Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

Most here know how quick NHRA hp factors can change. And many times those changes can make certain combos either more or less competitive, for the heads-up runs.

But, as of right now, there are a few Pontiac combos which seem to be more competitive than most others.

I'll make a list, in very roughly the order I think they fall, as to the most competitive. I am by no means the Pontiac expert here. So, for those Pontiac guys who have a different opinion as to the correct order, I'd like to hear all opinions.

(1) Has to be a 1977 180hp 400. Since this engine is factored so much higher if in a Bird, it has to be more competitive in some other body style, such as a Lemans, Catalina, or GP. My preference would be a Cam Am. I think one of those would be so cool. :cool:

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...4&MAKE=Pontiac

(2) The '68 Bird with either the 330hp D-port engine, or the RAII round port engine has always been a very competitive combo.

(3) The 455HO engine has always been competitive, in most all body combos. Scott Underhill recently held the nat record in E/SA, with his 455HO powered T-37.

(4) The '68 & '69 350hp GTO. This is basically the same engine as the '68 & '69 330hp Bird engine, but has a lower hp factor, at 325hp. Don't know of a single '69 GTO Stocker currently in competition. Might be because of the high value of an original or restored real GTO.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...4&MAKE=Pontiac

Don't know if the increased wind drag of the A-body, over the Bird body, would offset the hp factor difference or not. Maybe some of you guys can tell us how much difference, just the wind drag would make. I understand that the A-body is heavier. Just referring to the ET difference caused by the aerodynamic difference in the 2 body styles.

Because of the value of the round port heads, especially the SD455 & RAIV heads, I'd say that round port head combos would not be a good choice for a new Pontiac Stocker build. Because of the availability and price of the 6X heads, I'd say the '77 180hp 400, in a non-Bird body, is the best choice.

(5) For those who insist on a '77 Bird body, the 170hp 350 might be more competitive.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...3&MAKE=Pontiac

(6) 1974 225hp 400. For those wanting to use a mid '70's Bird body, this may be better than a '77, since the hp factor is 275hp. Tommy Brown uses this engine in a Lemans, & has been the highest Pontiac qualifier on several Q-lists I've seen. I think Don Turk & Don Elgin have also done well with this engine in A-bodies. And we've already talked about Bob Mulry's '74 Bird, which may be the quickest Pontiac ever, against it's index. Don't know for sure.

(7) The '73 250hp 455, in a Bird, at only a 306hp factor, is the best low CR D-port 455 combo. I think Michael Brand & Adam Davis made this combo popular, a few years back, with their '73 Formulas.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...79&MAKE=Pontia

[8) Being a GTO fan, I like Todd Kuhn's D-port 455 '70 GTO. My first 455 was out of one of these cars. With just a change to a Pontiac 041 cam, it ran 12.40's in our '68 Bird. And that was with only 3.55 gears & a stock 13" converter. At only 340hp, I figure this engine has more potential than most any other Pontiac engine. It has high compression & big cubes. In fact, the '70 455 is the ONLY high compression 455. The #64 heads are not real easy to find. But, they'll be cheaper than any round ports.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...0&MAKE=Pontiac

Then there is the 301. Billy Nees probably knows more about the non-turbo 301 than anybody else. And I suppose Rick Unterseh is the 301T guy. But, this is not a good combo for others to consider, IMO, because the needed 301T blocks & cranks are getting so hard to find.

Of course there are many other combos that can be used, which can easily be made to run under the index. And, since, except for same class heads-up runs, Stock is basically a bracket race, as long as you can run your index or quicker, you can win a race.

Mike Morgan won his class at Indy, a few years back, with a '76 400 Bird. Ryan Warter has done well with a '75 Bird. Ryan Schloe did OK with a '71 455 D-port Bird. As mentioned, Adam Strang ran high 10's with the '68 350HO engine, in his '68 bird.

If there have been any competitive 2-barrel Pontiacs, I'm not aware of 'em. Anybody know of any ?

