Re: Project - NHRA Stock and S/S results 61-68
 

"...PONTIAC:
The Max Sterling picture is not a 62 Cat 421/405sd.
I think that picture in your writeup is a 61, maybe his previous car?..."

Yeah, he had a '61, a '62, as well as a '71 Bird, all named "White Lightning".

May have had others. But I only have pics of those 3.

Re: Project - NHRA Stock and S/S results 61-68
 

"... I have Proffit driving a Chev at Indy 62, even a pic of his car in the winners circle....so not sure why you thought I listed it as a Pontiac?..."


"...PONTIAC – 1962 421 cui Super Duties were produced in enough numbers to qualify for SS/S.

These 421 cui motors ran 11:1, dual quad carburretors and were rated to 405. The lightweight panels were available to the approved teams and raced in SS/S. Hayden Proffitt proved the cars worth by winning Top Stock at the US Nationals..."

I copied & pasted that from your '62 section.

I assume you meant to say the Winter Nats. But, you said the US Nats. The pic you posted shows a '62 with #670 on it. I assume that was @ the Winter Nats.

Yes, Hayden is mentioned driving the Chevy @ Indy, in other parts of the section. But, you obviously made a little booboo, as shown in the part I copied. Easily fixed.

Re: Project - NHRA Stock and S/S results 61-68
 

Doggone it all this digging, I looked at 1961 again:
https://skunkwerkssuperstock.wordpre...thering-storm/

Another small oops, excusable for a Mopar guy I guess:

The 1961 409 was a single 4v, 360hp.

The top 1962 409 was the Beach Boys "4-speed dual quad positraction 409"
"409 409"
The song actually sings 409/409, inches and HP rating.
The 409/409hp-8v was the 1st DUAL quad 409.

In LATE 62, the 63 service parts (heads & cam IIRC) came out that actually made the 409/409-8v effectively a 409/425hp-8v, even though it kept its 409hp rating.

For 63-64, that same engine became the 409/425hp-8v.

So pretty much every 409 car you saw in 1960s class racing was a 1962 car, with a 409/425hp-8v under the hood (but rated at 1962's 409hp) or a 409/400hp-4v under the hood (but rated at 1962's 380hp)

Not as convoluted as all those Mopar combos (ever count how many 383/330hp engines Mopar had?????) but still complicated.

Of course the Beach Boys song features a real 409 soundtrack.

This is fun stuff, glad the Nostalgia Stock section has some life again.

Re: Project - NHRA Stock and S/S results 61-68
 

From my web site.

Re: Project - NHRA Stock and S/S results 61-68
 

Ive been advised by Raj Reddy who's a Chevy guru that Nicholson ran the dual quad set up, supplied by Chevrolet, at the 61 Nats..before it was commercially available..... hence it was in OS/S , not S/S.

“Mal - They received the dual quad setup and cam August 1961 prior to Indy ‘61 (placing them in OS/S) . Cars ran single four barrel 360 HP at ‘61 Pomona Winternats.“

Re: Project - NHRA Stock and S/S results 61-68
 

Sorry, Ithought you were talking about the tables- not the text. I’ll fix it.

Re: Project - NHRA Stock and S/S results 61-68
 

H/SA=
15.00 in 67
11.50 in 68
11.00 in 69
10.50 in 70-71

The 327/285hp 67 Bird has W/P=11.23 with Auto
So I'd guess 1969 H/SA=11.00 class
But then there's the 400 hood:

I dont see how a 67 Bird would fit in A/SA, ever, unless maybe in goofy 1972 when A/SA=9.00 class.
Then a 400 RA1 factored to 360hp would fit, W/P=9.01

Do you know what book/page that picture is from?

Re: Project - NHRA Stock and S/S results 61-68
 

"...Do you know what book/page that picture is from?..."

SS book p.137

Here's a couple more pics from the SS book.

#1 is a '64 GTO which was running in the AHRA F2 B/S class.

