Re: Update E-F/SA Bird Build...
 

Ratings are based on individuals making the effor to rank a thread. Most of us don't pay any attention to the rankings. Any thread I read is important.

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Brett's thread is very popular....I check it all the time. :) My own build is much the same as his...pecking away little by little. As far as the ratings (stars), most probably don't know that you can add rating 'stars' to a particular post topic (thread) just by clicking on the 'rating' tab in the upper right.

I just gave him 5 stars. :) -Al

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thanks ! :)

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Thanks Guys...i didnt even know you could rate it...hehe
You'll all be interested to know, ive got a bigger cam, and goin to light 350 Trans... Converter may get restalled, as well...but , may try it 1st. goin to a 266/272, over the little 251/256 that i have now... Im hoping that some weight management, the aforementioned changes, and some super tuning, will get me into the 11.teens, this season...

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Hi Brent,
Just a quick question. The #'s on those cams, adv. or @ .050 ?

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I think he's off the air for the night. But I can answer that these are definitely the duration numbers @ .050 lift. These Stocker cams today are WILD !

If I understand the rules correctly, all you have to do is stay under the NHRA max lift for your engine. The duration you run is up to you, within the physical limits that a lobe can be ground and still allow a lifter to follow it. :eek: And there's no limit on spring pressures.

The rules have really changed since we ran Stock. Today's Stockers are going quicker than the Super Stockers did back then.

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Thanks oldskool. I have a stocker myself. My cam has 250 @ .050 but I have yet to run the # with it. I was asking because that 272 # threw me.

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Our current Bullet cam is 264/272...considering a smaller cam with different timing events.

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Yeah, numbers like that were unheard of(at least by me) back in the old days, for hyd flat tappet cams.

I assume that now, you can call the cam grinders that do Stocker cams, with your max lift number, and they can tell you how much duration they can grind without exceeding that lift. And they can probably tell you exactly how much spring pressure will be required to keep the lifters on the lobes, at any given rpm. They probably have computer programs that will figure all this and show you a diagram of the lobe with all the info printed out for you.

Then it's up to you to figure out how much duration will make your combo run the quickest. These cams are probably not cheap. So you wouldn't want to have to try a bunch of 'em to get the right one. :(

Some like to keep their cam specs secret. Others don't mind telling. Scott Burton gave the specs of the cam, lifters and springs he was running at the time this HPP article was written. His exhaust duration was also 272, but his max lift is .538. So this is a very healthy cam. The article said he has run a 10.17 in B/SA. :)

"...Manley Drag Race Triple valvesprings measuring 270-lb/in on the seat and 470-lb/in open.

The valvetrain is actuated by a Bullet hydraulic flat-tappet cam (268/272-degrees duration at 0.050, 110- degree LSA), which Burton advanced 2 degrees. He uses Shubeck ceramic puck lifters on the cam. Lift is 0.538/0.538 per NHRA rules..."

Don't think they make those lifters any more. And he is probably using a different grind cam by now.

Hey, I'm not trying to hijack the thread. If ya'll think this is out of order, let me know and I'll delete it. :)

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oldskool: The stocker cams are still fairly inexpensive, provided you don't get into the enlarged journal stuff. Nitriding will add a 'c' note. The Schbeck ceramic puck lifters are now mfgd. by Smith Machine...lots of people use those. Very good non-ceramic lifters tool streel are available from Trend, PPPC and others. Another good one that won't break the bank are the modified Delphi lifters that have the bonded steel foot. Valve springs and valve train weight are big considerations....you cam mfg can get you steered in the right direction. -Al

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Well, I'll just go ahead and plead ignorant, and admit my dummy status. :o I Googled Smith Machine, Trend and PPPC and didn't see any business that looked like they would be a seller of lifters. I did find some cheap Delphi lifters on Ebay. Don't think that's the Stocker lifters that were mentioned. One source said the Delphi lifters are made by Johnson.

So, would somebody please have mercy on an old guy and give some links or at least more exact info that might lead to a website for these lifter sources ? :confused:

Next question: Do most guys now use Bullet and CC for their Stocker cams ? Or, are there other brands out there that lots of guys use ? Back in the old days we all used Lunati. I reckin they're stayin in business selling Voodoo cams for low comp engines, now.

THANKS !

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Try these. I cant find the smith site anymore.

http://trendperform.com/?go=products&type=lifter

http://pppcenter.com/

Edit: Found this one

http://schubeckracing.com/

Edit 2: Found this but its in the UK.???

http://www.fbo-uk.com/Composite%20lifters.htm

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yea, its really a 266/272 @ .050 ...hehe Its pretty big, and it should wake my combo up, as im only running a real soft lobe with 251/256 right now...and hoping the lighter 350 trans, and some tuning, and maybe restalling the converter, will help me see some real ET gains... IT'll be interesting, to say the least. No ceramic puck lifters for me... im goin with a limited travel(.015) style lifter.