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

My old combo from 10 years ago. 1972 LeMans/GTO 455 250hp rated at 315. I ran 10.83 with this combo in testing at the end of 2009. Still a great combo.

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

Yeah, Ryan Schloe even ran a '71 Bird with a D-port 455. The guys on the PY site posted how bad those #66 heads were. Ryan did OK with it. Ran safely under the index. He was .929 under, at the 2005 Pomona finals.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2005#indextop

So, there are quite a few Pontiac combos that can run well under, if built correctly & the car is set up right.

Speakin of your '72 D-port combo, Gary Wood said they did just as good with it as with the 455HO, in their Tons-a-Fun wagons.

http://www.hotrod.com/articles/0212hpp-pontiac-history/

Of the '71 & '72 cars running now, I don't always know which ones have D-ports & which ones have the 455HO. Since weight can be added or removed to run maybe 3 different classes, it's sometimes hard to tell, by the class they're running, exactly which engine they have.

I think Scott Burton was the last guy to run RAIV heads, in Stock. So, since he & John Schloe no longer run 'em, I suppose there is nobody currently running them, in Stock. But, there are several cars still running the 455HO engines. Brad Burton is the first name that comes to mind. We've mentioned how much he's won with that car, including 2 nat championships. Don Turk now has a 455HO powered T-37, as does former record holder Scott Underhill. I think Larry Maxwell's old car has the 455HO. A lady from Canada now drives it.

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

The 71 and 72 Combo is different. 71 combo can be run in an F Body and A Body and is rated at 325. The 72 is A Body only and rated at 315. It uses a 7M5 head that has a bigger intake runner.

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

Yeah, that's why the PY guys badmouthed those #66 heads.

And, because of the better heads & lower hp factor, that '72 A-body combo would obviously be more competitive.

But, as Ryan Schloe proved, the '71, with #66 heads can run well below the index. Wouldn't be as good, for heads-up runs. But, should be just as good for the dial-your-own rounds.

If built correctly, there are lots of Pontiac combinations that will run under their index. But, most guys wanna run as far under as possible. So, if you begin with a combo that has a favorable hp factor, that means that you don't have to get as serious with the build, just to run the index.

BUT, for those who wanna build a Pontiac that will run a sec under, they have to be more selective in their engine choice. Have to weigh the engine potential against the NHRA hp factor, for that engine, in the body you wanna use.

As mentioned, some body styles have already been hit real hard. The '77 Birds, using the 180hp 400 engine is a good example. The '74 GTO is another.

So, for anyone planning a Pontiac Stocker build, all these things must be considered. For just building something that will run under, there are LOTS of Pontiac combos that will work. But, for running a sec under, there are a few combos that offer more potential.

Stocker guys have been playing with this system for a long time now. That's why you see so many vehicles on the track that were not considered High Performance, at all, in factory form. BUT, because of NHRA hp factoring, an ugly, plain Jane car, that no Musclecar guys ever liked, may be a killer combo, on the track, especially if they can keep from getting a big hp hit.

Pickup trucks immediately come to mind. Then there are all the wagons, & other real heavy cars. And, there are the 4 cyl compacts. We remember a guy named Dave Botkin. He had a little pinto named "Tumbleweed" that ran strong. He won a div 4 title with it.

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

Here's a short Pontiac slide show, with lots of Pontiac history, including quite a few race car pics.

Anybody who wants to watch will want to turn your audio volume off, because it is some sort of elevator music, or something that does not fit the video in the least.

It goes past the last Pontiac V8 engine, & depicts the very sad end of the Pontiac Motor Division.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahQK...e=channel_page

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

Found some more old Pontiac Stocker pics.

I've looked at so many pics lately, I can't remember all I've used in this thread. Maybe I should have kept a list. But I didn't. So, I'll rely on the mechanism on this site that tells you if you've already used & pic, & in what thread.

This 1st batch are '69 Birds.

Well, I'd already posted 3 of 'em. So, I'll try some other models.