#2 is the Royal '66 C/S GTO, which ran the quickest ET in C/S, @ the '66 Winter Nats, but got a DQ because NHRA hadn't OK'd the factory RA set-up.

Re: Project - NHRA Stock and S/S results 61-68
 

NHRA wisely started OS/S for that reason, too many "trunk & parts counter" combos coming out. The 390/401-6v Ford & 421/373-8v Pontiac got the same treatment, bumped into OS/S.

Very few 409s period were made in 1961, about 160 or so IIRC - let alone a dual quad version. Usually on the street it was the 348 Chevy that met the 390 Ford.

Was Nicholson the OS/S R/U at 61 Indy with that car or dont we know?

Re: Project - NHRA Stock and S/S results 61-68
 

OK found it, forgot about that color section.
Looks like that picture has to be 1967, the only year that Sox's RO23 car ran in SS/B=7.00-7.69 class.

That means that for the 67 Bird:
A/SA=8.70-9.49 and
H/SA=15.00-15.59 not likely. No 67 Bird even fits in there.

But if the Bird is in A/SA, what does that mean?
3244/325=9.98 unfactored, doesnt fit A/SA=8.70-9.49 class.
3244/360=9.01 if the RA1 was factored to the GTO's 360hp already.

That factoring to 360hp could put a RA1 Bird into A/SA=8.70-9.49 class in 1967.
OK, sounds good.

But it presents another problem:
Tony Knieper ran a 67 Bird RA1 in SS/FA=9.50 at 68 Pomona.
How'd he do THAT then?
Unless it wasnt run as a RA1 car.
A base car fits SS/FA=9.50
3244/325=9.98
But the link below says RA1.
If we use the above logic and factor the RA1 to 360hp then
3244/360=9.01
That bumps the Knieper car from SS/FA=9.50 to SS/EA=8.70 class, but it ran in SS/FA=9.50 class.
So it had to have an NHRA rating of way less than 360hp, like 340hp or less. Would the RA1 Bird be factored to 360hp in 1967, then DOWN to 340hp in 1968, then back UP to 360hp for late 1968? Sounds unlikely.


Unless it wasnt run as a RA1 when it was R/U in SS/FA=9.50 class at 68 Pomona?
Since you're a Pontiac guy, here's the link!

https://www.hotrodders.com/threads/6...holder.144313/

Confusing story. Any ideas?

Re: Project - NHRA Stock and S/S results 61-68
 

"...Was Nicholson the OS/S R/U at 61 Indy with that car or dont we know?..."

In the Jr. Stock book, on p.14, it says that Proffitt "buried" Dave Strickler's 409...with an astounding 12.55. I suppose that means that Strickler was RU. Not sure. Could have been in an earlier round, I suppose.

One of the books says that Arnie Beswick won S/S. Don't mention the RU. Maybe that's the year Stan Antlocer was RU, in S/S. :confused:

Re: Project - NHRA Stock and S/S results 61-68
 

"...Any ideas?"

Yeah, I'll take a shot at it.

The 325hp 400 in a '67 Bird could come with, or without Ram Air.

Looks like the RA version has a higher NHRA hp factor. The current factor for SS looks to still be 360hp.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...5&MAKE=Pontiac

So, I'd say that if the Stocker was running class A, it was running RA, & the SS Bird was not running RA. Hey, that's my opinion & I'm stickin to it.....unless I find out I'm wrong. :D

"...Unless it wasnt run as a RA1 when it was R/U in SS/FA=9.50 class at 68 Pomona?..."

All he had to do was plug up the open scoops & run without the RA system.

The lower pic is a close-up of the scoop of the 1st Bird. Looks closed & painted black, to me. The Myrtle Bird is marked SS/EA. Assume it was running RA. OR, it may have just been a different year. No clue.

Re: Project - NHRA Stock and S/S results 61-68
 

"All he had to do was plug up the open scoops & run without the RA system.

