car tends to run about the same ET's accordingly.

Now all I need to bracket this thing some is seat time, my lights were terrible. I was never a shallow stage-er in the past, so I'm learning a new rhythm method for my light countdown. Can't just leave off the bottom bulb with this car, that gets you about a .750 light. With such a slow leave, I'm trying to leave inbetween the 2nd and 3rd bulbs now.
I also need to start spending some money. I'm only 2.4 seconds away from the index. :) But the drivetrain is holding up and I've got the shifter rod pulls adjusted right where I like them.

Re: Resurrecting the Rambler
 

If you haven't done it already, I'd strongly recommend your recording your run data in a log book (such as the ones you can get from either Jeg's, or Summit). Although this years log book doesn't allow two pages per race like the older ones did (from Jeg's that is which was better, because they allowed you to record the number of runs on your engine, the oil, and one or two other things), they are great barometers for comparing runs and weather conditions, along with tire pressure, shift points, stahl speed and most importantly wind speed/direction. Moreover, the older ones allowed you to record your actual weight (which can vary from one run to the next), and record notes like you mentioned here. Most importantly for points chaser's (like me), you can (could) note how many points you earned from the race being logged on those pages, and also sum up your total points below it (since points are counted in the NHRA in three ways for sportsman racers. It would be nice if next years log book would not only go back to 2pgs per race, but also leave the lower right of pg. 2 include space for points summaries for divisional, the Jeg's All-Stars, and the Lucas Oil National points as well. I made a request (for part) of this in a voice message to Jeg's, and I hope it will make it's way into next years log book????

Otherwise it sounds like you're headed in the right direction, and once your car is done, it should join the long list of stockers that out-run my Z24 Cavalier (9's in the 1/8th, and 15's in the 1/4, at altitudes of 2600ft and below). Continued success with your Rambler's development, and WELCOME TO STOCK ELIMINATOR DRAG RACING BRIAN!

Re: Resurrecting the Rambler
 

"Once your car is done..."

I like the sound of that! At least the adventure of quickening things up can start now that I know my build work appears to hold together.

Re: Resurrecting the Rambler
 

Test session #2 is complete now at the Coles County 8th mile. Had ideal weather conditions, even a slight tailwind of 5-10 mph when I started out. What a change from last time with the massive headwinds.
Leaving the shift points at 4500, the only change I elected to make from the last session was to set the timing different and adjust the fuel mixture. I actually retarded the timing a little because I was told it might be too far advanced where I had it. OK, we'll try it out.

Run1: Right at 70 degrees outside, car water temp was at 165, a little sluggish off the line and since it was a single pass, I thought I heard the tires scrunch some on the leave.
Remember that I'd already found out the engine needs to be fairly hot to do well, being in it's factory stock state, so I drove it around some in the pits to get things flowing before going up to the line, but it wasn't quite up to it's good old operating temps.
11.05 @ 63.21 60'= 2.44
Already way ahead of the best run it had made before by 2 tenths. What would some of you give to gain 2 tenths ? Lucky for me, it cost nothing. I'm sure that will change from now on.

Run 2: 68 degrees out, car temp up to 180. No changes to anything else.
10.98 @ 63.37 60' = 2.44
Ye-haw! We've cracked the 10's now! The sobering fact is that there's only 1.94 seconds of improvement needed to hit the 8th mile index for T/SA.

Run 3: 67 degrees, sun going down now. Wind calming. Practically hot-lapped the car, only gave it about a 10 minute rest before heading back up. Really felt like I had a good burnout this time, and it bears out on the time slip.
10.98 @ 63.36 60' = 2.39 Definitely a little harder leave, I could feel it in the seat of the pants. I don't think there was any spin at all on this one.

Run 4: 64 degrees, twilight, car at the usual 180 temp. No other changes at all.
The main thing I noticed being different during these runs was that it seemed to be pulling harder in high gear than the previous test session. Weather conditions? Timing change before this session?
10.97 @ 63.36 60' = 2.43
Best ET so far. We'll build from that.

Man, this thing is a real consistent bracket beast if you throw out the first run every time you go to the track! MPH stays the same, and it's within 1 hundredth on three straight runs. Reminds me of the old glory days with one of my other deadly consistent AMC cars.
I'd like to get this AMX to the 1/4 mile now at St. Louis or Indy and get some real-world data from that, but it will have to wait for a couple weeks. Stay tuned.

Re: Resurrecting the Rambler
 

Been a long time coming, but my 1/4 mile session finally happened with the powertrain still in it's factory stock condition. When I say stock, I mean stock: stock torque converter, engine driven fuel pump, and even the bulky 75 lbs worth of cast iron exhaust manifold and catalytic converter are still hanging under there.