Found 3 '68 pics I haven't posted yet.

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

I'll try some more.

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

Some Goats.

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

I'm gonna present my opinions here. Then I wanna get opinions from you Pontiac guys.

(1) The first thing I want your opinions on, is what would be the cheapest Pontiac combo, that could be easily made to run safely under the index, & even survive a couple of small index reductions.

My opinon:

I think a '77 180hp 400 would be the cheapest, when used in any legal body EXCEPT a Bird. The NHRA hp factor is 260.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...4&MAKE=Pontiac

There are still some good blocks out there for around $600 or less. Most any good 400 block will work, EXCEPT the infamous "557" blocks.

The required 6x-8 heads are probably the cheapest & most plentiful 400 Pontiac heads there are. Usable cores are still going for around $200 a pair, or less.

Adam Strang has proven that you can get by with the cheap Speed Pro forged pistons. That savings will pay for the price of a core block.

That engine can use an 800cfm Q-jet.

This is no secret or surprise to anybody, since there have been so many Pontiac Stockers run this engine.

(2) Next question is: What is the best Pontiac combo, IF there is no budget limit at all. Another way to say it is: ...if cost does not matter.

I'll list several which I think MIGHT be best. The oldest one is a Ram Air II engine in a '68 Bird. 340hp factor. The cam can have nearly .500 lift.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...3&MAKE=Pontiac

The Class Racer Info site just quit working, for me. Anybody else ?

The 455HO engine has always been competitive. I think it still is. I assume that Brad Burton is the most famous 455HO guy, in recent years, with national & div championships.

Well, I'll stop this 'til the CRI site starts working again. Then I'll edit & continue.

OK, it's back up. The factor for a '72 455HO, in a Bird, is 325hp. IMO, that's a competitive combo.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...9&MAKE=Pontiac

The '73-'74 D-port 455 has a 306 hp factor, in Birds. Michael Brand & Adam Davis proved that is a competitive combo.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...9&MAKE=Pontiac

Then, of course, for those who can afford the high dollar factory parts, the '73-'74 SD455, in a Bird, is still a competitive combo, at 335hp.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...0&MAKE=Pontiac

Even at 356hp, the '69 Firebird should still be competitive, with the round port RAIV engine. Besides the round port heads, it has high compression, & a cam with .531 lift. Like the SD455, the RAIV parts are now rare & expensive.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...2&MAKE=Pontiac

Another combo I like is the '70 GTO, with the 360hp D-port 455. It has a 340hp factor. But, it's high compression. Only one of these cars running in recent years, that I know of. Don't know what an all-out build would do.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...0&MAKE=Pontiac

The '74 400 is still a possibility, since you can run it in a Bird, without a penalty. But, in other bodies, the '77 400 has a 15hp advantage. In recent years, the '77 has been run in the Lemans, the Grand Prix, & at least 1 Catalina.

At a 333hp factor, the '68 Bird, with the 330hp 400, is still competitive.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...9&MAKE=Pontiac

I've mentioned that he same engine in a '68-'69 GTO, has only a 325hp factor. I ask but never got a response. So, is the GTO body enuff to offset that 8hp difference ? Or, would a GTO be slightly more competitive, with the same engine?

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...4&MAKE=Pontiac

I personally like the extra torque of the 455 engines. So, when the hp factors are pretty close, I favor the 455 over the 400.

So, with price not a concern, what Pontiac combo do you guys think would be most competitive, in an all-out, no expense spared build ?

And, while we're at it, I think I've read where both Bill Rink & Mike Morgan have said that Parsons & Myers can build the quickest Pontiac engine. What say ya'll ?

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

The biggest issue that you're going to have in building the "cheapest" Pontiac combo is going to be finding a body. Where are you going to find a "cheap", decent (not needing to spend 5K and a year in body shop prison) car?

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

Yeah, that's a good point.

My thought is that anybody who'd attempt to build a really CHEAP Pontiac powered Stocker, would have all the basic skills to build a car from the ground up.

