Re: Update E-F/SA Bird Build...
 

Yeah... Gillespie says he has a couple...i have yet to call him...but im gonna... tryin to save my pennies and nickels...Im sure its costing me...and im sure my cam is a little mild at 251/256* , and using std lifters and 160#/340# springs.

Re: Update E-F/SA Bird Build...
 

Pic from last Saturday... low 11.50s and an 11.493 , at the end of the eve....went 5 rounds....

https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.n...58b4c15eaa688a

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Good show Brent! We are headed to Music City Raceway tm for a try at another final...tough crowd up in Nashville. :)

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Looks great man, keep enjoying it.
Chris

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Ive ran there... good track... its been since 2007, since i was there... ran the Thanksgiving deal that year...went 2 rounds on Friday, and 3 on Saturday...think it rained on Sunday. Didnt get to race today...COLD! and Windy! So, i stayed home and worked on organization ...

Re: Update E-F/SA Bird Build...
 

new best, last night... it was cool out, for sure... I fattened it up a bit, and it responded fairly well...just not seeing any real MPH gains, when ET picks up...
Ive went from 11.60 to 11.44 and have only seen .5 mph gain...Im thinkin im overgeared, just a tad... Thinkin about the 4.30 back in, and short radial...that is a compromise between the 4.56 and tall radial...what do you think?
Im trapping at 6300, now... It may trap just as much with 4.30 and short radial...i dont know. I went from .048s to .045 to .041 rods last night... fastest pass(this ticket) was with the .045s, but i think humidity was really coming in, when i went to .041s, but still managed an 11.448/115.05 with 1.520 60'. Gonna have to let go of some $, if i want to run any faster... Cam/valvetrain or trans... Im pretty happy with it, for the parts that are there, and the $ I've spent... Very low budget deal, compared to most, and it shows...hehe

https://scontent-a-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/...a9&oe=54B382EA
https://scontent-a-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/...38&oe=54B54FB9

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Our cars are nearly identical in performance Brent, but your mph is always higher. I bet a metric 200 tranny installed in yours would be a solid gain.

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I will do something with the trans next year...Not sure if i will go with a 200, or a tricked out 350...i want reliability, since im not worried about any class wins...
And will have to go with more duration on the cam...im in at 251/256, with a soft ramp... Im sure thats where alot of my performance is goin...

My mph is better, most likely cause i have less gear and a tad more HP and torque. Im surprised that im not getting more MPH out of it... I was hoping for 117, atleast...Not expecting much more than that...for now....

Re: Update E-F/SA Bird Build...
 

Our spat with breakage was due to mis-matched motor mounts, not any weakness in transmissions. From my limited experience I would bet a minimum of a tenth reduction in et with no reliability issues. Nearly everyone in these parts run the 200 now and most are seriously quicker than our car. You need to talk to Thomas Arnett in KY if you decide to make the change...best fellow I have ever dealt with and a Stock racer himself. Here is a pic of his bad to the bone A/SA Camaro which uses the same 200 metric he builds for everyone else...

http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/q...psd4812152.jpg

Btw, what do you think of this truck I'm eyeballing? It's a '85 Dodge with a late model Turbo Cummings and 5-speed.

http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/q...ps4650f9d7.jpg

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Hey guys does Thomas Arnett have a E-mail? I tried to contact him through IM but no answer and do you have a P#? Thanks

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Arnette's Garage & Racing

4552 Us Highway 62 West
Greenville, KY 42345 - View Map
Phone: (270) 338-6325

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Yeah, phone is best early mornings. He will do email some but doesnt like it much hehe.

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Cummins is the way to go... Loads of torque and pretty good mpg...