Without reporting all the nuances of the 1/4 mile test session up at US 41 in northern Indiana, the initial run--which up to now has always been useless to gauge anything from--was a 17.48, and was eventually honed down by launch style, engine temp, timing, and shift point changes to a 17.20. Other than 4.56 gears and slicks and the addition of enough weight to get it right for T/SA, there has been nothing else changed as far as performance pieces whatsoever. I could drive this car to work every day right now if I wanted to!

So, this ends what I call 'Stage 1', which was to get the car constructed and go up and down the track(s) to get some baseline data. It didn't hurt to get ME used to doing this drag racing stuff again, it had been a long 15 years since I'd been up and down the track with any regularity. I'm tuning into the tree a little better now.

Stage 2 will begin now. I'll be taking the engine/trans out of the car and adding a converter and low geared trans to the mix. The engine will now get the redone head that's been waiting, a big dose of stocker camshaft, a fuel system, and the addition of headers. I'll return and update again here when the car is ready to go try.

I only need about 3 seconds of ET reduction to get into the show. (wow)

Re: Resurrecting the Rambler
 

it seems to me like big gains at those speeds are easier to come by takes less hp to make a big difference. with what you suggested i could see it picking up alot, just from experience tinkering with stockish amcs on a drag strip i'd suggest a good electronic ignition msd would be preferred they make a huge difference.

Re: Resurrecting the Rambler
 

The mid-year "rebuild" is going pretty good. The stocker cam is in, the freshened correct numbered head and intake is on, the headers are installed, motor is back in the bay, and all that's holding things up is some more transmission work.

While waiting for parts I had some downtime, so I put it to use painting my balls.

Re: Resurrecting the Rambler
 

I like what I'm hearing about your car, and it's just a matter of time until you're out-running my Cavalier. That Stocker engine and tranny rebuild should do it, and I look forward to reading about it. As for my car, I'm looking to try those E3 Diamond Fire spark plugs, to see if the'll finally get me into the 14's, because per last years Winternationals, I just missed it by .015 seconds! I wish Accel was still popular with their Calmaps, because I have one of them in my car, but need to find software to upload it into a computer I can use to change my air/fuel mixture some more, and I'm wanting to find another .3 seconds before I start trying to attend Indy! I refuse to go there from Phoenix, until I know my car will run at least .85 under my 15.60 index, because I won't go all the way out there just to make some qualifying runs and class run(s)....I want to be in the Big Go Show too!!!!

Last year it took a run of -.893 under the index to be the 128th qualifier, and at Pomona my best run in qualifying had me -.580 under my DF/S index of 15.60, so I know what I need to do and I hope the E3 plugs help my cause in getting there...I'll find out in less than 2mths! Good luck with what's next for your car.

What type of converter are you putting in there? Mine's an A1 8" that's designed to stahl at 3600rpm. That, and a 3.73 final drive ratio in my tranny help me get 1.96 60ft. times. I know what you said about the weight of your car, but I'm hoping that the minimum weight for T/SA is less than your car weighs with you in it, so you might find some other things you can remove from it to shrink at least to within 30lbs of the minimum weight. I wish I had more weight to get rid of (sans me that is, lol), but I think I've removed all of the legal weight I can, and I still weigh 60-70lbs over my classes minimum, and I would be a stick with arms and legs if I took that much weight off of me....NOT HAPPENING!!!! LOL :)

Re: Resurrecting the Rambler
 

Short of acid-dipping or drilling 1000 holes and Swiss-cheesing the front half of the car, which I'm told isn't legal, there isn't a whole lot else left to pare front end weight cheaply off of this ride other than--getting it off me. Neither of those first two options will happen. The "me" option is a possibility if I can get serious enough.

What a lot of people don't think about with my chosen combo is the AMC 6 is a very heavy engine, it weighs about the same as an AMC V8 does, but being real long in design, it also hangs more weight out ahead of the front tires than the 304 V8 would have. There's only so much you can do to offset that without going super expensive. And this is a "dime rocket", remember? :)
What weight I could get off the front during the build almost all had to get put into the back end to get the car back up to the legal T class weight, so there really wasn't a big net gain of weight savings for all the effort. What gain there was was to equal out the front/rear weight distribution better than it was before, and that was about it.

Gary--with my ride using a low-horsepower long stroke low-end torque motor that will hardly see 5000 rpm, I'm going to start out with a mild converter--around 2700 stall--and then advance up from there just a little bit if needed. On paper, it doesn't seem to need a whole lot. After 3200 stall, the gains are insignificant from what I'm seeing.