For example: My neighbor is a long time Pontiac guy. He's built & raced quite a few Pontiac bracket cars, including a couple that went well into the nines. He also restores old Pontiacs, including complete frame-off builds. He can do just about everything, including building the engine. If I had the money, he'd probably be all in on building a Stocker. Another Pontiac neighbor would also help. There are probably Pontiac friends all over the country who could get together on a Stocker project. Some of the Pontiac clubs probably have members who would enjoy a Stocker club project.

Our local track don't run Stock. So, we'd have to tow several hundred miles, to run 'em. Would have to be a dual purpose car, running mostly local bracket races, to justify having a Stocker.

There was a family in a nearby city with the last name Cardwell. They had several competitive cars, for years. Many of the older div 4 guys here will remember them. You can still find their name on some of the DRC race result lists. One brother's name was Ronnie, the other Doug.

The reason I mention them is because they built a '69 350HO Tempest, as a Stocker. Don't have a clue why( I think I'll ask 'em), since they were always Chevy guys. I have the dyno sheet showing that it made 434hp. Anyhow, after it was built, it didn't show enuff potential for them, only running mid 12's, before doing any serious tuning & tweaking. Had they known anything about Pontiacs, they would have chosen a better combo.

So, they sold it to a local Chevy bracket racer. He immediately wound it up too high & broke a stock rod. He had another short block built, & got it running, then put it up for sale, That's when I bought it, for $7k, in 2009.

Had 2 bracket cars. Bought a 7.3 diesel crew cab dually, & a 2-car gooseneck, & planned to race a lot at our local track, in 2010. But, our local track did not open at all in 2010. :( So I sold the truck & trailer. Sold the Tempest to my Pontiac neighbor, and sold my other bracket car as a roller. I assumed my local track was history, just as most of the other tracks we use to race are.

I began foolin around with a little dirt racing, at our local track. Then the drag strip opened back up. Kept running for a few years, so I decided to put another bracket car together. The neighbors helped & it would have been ready for the 2017 season. So, I bought a nice open car trailer & a used 2500 HD GMC, & was ready for 2017.

But, the 2 track owners had a fallin out, and the track was sold to a bank, at auction. No racing in 2017. So, I sold my '68 Bird as a roller. The track is on good river bottom land. So, I assumed it would be sold & farmed. Not so. One of the former owners bought it back, & resumed racing.

So, I bought an '80 Bird, & put my 455/TH400 in it. Hope to make a few passes this year. The only reason I'm telling all this is to let ya'll know a little more about me. I'm not some flake trying to impress a bunch of serious racers.

Below are some pics of the '69 Tempest, as it was when I bought it, then as it looked after my neighbor did a frame-off rebuild into a sort of a modified "ET" tribute car. For those who don't know, the ET was a prototype of a car that was never put into production. It is said to be the forerunner of the Judge. It was to be on a basic Tempest/Lemans body, and use a 350HO for power.

The 1st few paragraphs of this article tells the ET story.

https://silodrome.com/pontiac-gto-judge/

http://justacarguy.blogspot.com/2009...ontiac-et.html

Some here may remember the Don Turk car that was for sale, for $10,500, IIRC. That was a bargain, IMO. I think the new owner won a couple of div races with it last season. If I'd had the money, I'd have bought that car.

Anyhow, it don't have to cost a fortune to build a decent Pontiac powered Stocker. But, if you must pay to have all the work done, including $5k plus for body/paint work, then the price will obviously be high. As for the body, I figure there are still a few usable bodies for less than $5k. And if you can do all the body work, quite a bit less than $5k, will probably buy something usable. Guys here are always talkin about how Stock/SS guys should know how to work on there cars to make 'em faster. Well, I think most guys who don't have big bucks must have good car building skills, in order to build a Stocker for a reasonable price.

Hey, these are just my thoughts & opinions. And, as we all know, opinions differ. :)

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

there was a car Stephen Pontiac campaigned back in the day this would have been a D1 car 69 firebird 400 car , I know the person who has it ,, any one have any pictures?