The lower pic is a close-up of the scoop of the 1st Bird. Looks closed & painted black, to me"

Great find on that picture. Not definitive but scoop sure LOOKS blocked.
And that's consistent with the 67 Bird RA1 in A/SA=8.70 class in 1967, and later 68 race year cars that only fit when factored to 360hp.

So I'm concluding:
* The RA1 was factored to the GTO's 360hp from 1967-71 at least.
* Knieper's car, though bought new as a RA1 car, just had the hood blocked when converted to SS/FA and ran at the base 325hp rating (or even the 335hp GTO Base rating, same class either way)

Re: Project - NHRA Stock and S/S results 61-68
 

Guys, just a side. note. - Don’t think I’m being ‘defensive’......

I was taught to explain my rationale...and fix my errors.

Sometimes my errors become a little overwhelming however...and large posts detailing a lot of ‘issues’ create a lot of workload.

That said, I really appreciate the help...just trust my research and point out the glaring errors 😆

Re: Project - NHRA Stock and S/S results 61-68
 

Ive stolen the 2nd pic mate - check my 1966 web page under ‘Disquals’.

https://skunkwerkssuperstock.wordpre...-for-the-fans/

Re: Project - NHRA Stock and S/S results 61-68
 

"...point out the glaring errors..."

Don't know if that's a serious statement or just a little humor.

If it's serious, I'll have to say this: What's "glaring" to some, may be very minor, & not worth mentioning to others.

This is especially true for guys that are very familiar with a particular car brand.

For example: When you say stuff about Fords, Mopars, AMC, Olds, & Buick, most of the time, I wouldn't know if what you were saying is so, or not. I have never bothered to learn hardly anything about the details of those cars.

But, although I'm NOT a Pontiac expert, I HAVE read about, owned, raced, & wrenched on quite a few Pontiacs, since around 1964, when I first began reading about the new GTO.

As I mentioned, most Pontiac guys call the Pontiac 3-carb set-up "Tri-Power". Others may call it "3-deuces", of "trips", or "3 x 2", or whatever.

Since Chevy guys, and many others are familiar with "small block" & Big Block" Chevy engines, lots of 'em will ask a Pontiac guy if he's running a "Big Block" in his Pontiac. That usually means a 455, or maybe a 428. Those guys might consider a 400 Pontiac engine a small block. OR, some might only consider 350 & smaller Pontiac engines as small blocks. But, since most Pontiac V8's are basically the same size on the outside, Pontiac guys don't call 'em Big or small blocks, and lots of Pontiac guys will let you know about it if you refer to a Pontiac engine as a Big or small block. Some Pontiac guys are really mean about it, especially online.

As for Mopars, I know only the very basics, such as that some of the popular race engines were 340's, 360's, 383's, 413's, 426 Wedge, 426 Street Hemi, 426 Race Hemi, & 440. I know the names of a few of the car models, but can't pick all of 'em out, by just lookin at pictures. Haven't bothered to learn any more about 'em than that, & probably won't. Same goes for the other brands.

But, I'm always open to learn more about Pontiac V8 powered drag cars. And, when I see something like a Pontiac round port head being called an "oval" port, it just automatically triggers something inside that says that don't sound right. Does it really make a big difference ? NO ! Although an oval isn't perfectly round, some ovals can be almost round.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oval

I suppose it's not that calling something by a wrong name is anything bad, or anything that really makes much difference, but rather it's that it makes the one who used the wrong word or term seem like they are not very knowledgeable about that particular part or subject. So, I suppose the bottom line is: If you wanna sound like you really know about something, always use the correct words or terminology, when talking about or describing something. That way, people will think you really know what your talkin about & will be more likely to believe what you say.

Example: When a guy begins the conversation asking if your Pontiac engine is a "Big Block", my 1st thought is that this guy knows very little to nothing about Pontiacs. Same would go for someone reading a book. If the author uses the wrong terminology, most readers will assume the author don't know much about that particular subject.

In your case, you don't really need to know about all the different brands of cars & the exact terminology for each brand's equipment. But, the more correct terminology you use, the more informed you'll seem, to the reader.