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Hey y'all... had a decent weekend at Muncie, last Saturday... went 4 rounds, i had to buy back this time, though..after goin -.006 red 1st round:rolleyes:... My driving came back around, but i took too much stripe, and lost a close one , in the 4th round. I had a new best 60' 1.516, mostly due to the good air, and 11.440 again. Car has 72 passes on it now...its a good solid race car...would like to pick it up next year, a bit...we will have to see where im at , $ wise...

https://scontent-b-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/...76&oe=54F74DB9

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Well, after a disappointing weekend at INDY(missed my dial, took stripe by a football field) , i ran Muncie this past weekend. Decided to enter PRO and SPortsman, since it was the last weekend of the season. I had an awesome night... Went 4 rounds in Pro, with no buy back, and beat the points champ(see timeslip) 2nd round... she is a badass, by the way. In Sportsman, i lost 1st round, but bought back, to lose in the 5th round...lost my mojo, after 9 rounds! Car was running great , with a best 60 ft time, so far, of 1.509. Engine has over 80 runs on it, and its still slow...hehe, but reliable. She is put up for the Winter...dont know what, or any, upgrades i will do. Nothing is free, and it needs tires, on all four corners. I hope to do a light 350 trans for it, or buy a good used one. Here is the ET slip from 2nd round pro, and a pic from Indy , Oct 19th...

[IMG]https://scontent-a-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/...64&oe=54F35934

https://scontent-a-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/...cc&oe=54EF8730

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Brent, great way to close out the season and to build on it in the spring:D

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Thanks... i was having a blast and was good to put car away , after winning several rounds... Im happy with the way the car did, this year... very small budget, went into this engine/trans combo...

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Excellent driving there Brent. :cool:

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thanks Rich... hehe... I knew i had to go big , or go home... I would like to do that every time, but it aint happening... :rolleyes:

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Update on the Bird... finally decided to remove the heater box, and gonna remove radio too...and will install factory style delete plates... Hoping to go with aluminum radiator, as well. Figured i'd better do it, now, or I wouldnt ever do it...hehe

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Hi Brent. I'm not new by any means, but new to the site. Just joined today. But I've been reading some stuff on here for a while. Your Bird build thread caught my eye, cause we use to run a '68 E/SA. But back then, they were about 2 seconds slower than the top cars are today.

I'm trying to piece together what has changed to make these cars so much quicker now. I've seen some of the rule changes, like forged rods and pistons.

And the cams that are allowed now are really radical compared to the Lunati we ran. I see from your build that you are running a converter with over 4000 stall. With our cam a 3000 was plenty.

Anyhow I have a lot of questions about your build and the current rules and such. Since racing season is over, I was hoping you may have time to share some info with me.

But I realize that most guys are busy and some don't like to share with strangers. So, if you'd rather not do it, I understand completely and have no hard feelings.

If you'd rather not, then could you possibly recommend one or more Pontiac guys on here that might be willing to share some Stock class info with me. I don't need any super secret stuff, just the basics it takes to get a Pontiac Stocker to run just barely under it's index.

Hey, thanks for listening. And congrats on your progress so far. :)

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My build is pretty basic, with some attention paid to detail... if it werent, there is no way that the stuff that i have would run under the index at all...hehe

I dont mind posting what i have, since im not worried at all about class runoff's or heads up races. I wont see a National event, unless it would be Norwalk. Indy is out of the question, since im not running atleast .9 under. If anything, itll show people that you dont need to spend 10k to run under. I did build it myself and did some of the prep myself, so that saved some money.
Hope this gives you some insight:

I have a set of used Venolia #400 pistons +.040 over. Stocker torque plate hone, back cut 2nd ring, low tension oil rings, Eagle rods(chevy ends) 6.635( legal), Harts in Cecil Ohio did my crank, .013 offset ground, pistons down .005 in the hole, Running the race chevy rod bearing, full groove mains, clearances .0035, 60LB pump, crank scraper, no tray, factory baffled pan, with plate welded on rear, so oil wont climb it on launch. Cam is .424/.424 251/256* on 108LSA, in at 105 ICL... heads are down to 65cc with good valve grind, 45* seats, Ferrea Valves and COmp springs 160/340 at 1.675 I.H.