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

The sad fact is hardly anyone builds their own stuff anymore. Add to this that several good "brand name" builders won't touch a real Pontiac engine.

I had a 77 Bonneville roller for sale about 7-8 years ago. Rust free Ca. car. With a 400/260, it will run N/SA where it doesn't need a roll bar...Easy 1 second under car.
I had it for sale here for about 3 months. Never got the slightest nibble. Ended up scrapping it.
Another fact is , if you can afford to play the NHRA game, most people want to do it with a 10 second car. Win or lose, you get to do a big wheelie.
Ask again, what it costs to build a low 10 second Ram Air IV car . You'll have your answer why you don't see many Pontiac anymore.

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

This it ?

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

Yeah, that Bonny would work. As most Pontiac guys know, Bob Michael built a '77 Catalina. And before that a '77 Lemans, which Dave Ribeiro has now.

Bruce Noland is building a '69 Bird. Don't know what engine he'll run. He may have said & I just don't remember. I do remember that he said it has the aftermarket block. so it's a serious build. Lookin forward to seeing how it does. It's been posted that John Schloe switched over to D-ports after he messed up a RAIV head. And we all know that Scott Burton sold his '70 RAIV, and it was shipped overseas.

"...several good "brand name" builders won't touch a real Pontiac engine..."

Apparently, Parsons & Myers will. And there are obviously several others, since there are still quite a few Pontiac Stockers & Super Stockers running.

While on that subject, I'll just go ahead & ask the question to all you forum guys. Besides Parsons & Myers, what good engine builders can & will work on Pontiac Stock/SS engines ? :confused:

Pretty sure there are several well known Pontiac engine builders, who can build the shortblock.

https://www.dcimotorsports.com/servi...ngine-builder/

I'll ask around & add others that can build Pontiac Stocker engines.

This shop built a 400 engine for East Coast GT SS racer Vic Santos. His car ran real good. so, they can probably also do a Stocker engine.

http://www.bouchersracing.com/racers/

Now, when it comes to the head tricks, like acid porting or whatever they're doin to heads these days, that might require a shop that sorta specializes in that type of work. I remember reading a section on the Heads-Up site, describing their procedure. But, that section was later deleted.

https://www.headsupcylinderheads.com/services2.html

Julie Biermann drives a quick '68 Bird Stocker, built by Tim Gillespie. It has a Heads-Up decal on it. See pic below.

There are several competitive Pontiac racers gettin 'em built somewhere. Just did a real quick check of my records. I have pics of more than 50 Pontiac Stockers that have raced this century. And, most of the cars are still racing. I realize there are thousands of other brand Stockers out there. But, if there were thousands of Pontiacs, there would really be no reason for this thread. Most all the Chevy combos have been beat to death for a LONG time, & most here know all about 'em. So, probably not too many guys would wanna hear it all again.

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

For engine builder Lance Line,he does the motors for Ron Prince's 'bird and Brad Koivisto's 74 GTO...gsa612

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

Hey, that's good info !

Looks like he has a repair shop & dyno, in Wright, MN.

https://www.google.com/search?q=line...2UgaW4gbW4;mv:[[46.8333776,-92.5478318],[43.957622699999995,-93.6395369]]

I think Brad's car is the quickest '74 GTO Stocker ever. Runs low 11's.

And Ron Prince's '68 Bird runs high 10's.

There were 5 Pontiacs in the upper half of this Q-list, including Brad & Ron.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCStory.asp?ID=313163

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

OK, I think I mentioned Ryan Warter's '75 Formy, & even posted a video of his win at the Northwest Nats.

The only '76 Bird Stocker I remember ever seeing belonged to Mike Morgan. He won the K/SA class with it, at the 2014 US Nats.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2014#indextop

After that, Mike sold the car & bought the '77 350 powered SS Formy from Sal Piacentini.

Last I knew, the '76 Stocker belonged to Kevin Love.