Therefore, if I was the author, I'd wanna get all the terminology correct, even if I never planned to learn all the details of all the different brands. So, with this in mind, if I discovered mistakes I'd made, no matter how minor, & could correct those mistakes, I'd welcome the opportunity.

Some might call that a perfectionist attitude. Well, whatever. LOTS of times I'll see mistakes I made & overlooked in a post I made. Even though the mistake is very minor & everybody reading the post will know what I meant, I'll usually edit & correct the mistake. One forum I'm on only gives you 1 hour to edit a post. I've found mistakes after that 1-hour limit. Some were so bad that I made a 2nd post, in order to point out the mistake & post the corrected info.

But, I've noticed that LOTS of guys just let their obvious posted mistakes go. Maybe those folks are just a lot busier than me & don't have time to proofread & edit posts. Then I suppose their are some who just don't care, especially if they think others will know what they meant to say.

Buy hey, I appreciate all the research you guys have done, to put all this info together !

THANKS ! :)

"...Ive stolen the 2nd pic mate..."

I got it out of the SS book.

Re: Project - NHRA Stock and S/S results 61-68
 

OS- relax....some friendly banter....I’m trying to explain that 300 word responses are just too much for me to wade through.......Id much prefer a ‘ You said this, I think this’ interaction. 😉

Re: Project - NHRA Stock and S/S results 61-68
 

can do short

but without explanation, some are offended

Re: Project - NHRA Stock and S/S results 61-68
 

If I disagree, or need more, I’ll explain why. 👍

Re: Project - NHRA Stock and S/S results 61-68
 

OK, re the Ben Wolfe car - can you both give me your ‘best guess’..and why ( meets class, correct year etc) .......I kinda got lost in the discussion -

Re: Project - NHRA Stock and S/S results 61-68
 

if pontiac, was bird, imo

Re: Project - NHRA Stock and S/S results 61-68
 

I thought of a RA4 factored up past its 380hp factoring circa 1970 but that doesnt work because other cars show the RA4 was factored at 380hp since it hit the strip in early 1969.

So the only possible Pontiac that fits is a 68 Bird RA2, factored to 390hp.
I have no basis for that factor other than it makes the car fit.
3300/390=8.46
Any factor less than 390hp will knock the car down into C/SA=8.50 class.

Why would the RA2 be factored to 390hp when the RA4 was only factored at 380hp? Hard to explain.

So if we have to guess a Pontiac, its either a 68 Bird RA2 factored at 390hp or maybe a RA5? LOL but we're getting desperate here.

Or it was a 67 Comet 427/410 and somebody thought it was a Pontiac?

Re: Project - NHRA Stock and S/S results 61-68
 

Lets say that was the case. Would someone really build a car for that class @ 8.46? :confused: I don't think so. IMO that looks like someone built a car for the 8.50 class and ran really good and got HP that moved them up a class.

Stan


PS the RAV was a small displacement engine for Trans AM like the Z28. I don't think enough were built for it to be NHRA legal.

Re: Project - NHRA Stock and S/S results 61-68
 

Agreed on both counts.
The RA2 did run good though so I couldnt rule that out - an over-factored RA2 that ran good even bumped up to B/SA=8.00.

In 1971, Fields' RA2 Bird set the D/S=8.50 record at
11.78 at 119.52
That was a stick car but even make it .2 and 2mph slower for an auto, it's still a winnable combo even up in B/SA=8.00 class of 1969.

That's just the only PONTIAC that even might fit.
If not, then I'm with oldskool, probably not a Pontiac at all.

Re: Project - NHRA Stock and S/S results 61-68
 

IF all the info you have from back during that time period is correct, then:

(1) What year could the '68 Bird I posted a pic of have run B/SA ? :confused:

(2) What year could the '69 "Hatari" Bird have run B/SA ? :confused:

Both obviously DID run B/SA, at least 1 year, at least at 1 track, under some sanctioning body.