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Of these sites, the only Pontiac Stocker lifters I can find are the former Shubecks. They're now called SM Composite lifters.The last link above shows a 541 area code phone number. The 541 area code is from the state of Oregon.

They show some Olds lifters, with .015" of travel. The Olds and Pontiac are supposed to be the same. They are supposed to have a chat line. But I couldn't raise anybody. Daytime only maybe. They did show a price of $720 + shipping. :eek: Are all the competitive Stocker guys paying that much for lifters ? :confused:

Not sure if they would come from the UK or Oregon or where. There seems to be some sort of weird mystery involved with these stocker lifters. It seems that everybody is using either tool steel or the Shubeck style, but I have not seen a link to a GOOD site that has 'em listed. So, exactly where the heck are you guys buying these super duper legal hyd Stocker lifters ?

There has got to be a decent link to a good source, if most Stockers are using them. Since it is no secret that everybody is using them, it shouldn't be a secret where to buy 'em. IMO :)

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there are some guys using "Sherman" lifters... that's the type im gonna use...im not putting 700+ in lifters... im not trying to set records...hehe

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Here's the contact info for Cliff Sherman:
Sherman Racing Products
P.O. Box 1326
Donaldsonville, LA 70346
(225)473-4923, (225)717-1460, (225)717-1461

Bullet Cams keeps some Sherman lifters in stock. John at Bullet takes care of the 'stocker' cams...make sure and ask for him. (662)893-5670 -Al

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OK, all this talk about Stocker cams and lifters, brings up some more dummy questions. So ya'll have patience with me please. :o

(1) Have the index numbers got so low that it is now an absolute necessity to run these ridiculous cams, which require tool steel lifters and high spring pressures, in order to run the index or slightly under ?

(2) Exactly how much spring pressure is too much for regular non-tool steel lifters ?

(3) For a Pontiac 455 engine that shouldn't need to go over 6000rpm to run the number, would it be possible to reduce the cam duration enuff to use low enuff spring pressure to run non-tool steel lifters ?

Just a dummy observation: It appears to me as tho a Stocker cam / lifters / springs will cost as much if not more than a solid roller set-up. To me, there is something about it that just ain't right. Back in the day, we started out in Stock, then some worked up to SS, then Modified Production, etc. But today it takes big bucks to build a quick Stocker. But then, I don't have to tell you guys that.

But the rules are what they are. So I reckin you either play by the rules or choose another game. I suppose that's one reason most today run bracket instead of class. They can build a quicker car, cheaper, and not have to worry about an index or tear downs. The goal is just low RT's and consistent ET's.

This is just an opinion question for you guys who have been around Stocker racing for a long time. Why do you suppose NHRA didn't just leave the cam rule as "exact factory specs". The hp factors could compensate for engines that came with small cams. The cam grinders have the ability to grind 'em that way. So how did the Stocker cam rule get so out of hand ? What was the purpose of making the Stockers so quick ? There are higher classes, if you wanna go quicker. My thinking is that there would be a lot more Stockers if they were closer to actually being stock. And this would have kept a lot more tracks running a Stock / SS class. :)

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oldskool - My observations that may give insight into your questions.

1) Valve spring pressure and not camshaft duration is the major factor in the skyrocketed cost of stocker valve trains. The reason we have such radical camshafts is the result of being able to have the valve spring pressure to accomodate the increased rates of lift and elevated engine RPM.
2) Likely the cost of enforcing camshaft specs and valve spring pressure is the reason NHRA elected to change the rules. It takes a lot of time for education of technical staff, cost for maintaining the staff and increased office support to insure that consistency is adhered to in the field for checking camshafts for duration and overlap. The number of stories of questionable certification procedures from back when they did check duration and overlap would be an indication of how difficult it is to maintain the procedures. Also, there are many political and technical issues behind keeping that process in place that are not easily solved. 'Not easy' means money and time. For NHRA to continue the Stock eliminator, it is much easier with fewer cost implications to do lift and that is all.
3) IMHO a limit of valve spring pressure would lessen the cost of engine building in many areas and I wish they would do that. Checking valve spring pressure is not that difficult in the field. Certainly no more difficult than checking camshaft lift.
4) Standard lifters run into questionable reliability over 130 lbs on the seat and about 350 lbs over the nose. You can do more than that successfully, but you need to follow some definite processes. The NASCAR community ran flat tappet cams for years without the benefit of tool steel or ceramic lifters and there is a boat load of information about how to maximize use.
5) Depending on the combination you race, the super expensive valve train is not necessary to be competitive. Most common 283, 327 and 350 SBC combinations do because the development of the technology from so many racers has pushed the standard of performance to a level that requires those parts. BBC solid lifter engines are the same.
6) It is not the duration that makes the requirement of the tool steel or composite lifters, it is the rate of lift and the valve spring pressure. And you need the valve spring pressure to operate in high RPM ranges. We used to run 260-275 degrees duration back in the days of stock valve spring specs on certain engines, but the rates of lift of the camshafts were much milder and we didn't run the RPM levels that are common today. At 6000 RPM on your Pontiac engine, you could be judicious with valve train weight and get by with valve springs that would not require tool steel or ceramic lifters if you don't get nuts with rates of lift on the camshaft.