To that car I'll add some '77 Bird Stockers I've known of, that have run this century. Don't know the history of most of 'em. I suspect that most have changed hands one or more times.

I'll start with 2 nat record holders. One belonged to Bill Edgeworth, the other to Dave Ribeiro. The next one belongs to Chad Smith. It's the former Paul Dilcher car.

The next 3 were driven by Tommy Pettigrew, Rob Holmes, & Mike Moyer.

The last one is driven by Dylan Biondo. It's been in the Biondo family for years. I know Sal & Peter drove it some.

We've talked about some of these cars. Maybe some of you guys can give us the history of some of 'em.

One thing I DO know. These cars, with the 400 engine have really taken a severe hit. I think it's really sorta overkill, to add 23 hp to an engine, just because it's in a Firebird body. Seems to make more common sense to factor the engine the same, no matter what body it's in. But, I've already said that. And I'm sure others have said the same about other brand engines.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...4&MAKE=Pontiac

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

At this 2001 Vegas Summit Nats race, Neil Smedley was #1 qualifier @ 1.305 under, & won the race, with his 301T '81 Bird ! That's a pretty impressive Pontiac sweep !

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2001#indextop

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2001#indextop

I know VERY little about those 301T engines. About all I know is that the turbo cranks are stronger, & the blocks with 301T on the side, are stronger than the earlier blocks that didn't have 301T on the side.

I'd like for Rick Unterseh, & others who know about 'em, to post all the info you can share about racing a 301T car.

I assume that anyone who has seriously raced one has blown some up.

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

Now for the non-turbo 301 Stockers.

I assume that you will also need both the turbo crank & block.

The '79 Lemans that Billy Nees has is the only serious non-turbo 301 powered Stocker I've ever heard of.

He's shared info about it before. Don't know if he'd be willing to share any of what he's learned, here, or not.

I do remember him saying that he & Don went thru quite a few cams before they got one that worked good. And he said those 301T blocks & cranks are getting real scarce.

Any non turbo 301 drag racing info that anyone can share would be appreciated.

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

I do my own stuff with help from Dwayne Porter at Porter Racing Heads,Dale Spooner at Motion Machine in Danville Virginia and Joe Woodward. Been doing most everything myself since I was a teenager and I'm not going to change now.

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

That would be a mild understatement!

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

Maybe Billy can help with this one.

Are there any 350 or larger 2-barrel Pontiac combos that might be competitive, or at least might not be too hard to make run under the index ?

I don't personally know of any 2-barrel Pontiac Stockers.

I'll look up some specs for some 2-barrel Pontiac engines & see what turns up.

Wow ! Apparently VERY few have ever tried to run a Pontiac 2-barrel engine. For the early years they were just rated whatever Pontiac had 'em rated. The only factors I see that were changed were for the '73 & '74 350. It changed to 210hp, in 2002. Maybe somebody tried this combo & asked for a reduction, & got it. From what I see, those are the only years you'd have a chance. The factors for the early 350's were more than for a '77 400 4-barrel engine, at 265hp. And the 400 2-barrel factors were even higher, at 290hp. Those 290hp engines only came in big cars.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...5&MAKE=Pontiac

There was a 255hp 400 that came in '67 GTO's.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...8&MAKE=Pontiac

So, what about it guys ? Could you get a '73-'74 2-barrel 350 under the index, at 210hp ? I don't know how much power you can get with those little 2 barrel carbs. Would like to get some input from some of you GM 2-barrel racers.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...4&MAKE=Pontiac

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

For a 350 and larger combo, the only decent one would be this one. It's not without it's "issues" though. It doesn't have a whole bunch of compression and it's the only one of the GM 350s that uses a 2G carb with a 1.18 venturi (same carb as a 305). All of the others have at least the 1.25 venturi 2G.
But ya know, for some reason when ya look at the specs and the pieces that go into a Pontiac, they always seem to run better than they should.
Oh BTW, as far as I know, all 301 cranks are the same.