When ? :confused:

Re: Project - NHRA Stock and S/S results 61-68
 

B/SA=
8.50 in 1968
8.00 in 1969
7.50 in 1970-71
???? 1972
8.50 in 1973-up
So I'd guess those pictures were either 1968 or 1973-up.

But again, I dont KNOW the RA2 "factor" - I had guessed about 375hp prior to this strange Ben Wolf car. That 375hp fits all the other RA2 cars, Fields etc, that I can find. But 375hp wont put Ben Wolf in B/SA=8.00.

I'm with you, starting to think the Ben Wolf car just wasnt a Pontiac.
An L72 Chevelle300 fits (easily mistaken for a GTO LOL) or an L72 Nova is a perfect fit (easily mistaken for a Firebird LOL).
We just dont know WHAT the Ben Wolf B/SA=8.00 car is.

Re: Project - NHRA Stock and S/S results 61-68
 

OK gentlemen, thank you for your efforts- I mark it as ‘Firebird ?’ and leave it at that. Its starting to haunt me! 😆

Re: Project - NHRA Stock and S/S results 61-68
 

DC - Ive started a fire I need to put out on FB.

Re your 69 Stick results sheet. - It seems the SS/E class for L72 Camaros is just out of whack....when 396 Novas ran in SS/D.

So it raises some questions....

Was the SS/C 69 Camaro of Jenkins actually a 396/375.....or even an L72 - The ZL1suggestion has everyone in a froth! 😆

Further - if Olster ran an L72, what class would it have fit?

Re: Project - NHRA Stock and S/S results 61-68
 

"...B/SA=
8.50 in 1968
8.00 in 1969..."

That solves the '68 B/SA pic, for me. Dealers usually ran the cars while they were still the current model year.

According to my math, using an online calculator, a factor of at least 391hp would have been needed to put a '69 Bird into class B. S0, anything from 391 thru 414 would put it into B. 415 would put it into A, & 390 would put it into C, IF my calculations are correct.

So, could it have possibly been 395, 400, 405, or 410, in '69, maybe ?

Re: Project - NHRA Stock and S/S results 61-68
 

OK I will try to get a new account there even though Zuck's customer service is non existent.

Is there a Facebook group where all this excitement is happening?

Re: Project - NHRA Stock and S/S results 61-68
 

Yes that's the right track. I dont KNOW for sure what the RA2 was factored to, so in theory it could be up there.

The RA4 was factored to 380hp, so unless there was a special RA4 factor for just the 69 Firebird (not likely back then) I'd rule that one out.

When I look at where the RA4 GTO's ran, their RA4 had to be factored to 380hp, maybe 385hp but no more than that, and Dwight S said 380hp on the other thread.

So I'm still betting Ben Wolf was a really high factored RA2, or a Chevelle300 or Nova L72 car (1969 was the 1st year for auto trans for the L72). Just dont know.

Re: Project - NHRA Stock and S/S results 61-68
 

DC....Its OK, I put it out. A guy had difficulty believing the L72 Camaro could be in SS/E.

In fact, its right on the line btwn SS/D and SS/E (7.56). When I pointed out the SS/C ZL1 was at 6.51..he started to realise how little separates the classes.

As an additional ‘win’, I was able to show how the 396 68 Nova met SS/D in 68, but slipped to SS/E in 69.....due to weight break changes.


I think a lot of people struggle with the concept of a 396 Nova racing an L72 Camaro....but the weight breaks don’t lie....just shows what a pig that L72 motor was!

But seriously......your sheets are invaluable....good job!!

Re: Project - NHRA Stock and S/S results 61-68
 

"...Dwight S said 380hp on the other thread..."

Maybe it was 380 at the beginning of the season, then increased later in the season. That could make it possible that a '69 Bird could have run C/SA at the Winter Nats, then B/SA at a later '69 season race.

Maybe the Phil Monteith '69 Bird ran B/SA at either an AHRA or IHRA track. Or maybe that pic was taken in a later year. Or ?