More for you to think about and get a clearer perspective.

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Some of the issue that have us where we are is allowing unlimited spring pressure. The trick lifters with ceramic pucks require more spring pressure. Otherwise if they are not controlled the puck shatters and tears up the engine requiring a rebuild. With unlimited spring pressure a more aggressive cam lobe can be used and the lifter will stay in contact. Tool steel trick lifters for my combo 8 years ago cost around $700. Now we are allowed roller rockers too, so every rule change that allows something, opens a can of worms. Being able to run under the index costs money. How far under dictates if it's a soft combo or not. Most of us test a lot in order to refine what we have. I test more than I race, as my combo is not underrated like some of the other combos available.

Dwight types faster than I do!

Sorry Brent if I hyjacked your thread! Keep plugging away at it. If it was easy there would not be any challenge to making your car run well. Challenge in Stock usually means $$$

Sean

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Hey THANKS ya'll ! That's some REAL good info. ! :)

I never even considered that NHRA would allow these crazy cams and spring pressures just because it would make teching easier. With all the tales I've heard about teardowns, I just assumed that they wanted to check everything they could on the winners and national record cars.

I figured that by now they had every kind of measuring and checking device and procedure that could possibly be needed to check every minute detail of an engine, at the track. And, as mentioned, the spring pressures would be easy to check.

Maybe they think that by doing less checking and measuring, they will make fewer guys mad, and keep 'em coming back to race. I can see where detailed teardowns, requiring precise measurements, would definitely keep most guys away from Stocker racing. With that in mind, they may start doing fewer and less detailed teardowns, as time goes on, just to keep the car count up. Ya think ?

It may evolve into a sort of "stock appearing" class.

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We are building a 74 duster to run in g stock. Hope to make it to indy in may. You guys have got me scared to death about the dreaded tear downs. How often do they tear you down, what happens if they find you illegal. We are not going to set any records, should be about 3 or 4 tenths under. Can't spend that much money just wanting to have some fun.

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Probably not a big concern for you in your situation. They never tear anybody down at a Divisional except for a record.

They tear down a bunch of cars at Indy Nats. but at 3-4 under you won't have to worry about that.

They do tear down the All Stars at that race.
If you are a pretty fair ET racer and you go to every Div 3 event for a full year, and happen to be leading that, deal before the Joliet Nats, you can plan on a teardown.

Another case might be , if you're leading the Div. points after about three races and then you show up at a National race in Div. 3, and they're looking for a few to tear down, you can plan on spending a half of a day with Mr Travis Miller!

All in all ,dreading teardowns is not much of an excuse to not do some NHRA racing.
There ARE plenty of other good reasons to not do this stuff.
Stick around here..You'll see.

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Lots of guys are real secretive about the details of their cars. But Brent has been very open with the details of his build. And I for one, really appreciate that ! So, I'd like to dig a little into one thing he mentioned--the converter.

Because of these wild valves trains stockers can run now, most engines have very little low end torque. And the short stroke engines have very little low end anyhow. So, in order to run quick, the converter must get the engine up into it's power range QUICK.

Brent mentioned the 4000 rpm number and up. So, if the engine's power range is from say 4000 to 6000 or a little over, then a 3000 or a 5000 stall converter would turn a slower ET than a 4000. At least that's my simple country boy thinkin. Now, I know that when you mention converters, everybody starts talkin about torque multiplication, top end efficiency and all sorts of other stuff besides just the stall speed.

So, if it's OK, I'd like to hear from you guys who know about converters. The 1st thing you always hear is I've got to know every detail of your build--stroke, bore, cam, heads, carb, torque and power range, max RPM, rear gear, tire size, weight of car, etc, etc, etc.

But, in this thread, Brent has laid out his build in a lot of detail. So, I'd like to use his build for this converter discussion. If this is out of order, somebody please tell me, and I'll delete this post and ask my questions on a separate thread. I certainly don't want to hijack Brent's thread.

I'll wait til tomorrow to go any further with this, til I hear from ya'll. Thanks ! :)

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In my case I depend on ATI to make the determination on torque convertor size/stall...they have an extensive data base and know what works for most any given combo.