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

"...as far as I know, all 301 cranks are the same."

Have never seen a 301 crank. Just going by what I've read online.

Here's what I usually read about the 301T crank.

"...a rolled fillet crankshaft..."

Don't know what that means nor if the T crank is actually different from the non-T crank, or not.

Another article describes the turbo crank this way.

"...installed a sturdier crank with pressure-treated fillets..."

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

yep,, that's it thanks ! any other pictures please post

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

Found 3 more.

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

Just got some new info. As said, I've never before seen or heard of any 2-barrel Pontiac Stockers.

But, an eyewitness says that he remembers that Don Himes used to run a Pontiac Lemans wagon, with a 2-barrel. Said he don't remember it being a high qualifier, but quick enuff to compete. This was before Don had the GP.

I'll just take a guess that it was a '73 wagon with the 350 2-barrel. And, may have been the car that got NHRA to lower the hp factor. But, it could have had a 400 2-barrel.

Anybody else remember this car ?

Don't have any pics of it. But i did find a nice pic of a '73 wagon with a GTO front on it.

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

Yes he did , but it was during the 70's pure stock era. He used to drive it around in NJ. About the same time as the Marvosh car. Before he had the white 72 wagon Stocker..

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

OK, I'd like to explore this 2-barrel thing a little more. Assuming that several of you Chevy guys have run 2-barrel combos at some point.

So, what I'd like to zero in on is the power potential, of the smaller carb with the 1.186 venturi vs the larger carb, with the 1.25 venturi.

(1) For those of you who have tried both size carbs on your sbc engine, how much of a power or ET difference did the bigger carb make ? :confused:

(2) Lookin at Class Racer Info site, I see that a '73 350 2-barrel sbc is factored at 224hp, in an F or X body, when using factory heads.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...MAKE=Chevrolet

The '73 350 Pontiac is factored at 210hp.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...3&MAKE=Pontiac

But, as Billy said, it has less compression & a smaller carb. Just makes sense that this size engine has more power potential, if it has more CR & a bigger carb. Obviously, this is assuming that the 2-barrel carb would be the limiting factor, or "choke point" of a 350 cube engine.

I assume the increased CR & larger carb would definitely give the sbc engine more power potential. I'm guessing that those 2 advantages would more than make up for the 14hp difference. But, how much more ?

I assume there are racers out there running this combo, especially in a Nova. So, for you GM guys who have done a lot of testing & racing, with 2-barrel carbs, please consider these differences & let us know if you think this Pontiac engine has the potential to at least run safely under the car's index. Don't know if the body would make a difference. But we'll assume a Ventura, which would be similar to the Nova for this question.

After all these years, I assume there have been lots of dyno & drag strip testing of different 2-barrel carbs on sbc engines. Any links to any of the results of some of this testing that might show the power potential difference between small & large 2-barrels ? :confused:

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

It was a 350/2V car. I think that it ran in either W or X/SA during the "Pure Stock" era. I believe that he had a 77 LeMans wagon body stashed somewhere and he always wanted to do a 6X 400 for Q/SA.

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

Umm, the 73/350/224 has the 1.25V carb and to my knowledge nobody runs it. The popular combo is the 69-70/350/224 combo and it uses a 1.375V carb. BIG difference.

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

Hate be so ignorant about it. But I have to ask how many different size Roch 2-barrels were there ?

So, aprox how much would the 1.25V carb slow that sbc 350 ?

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

I believe there were three: 1.250, 1.312, 1.375
I was told the difference is about five tenths
MJ

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

Brought up this subject on the SS thread. Thought I'd inquire some more here.

Most all Stock class racers know about the "acid porting"(or whatever it's called nowadays) of Stocker heads, to increase flow and allow more power.

I assume that it was at one time illegal, but some guys got so good at doing it that it was sometimes hard for a younger, inexperienced tech guy to tell. So, I assume that NHRA just told the tech guys to let it slide. At that point, I assume that lots more guys started having it done, and head flow got even better, to the point that for many engines, if you don't have the latest, greatest head job technology applied to your heads, you can't hope to go really quick.