Re: Resurrecting the Rambler
 

Re: Resurrecting the Rambler
 

Nice to see a AMC stocker. I run Ford oil filter off a 460,it will fit your 6 cyl motor&holds more oil.

Re: Resurrecting the Rambler
 

Thanks for the tip Rich, but more oil in the filter means more front end weight! (laugh)

Re: Resurrecting the Rambler
 

Well I'm glad that you were able to transfer some of the weight from the front to the back, because that'll be better for traction. Good luck with your combo, and I hope to see pics of the whole finished car soon! :)

Re: Resurrecting the Rambler
 

Car is all put back together, up and running again, will head for the local 1/8th mile test track Friday evening to see how things are now. A short check-out drive up and down the road last Monday suggests that there should be big improvement on ET. Personally, I was just glad to see my mystery rebuilt transmission go through all the gears fine and nothing spraying out from underneath the car when I got done. An awful lot of stuff got changed and hopefully improved.
The auto shop owner where I work on the car at got real interested when the initial firing and break-in of the engine happened down in the end bay. Normally he kind of leaves me to myself down there unless I need him for help with something I can't do alone. After he helped with the idle mixture and timing adjustments, when we shut the motor down from the break-in period, he remarked "that is the most pissed-off sounding 6 cylinder I've ever heard".
Yeah baby.....

Public thanks need to go out to to Lyn Smith for a spare torque converter he had that got things hurried up on my re-do. We'll see how she works Lyn! Thank you.

Re: Resurrecting the Rambler
 

Sounding like it's going to get up and running really good! I wish you all the best at the 1/8th mile, and hope you get some runs in that blast past that T/SA 1/8th mile index of 9.04, this coming Friday!

Re: Resurrecting the Rambler
 

Both good and bad to report this time. My one and only run at the test session netted me almost a full second off where I used to be on ET, (and this with a big hesitation at the throttle hit), but then I noticed a miss when I got back in the pits. Dead hole.

Back to the garage. (sigh)

Re: Resurrecting the Rambler
 

The dead hole turned out to be a pushrod that somehow got out from under it's rocker arm on cylinder 2. Nothing was immediately found to cause this, I pulled the lifter out for a look too and it was all right, so I'll have to watch for this a little closer in the future.

Everything is buttoned back up and we'll go try again soon. Presently making some changes to the fuel system before I go, the pressure was too high. New regulator on the way to replace my ancient used one as it won't adjust down any more.

Re: Resurrecting the Rambler
 

Hang in there, and hopefully they'll all stay together and you'll get that car to make some full runs, so good and solid that the engine will run as if to tell you this was fun, let's do it again!!!! I'm no good with engine work myself, so I thank God for Verle Steven's Enterprises who built my motor back in 1996. The motor was so good that he put together, that I haven't yet had to refreshen it since 1996! I hope all of those parts in your valve train stay together so that you'll have your motor running as it should next time, and everytime thereafter!

Better luck going forward....

Re: Resurrecting the Rambler
 

258's with the bridge style rockers will do this with a Stocker type cam and lifters. ...Especially if the rockers are the newer replacements ,not the OEM's. .... The stock length pushrods are too long due to the amount of material removal on the deck and head to get to the minimums.

....At max lift the pushrod is very near to popping out with a Stocker type lifter with little bleed down .
on Ed Fernandez's Gremlin I used much shorter pushrods with 210 degree tips
The 258 will pull thru 5800-6000 rpm with a Stocker cam and springs
BBD carbs take a little care on adjustment of the metering rod tree and acc. pump but should have very sharp throttle response.
unfortunately the AMX package adds a lot of extra weight on a car that has precious little to remove ,save the seats and factory wiring harness. ....
You can save 15# on the front by using the 4 cyl disc brakes ,but they are hard to find . ......I'm assuming aftermarket brakes are not in the budget .

Re: Resurrecting the Rambler
 

Thanks Tom. Besides adding a new regulator in and getting the fuel pressure back down to 5.5 lbs, I checked into the carb in the areas you mentioned and changed a couple things, and doing that improved the throttle response a lot and allowed me to bring the idle down quite a bit.
As far as the pushrod pop-out issue, I haven't changed any of the block or head geometry from stock yet, pushrods are still the stock length and nothing has been shaved down any on the head or block. I will on the next motor I do though so your advice will work wonders then. The rockers are still the OEM bridged pieces, so I'll just have to watch things and solve it one problem at a time from there. Valve springs might be a touch weak, I didn't go all out on those.

As of right now, the over-weight of the car is somewhat insignificant to me as I'm more interested in getting it to launch and run hard all the way down the track first. Baby steps.