As far as the converter goes, Stockers nowadays need lots of converter, since we allowed to run durations, similar to small roller cams...Im actually pretty happy with the way the engine performed this year, as it really doesnt have crazy valvetrain components, such as limited travel lifters, or ceramics, for that matter, and not running crazy spring pressures(yet), and a really mild cam, as far as Stockers go. Wanted to keep things sort of simple, just to get the car out on the track with a new combo and make lots of passes. 91 on it so far. Gonna step it up a bit, next season, with 2.75 low gear, light drum, well prepped 350 trans, bigger cam, more spring pressure, limited travel lifters, and most likely more stall speed. I hope to see some sub 11.20 passes by seasons' end. I wont make all the changes at once...


My chassis is proven, and dialed in with a 10.80 bracket engine, so i wasnt fighting the gremlins, there. Also would like to add, i've been given alot of valuable advice, along the way, by some fellow Pontiac Stocker racers, and Chevy guys, too... I figured everyone would be alot more secretive, but found that everyone is willing to help, where they can. I , as much as anyone, would hate to see this side of the sport die out...I imagine that is part of their motivation...Without their help, i may have not run .26 under , my 1st attempt..

Re: Update E-F/SA Bird Build...
 

Good luck this year Brent. A lot of the advances in ET are the tires. The radials of today are as good as the old 14-32's of the 80's.
Looking forward to seeing you at Indy. Bob M.

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Yea, tires are a huge improvement... Who woulda thought that there would be 8 second Stockers , on 9'' tires, 30yrs ago? Yep, i plan on Indy...i probably wont have made many changes to the car, but i hope to be there! I may have trans swapped by then, but not sure... Lookin forward to seeing you Bob, and everyone else!

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Brent, thanks for sharing that info !

I noticed you got an 8hp hit. :( I think that's the 1st one for that combo, ever. I know it was 330 in the mid '70's. Is the change enuff to affect you at all ? Will you have to add a little weight or make any other changes ? :)

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Yeah, i think that deal adds about 80lbs to the car ... thanks to a certain guy from California...hehe

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Well, you've heard the saying, "Inquiring minds want to know."

So I'd really like to know. I've noticed that some engine builders called Parsons and Meyers, have built the engines for a lot of the quicker Pontiac Stockers. So they obviously build better Pontiac Stocker engines than most.

So, with this in mind I'd like to know about how much one of their 400 Stocker engines would cost. I know, "If you have to ask you can't afford it." I'm not planning to buy one, but I am curious about the price of one.

I mean, in general terms, are we talking 10, 15, 20 thousand ? Or ? I tried to Google up their website. I reckin they don't have one. Must be busy building engines and don't have time to waste online.

Since you built your own, I figure you checked on the price of a store bought one, so you would know how much you could save by doing it yourself.

But hey, if this is top secret info, I'll just let it go. :)

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I only have a shade over 4k in mine...keep in mind, the pistons and rods were used, and got a smokin' deal on them... I've heard prices ranging from 10-15k for a competitive class winning engine( like mine), not a new Hemi...hehe...
Two reasons i did not go that route... 1) Want to build my own stuff, and learn what i can from it, even if its not the fastest thing on the planet. 2) I cant afford a big money deal, so, winning heads up races are not part of my plan, anytime soon.
There are not too many 'young' guys(im 45) starting in Stock, unless they were born into a family that races Stock, or they have fat wallets. Im neither, so i have to do it slowly. But, it doesnt deter me from trying it... Making factory parts go fast is a challenge...anyone can build a Jegs bracket car...ive done it, and dont really enjoy it as much. Luckily i didnt cut my car up, as ive had it for 27 years, and Stock was always my goal. I just finally got around to it.
I would, however, like to send a set of heads to a known Stock guy, and get a real good set done, but that is a good 2-3k, and that wont happen soon... I believe with some tweaking, i can see some 11teens with the stuff im gonna do this season... Meanwhile, im gonna run the crap out of it...hehe

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Since the stock heads can't be ported, and some are better than others, do you know if the top guys, running the 330hp engine, gather up lots of 16 & 62 heads and check 'em on a flow bench to find the best ones ? :)

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Yeah, i would imagine so... i wanted to do that, since i have 4 pair...i will eventually do that..i have 3 intakes as well...