It's possible that not a single Pontiac combo ran NHRA B/SA, in '69. Not sure.

Was a '69 RAIV Bird available early enuff in '68 to make some of the late season races ?

Re: Project - NHRA Stock and S/S results 61-68
 

Dwight said the RA2=385hp factored by NHRA, which still puts the RA2 Firebird at
3300/385=8.57 or C/SA=8.50 in 1969

I think the RA4 was at 380hp all thru because there are RA4 cars in the wins/records from early 1969 thru late 1970 that all fit 380hp.

So my bets for the Ben Wolf car:
69 Chevelle300 L72
69 Nova L72
67 Comet 427-4v
64 Belvedere MaxWedge
Those all fit B/SA=8.00.
I guess you could mistake those 4 cars for Pontiacs but it'd have to be pretty dark.

Re: Project - NHRA Stock and S/S results 61-68
 

Now THAT is funny! 😆😆

Re: Project - NHRA Stock and S/S results 61-68
 

"...Dwight said the RA2=385hp factored by NHRA...

I think the RA4 was at 380hp all thru because there are RA4 cars in the wins/records from early 1969 thru late 1970 that all fit 380hp..."

I find that REAL interesting.

WHY ? :confused:

Because the '69 RA4 had the same cam, BUT, the RA4 used 1.65 ratio rockers, whereas the RA2 only had 1.5 rockers. This gave that engine more valve lift & more effective duration, which HAD to produce more power.

THEREFORE, why would NHRA actually rate the RA2 engine higher ? Don't make any common sense.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...3&MAKE=Pontiac

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...2&MAKE=Pontiac

Don't think it actually increased power output, but the RA4 also had an alum intake. Seems that NHRA would have taken this into consideration & initially given the RA4 a slightly higher hp factor. or at the very least, the same as the RA2. Can't think of a single reason to rate the RA4 LESS than the RA2.

The answer to WHY, would be very interesting to me.

AND, after a few '69 Judge Stockers began setting records & winning class at some races, seems that NHRA would have taken another look at the RA4 engine & upped the hp factor.

"...???? 1972..."

Yeah, I think I posted a pic of Truman Fields running A/S @ the Summer Nats, in '72. So, that was a special year. Seems that Stock had sort of "Pure Stock" rules that year. I suppose the weight breaks were different, which caused Truman's Bird to run A/S. He even set an A/S record.

http://classracer.com/classforum/showthread.php?t=51198

Then, '73 was the year Truman won Stock @ Indy, running C/S. Then, in '77, Mike McKinney won Stock @ Indy, running that same car, in B/S. Lots of rules changes back in those days.

Pic #7 shows Truman running in D/S. Don't know what year that was.

He ran '68 Birds with several different paint schemes. Pic #8 shows one of 'em, with B/S on it. Also have a pic of it that color, running C/S.

Pic #9 shows a Burgundy color he ran, in D/S. So, these pics show Truman Birds in 3 color schemes & 4 different classes. He also moved several times, as noted by the different perm numbers.

Re: Project - NHRA Stock and S/S results 61-68
 

Well, the Wolfe car will have to remain a mystery - Ive put the RA2 in my web site....with a question mark.

I think the most likely thing we’ve uncovered is he was probably part of the Wolfe & McClelland team.....that does seem to make sense.

Re: Project - NHRA Stock and S/S results 61-68
 

"...Ive put the RA2 in my web site....with a question mark..."

can't prove it was or wasn't

Re: Project - NHRA Stock and S/S results 61-68
 

OS - I figured going on available info- We have some confirmation of it being a Pontiac, and RA2 Firechicken is about the best fit....so happy to have it as a ‘possible’.

Now I have to re-visit some of the other info thats been raised and correct it.

Re: Project - NHRA Stock and S/S results 61-68
 

DC - Was the 396/375hp Chevy motor re-factored in1968 to 425 hp? I seem to recall you saying it was?