I also assume that's one of the reasons why the same combos that have been beat on for many years just keep getting quicker & quicker.

So, now that almost "everybody is doin it", aprox what is the cost to have the latest Stocker tricks applied to Stocker iron heads ? Are we talkin maybe $5,000 ? More ?

For you guys who have run Pontiac powered Stockers for a long time, how much difference in ET potential is there between as-cast iron heads, with the correct valve job done, and the heads that have had the full max-power Stocker head treatment done ?

Are we talkin a full sec ? 2 sec ? or ?

For the popular Pontiac 350, 400 & 455 Pontiac combos, what would ya'll say is the minimum head work that would have to be done to as-cast iron heads, just to make enuff power to run barely under the index ?

I know this seems like a stupid question, to many here. But, not everybody who loves Stocker racing has mega-bucks to spend on it. I know that the days of just driving your street car in the gate & being able to win a race are long gone.

But, I'm trying to see if there is a way to build a Pontiac combo that will not cost mega-bucks. I remember posting that I saw Don Turk's car for sale, for $10, 500. And, I've seen other race-ready, quick cars for less than $30k. So, for guys who can do most of there own work, there has got to be a way to build a slow Pontiac Stocker, for a very reasonable price. Obviously, $5,000 or more for head work, will increase the cost of that build, quite a bit. So, I'm just trying to see if one can be built without spending those big bucks on head work.

I remember the low budget build thread, that Brent Flynn did here, a few years back. I'm gonna go back & see what he did for heads.

http://classracer.com/classforum/sho...&postcount=222

So, as of early 2016, Brent did not have high dollar heads. Said he only had about $4k in his engine, with some cheap used rods/pistons. As mentioned, Adam Strang ran 10's with TRW pistons. They cost less than $350 now. And the legal 760g Eagle rods are less than $400.

http://classracer.com/classforum/sho...&postcount=228

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Speed-Pro-T...nd!71251!US!-1

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Eagle-CRS66...kAAOSwl7NaqCjn

At that time, he wanted to have some heads done, that would have cost $2-$3k.

Any useful insite into building a low(lower) budget, slow Pontiac Stocker, would be appreciated. :)

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

Mike, add to that the 1.09 and the 1.18. I've never seen a 1.31.
I think that does it for the large-base 2Gs.

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

http://classracer.com/classforum/showthread.php?t=44903

Ya know, as far as the other stuff, "Gentlemen don't tell".

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

I`m certain you are correct. I confused the 1 1/4 with the smaller size. Thought the others might be small base. Thanks Billy.
MJ

Re: Best Pontiac Powered Stockers
 

OK, I found something on Brent's thread that I wanna ask ya'll about.

http://classracer.com/classforum/sho...&postcount=250

I know that the Shubeck lifters, & I assume the tool steel lifters, are quite expensive.

BUT, he mentioned the Delphi lifters, that have the hardened foot. I wanna be sure as to exactly which lifters that is referring to.

The reason I'm interested is because I bought some Jegs lifters, because they were cheap & because they were said to be made in the USA. They cost under $50.

They do have the low groove, denoting the hardened foot.

So, I'd like to know if these are the lifters that were referred to in the linked post. OR, are we talking about some special lifter that Delphi makes for racing ?

Below are pics of my Delphi/Jegs lifters. I took one apart to show the guts. I also bought some real snap rings, from Fastenal, to replace the flimsy wire retainers the lifters come with.

By the way, Brent posted that he bought Rhoads V-max Super Lube lifters for his Stocker engine. Those now cost nearly $200. Rhoads says they use Hylift Johnson lifters cores, then modify 'em to make Rhoads lifters.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/r...w/make/pontiac

For a bigger cam, he was gonna have the cam & lifters "coated". So, how much does it cost to have a cam & lifters coated, nowadays. And how much extra life will it give to the cam ?