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while the cam is swapped out, check ring drag with torque wrench on crank. getting to 11lb. helped mine. some are a lot lower, but with vac-u-pan setups. higher spring press. needs 3/8 pushrods, 4-4 1/2 qts. in the oil pan helps. Be sure you are getting max. legal valve lift.

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When i assembled it, it took 14lb to break it loose, with rope seal... considering that i dont have a real high dollar ring package, thats probably pretty good... it has surely loosened up some, with 91 passes on it.
I think i will see a major gain, in cam swap, and loosening converter, also goin to a lightened 350 turbo. Gonna try to have all this done by mid season, or before. I run 5 qts oil...little too scared to run any less... I blow this one up, im done...hehe I hope to gain some HP in headwork , next winter...Just doin the cam/trans/converter this year...and running the crap out of it...:D

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This mention of oil reminded me of the HPP mag article about Scott Burton's B/SA RA4 Bird. He said that he runs 0-10W oil. I didn't even know they made oil that thin. He claims that the thin oil and a crank scraper, instead of a windage tray, is good for as much as a tenth.

I was wondering if most class racers are using restricted pushrods to keep too much oil from accumulating in the top end. Back in the old days, we just put pipe cleaners in the pushrods and went racing. :D I reckin if you can get just the right combo of oil thickness and pushrod hole size, you can get enuff oil to the top, but also keep more in the pan, so that you could actually get by with a bit less oil. But hey, I'm no expert. It just sounds reasonable. :)

http://www.hotrod.com/cars/featured/...tiac-firebird/

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Ok.... I have way too much cash under my hood to try to squeeze a bit of ET out of...oil... I'll leave this to others. Frankly, I'd rather load up than blow up.

Dale

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Yeah, I always ran 50W Valvoline and 70-80psi pressure in my 455 bracket engines--never lost one.

But Scott seems to be doing OK with his thin oil. He's won some big races and has qualified well at most of the events he's entered. :)

http://www.knfilters.com/News/print.aspx?id=3432

http://classracer.com/classforum/showthread.php?t=53555

http://www.nhra.com/story/2014/10/1/...ortsnationals/

He went .977 under at Indy.

http://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCSt...r2014#indextop

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There is a time and place for running thin oil. I tend to run 30W Brad Penn oil for most runs. When I was at Indy this I went to the thin oil to get in to the show. The thinner oil and less of it is worth power. If you get a heads up or trying to make a show this is when you will try it. If you are a competitive racer, you will take chances at times. For me Indy was an awful long ride home not to to pull out all the stops

When you make all of your runs in the same day, running 50W is ok. To heavy if you ask me, If your trying to dial day to day, it is hard to keep the oil temp consistent. Everybody has their limits.

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There has to be some validity to the thinner oil weights overall. Nascar engine builders put way more time and effort into research and actual use of products as well as methods than most ever will. I believe in real world results and won't discount anything without concrete evidence contrary.

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Rich,
When you have some time to read, give this a look see. It completely changed my thinking on the subject.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/motor-oil-101/

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But given your progress on that Mustang I doubt you have ANY reading time. Nice work.

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I'm new to the site, so there are a LOT of things I don't understand about it yet. So if this seems to be another dummy question, ya'll will just have to forgive me, OK ?

I understand that there are far more Chevy racers than probably all others combined. But I just noticed that the BB Camaro build, with only 20 posts and just over 4,000 views has got a 5 star rating. But this thread, which has over 200 posts and nearly 46,000 views, don't even have a 1 star rating. :(

Is it because the car is a Pontiac, instead of a Chevy ? Or maybe because it's a budget build ? I think this is a GREAT thread and definitely deserves 5 stars, if any do.

Hey, ya'll, don't hate me cause I love Pontiacs, OK ? :D