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oldskool: You're doing your homework, as your questions show. I'd sure encourage you to start a seperate thread on your build...you could 'copy/paste' several of your posts into your own thread and go from there.

Looking forward to seeing your Build thread! :) -Al

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Oldskool... ATi is definitely one of the best, for Pontiacs , anyway... Ive heard alot of good about PTC, as well. But, i think ATi nailed my converter dead on, for the cam and the rest of the parts that i have... I'd have to do the math, but i trap at 6300 with 4.56 gear , 94'' radial, 116 mph, weighing right at 3500lbs. My car seems to pull pretty good, considering i'm running a 'small' cam(251/256*). and shifting about 5700 or so. This season, im stepping up to a 266/272, and most likely will want to loosen converter another 400-600, possibly. However, im gonna try it the way it is, first, with my lightened 350 trans, and some weight moved around, to the trunk, and see what i get. The new cam will move my power band up some, and will probably be shifting 6000-6200, most likely. Since my heads and intake havent really been worked over, thats probably about all the rpm it will be good for...but hoping that i can pick up another 200-300 at the traps, but may have to go to the 92'' radial, to accomplish that, unless the new cam gives me some HP, and wants to pull up better, in high gear.

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Brent--Thanks a lot for sharing those details of your build with us ! :)

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No problem Don... half the fun of racing, is talking about it...hehe

I had several people help me with some good advice, along the way...Stock has alot of great guys and gals... Without the help of alot of these people, i probably wouldnt have seen .26 under, with a simple build as mine...
Im hoping to improve .2-.25 this season...

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Slowly but surely getting ready to work on the car, some more...Heater delete is all done, fender back on... that wasnt alot of fun... Picked up 350 trans last weekend... Probably gonna yank engine in a couple weeks and get ready for a cam change.... will be getting lifters done( limited travel) and getting cam and lifters coated, and will be ready to swap it out. It probably seems crazy to you guys , that im removing engine, just to swap cam...but i may redo my oil pump pickup while its out...and it will be alot easier to degree cam and check P/V clearance. Im anxious to see if new cam, trans, and some weight management wakes the car up a bit... also , gonna work on doin another carb for it, as well. Looking for 11teens! :D

As you can see, it needs some cleaning...

https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.n...abe59116c5b6d2

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If you are thinking about another carb, then think Single Booster. Good news is I have one for sale. Bad news is it's expensive. LOL! Danny

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Pulling the motor isnt crazy Brent...it's so easy in these cars I don't even consider working on them in the bay. ;)

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Hey Brent I was wondering if you could tell me the specs on the solid cam you ran in your 455.

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thanks alot Danny! hehe Did a hybrid... Chevy baseplate, Buick main body, Pontiac airhorn... Had help from Cliff Ruggles, to sort it all out... Had it on car today... little fat in primaries, but sounded good, otherwise... I believe it will outrun my current setup,when tuned. I have a '74 750 cfm, that i want to do next...i also have a '71 or '72 Corvette carb that i'd like to try, but it needs all the mods... my goal is to find the 'magic' low dollar deal... and try to do most of it myself... im learning more everyday...:)

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When you come up to visit, I think we can accelerate your learning curve on the Quadrajet. Plan on staying a while though as I'm pretty long winded on that subject. LOL!. Danny

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yeah...its a 275/276 @ .050 .562/.588 if i recall... its 106ICL, 108LSA i think... i will check the card soon...i can give you the part # when i look at the card...

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I would like to come up and visit soon... Cant wait to see your latest project, as well. Oh dont worry, i could talk qjets all day...hehe

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Mine is coming out in a couple weeks, or sooner... Just did another carb, and was wanting to fine tune it a bit, sounds good, just a little fat in the primaries...
Worked with Cliff Ruggles on this one... and hoping to use the knowledge that i picked up, to maybe do another, this year, after i get car dialed back in...

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Wow...that's a STOUT figure at .050. LOVE to learn about hard running Pontiacs!

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Its alot of cam, but it seemed to like it... Car left hard, and i doubt the 750 qjet was really giving the engine what it needed... Next time its in the car, i'd love to try a 950 on it...or a really good 800cfm qjet, that has been modded heavily to be more than 800cfm.

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Put the 350 turbo up in the car today... Engine is ready to pull, but i wanted to get trans in first, to see how my driveshaft would be, if mine would work. I dont believe it will, as tthe trans is about 1/2'' or so shorter than the 400. How come nobody told me that i would need to notch the crossmember, to clear the deep aluminum pan? :) I hope to have engine out, and put new cam in it, by the weeks' end. All im waiting on is my lifters to come back from coating, and Im in business. And i have to build a driveshaft, im pretty sure. Should i go 3'' or 3 1/2''? I have 1350 joints and hardened Strange yoke.