Ladder Bar Car: Trans Brake or Foot Brake?
 

Pertaining to the potential revival of a very good ladder bar Super Stocker (71 340 Cuda with outstanding weight distribution), I would like some input regarding the use of a trans brake, or staying with a foot brake scenario (the ladder bar setup will be retained). It has been mentioned to me that a car with a brake should be equipped with a 4-link for maximum effectiveness, whereas attempting to run a ladder bar car with a brake may cause some issues. Once again, this car has outstanding weight distribution, and was last run (consistent 10.70's) prior to cylinder head porting even being permitted. Also, it will not make another pass without wheelie bars, as it can go right to the stratosphere without hitching a ride on the Space Shuttle.

Thanks to all in advance for your help!

Bill Rolik

Re: Ladder Bar Car: Trans Brake or Foot Brake?
 

I once ran an AMX with ladder bars and a 451 mopar. I ran both the 727 and a PG with brakes on each. There were no issues. Even with it's wheelie bars it would go way up.
Right now I'm putting ladder bars on my car and it's a 4-speed. Sure a 4-link may allow more control but a full back-half & 4-link is just not in my budget right now. And I like the simplicity of a ladder bar also as it is less "track sensitive".

Re: Ladder Bar Car: Trans Brake or Foot Brake?
 

Bill, There are still some really great working cars out there with ladder bars. ........The key,as in any suspension is not how many attachments the links have ,but how you dampen them. .......A quality set of double adjustable shocks will allow you to make the ladder work nearly as well as the 4 link. .....The setup between foot and trans brake is one primarly of launch rpm ,converter design,and shock settings. ....Good luck with your return. .......Tom

Re: Ladder Bar Car: Trans Brake or Foot Brake?
 

Jeff,

Thanks for the reply.

In order to have the best chance to have this "revival" come together, budget is certainly one of the things to be considered here, but another would be simplicity. This car worked extremely well when I (along with car owner Bill Meerholz) drove it. I was always a big believer in good static weight distribution (important for "track sensitivity" too) with my Duster as well, and because of that, my belief is that the ladder bar, at least in this particular car, would be fine as is. Also, I was assuming that virtually everyone uses a brake, but perhaps that is not the case?

Bill Rolik

Re: Ladder Bar Car: Trans Brake or Foot Brake?
 

Wow,

AMXers are on the case!

Because I last drove in pre-historic times (1989), neither my Duster nor the Cuda benefitted from today's quality shocks. However, the Cuda at least had the orange Koni's on the front. 11.5 X 32 Firestones were all that was needed on the back. Since the Cuda is a bit of a lard-*** at 3500+ pounds, I am sure this was a factor. Also, I have never driven with a brake, so initially, I would go with the foot brake anyway.

Tom, thanks much for the input!

Bill Rolik

Re: Ladder Bar Car: Trans Brake or Foot Brake?
 

Tom is correct, shocks make all the difference. I would look at AFCO or Santuff.
Kip Martin has the SS/K record in the ten-teens with his 289/210 Mustang using ladder bars. And that car can go as high as any car out there! Interesting design too. The driver side bar is "toed in" quite a bit which allows him to launch with no pre-load to keep it straight. His 60' times are barely over 1.30.
I used to run an 11.5x29.5 on that old AMX. Worked very well for me.
I wonder if a 11.5x32 like your old Firestone is still available? I could probably use something like that.

Re: Ladder Bar Car: Trans Brake or Foot Brake?
 

Bill, you'd be suprised how many of the really good leaving ,quick cars in SS are on the foot brake. ....Many of these cars are faster on the foot because of converter flash and chassis hit. ....Mostly it comes down to driving style, which do you feel more comfortable with on the tree. ........I agree with Jeff, I'd go with Afco shocks,their valving selection is great for drag applications. .....An 11.5x32 is'nt available from Phoenix anymore,but the 12.2x31.25 still is @about a 100" rollout.......This used to be a real popular tire for medium HP SS cars a few years back, but lost favor when the radials took over. still a good choice for running the car in "bracket" mode......... ...Tom

Re: Ladder Bar Car: Trans Brake or Foot Brake?
 

Tom,

Thanks again for the reply.

AFCO at one time was strictly oval track-oriented, but I understand that their drag products are excellent as well. Also, I have known Sonny Stancil for many years, and he has always spoken highly of the Santhuff pieces. When I bought the Shadow GT car from Sonny, it had Koni's in the rear. And later, when he repurchased it from me (before it went to Ken Etter, who owns it now), Santhuff got the call again. At the appropriate time, I will investigate their offerings for a stock-bodied non-GT/non-strut car such as the Cuda.

Also, I used 12.2 X 31.25 "straight" and "W" tires on my Duster, which was equally as good with weight distribution, but weighed about 60 pounds less. I am sure the Cuda would do nicely with either one. The 5.86 gear (Dana) would remain initially. I see no scenario where the car would need a 14 X 32 tire. I have no history with radials, so that thought can be entertained at another time.

And yes, the initial approach would be to have properly matched shocks, retain the ladder bar, add wheelie bars, and for familiarity and simplicity, stay with the foot brake. Structurally, this is an outstanding car. But other peripherals, such as fuel system including cell, electrical upgrades, weather station, air shifter, aluminum radiator, current-technology cylinder heads/valve gear etc. would be needed. It does have Lamb front discs with drums in the rear. The short block that was in the car when last run would probably be tough to significantly improve on. A second option would be to go with a low compression 340 for GT/JA. Cosmetically, it is currently all White, with some color options being considered.

Sorry for being a bit long-winded, and thanks again for your help!

Bill Rolik

Re: Ladder Bar Car: Trans Brake or Foot Brake?
 

Why is everybody going to radials?

How do they hook when leaving at 5,000rpm-5,500rpm with a transbrake?

Re: Ladder Bar Car: Trans Brake or Foot Brake?
 

They are fast, stable to drive on, don't leak air ever, true tubeless, sidewalls last better, no growth, slim section width profile, no need for rim screws,...etc.

They work fine on my ride, Stock legal rear suspension, 3400-3600 two-step and 5250 stall coming off. Only 3250 lbs. or so, but 1.37 to 1.40's anywhere, anytime. Oh yeah, Atlas non-gas charged replacement shocks on the rear, and Stocker Stars on the front.

I like Goodyears, but that is for the compound selections, a Hoosier may be faster for some, on some tracks, but I bracket race.

Re: Ladder Bar Car: Trans Brake or Foot Brake?
 

Listen to Tom a set of double adjustable Afco's and if using coilovers I like to use a little stiffer spring on my car but I have my shocks mounted in front of rear. Trans or footbrake is drivers choice. They both are fast with the right set-up.
rod

Re: Ladder Bar Car: Trans Brake or Foot Brake?
 

Rod,

Input much appreciated!

Thanks,

Bill Rolik

Re: Ladder Bar Car: Trans Brake or Foot Brake?
 

Bill,

I have an older super stock camaro. I have a coil over/ladder bar setup in my car. I also leave on a trans brake. With a good 350 running SS/HA I ran 9.92 with 1.28 60 ft times. I now have a 327 in the car. it does not leave quite as hard. The car is very consistent. I do run a radial tire. I use the M/T 12.2x31.25 radial tire. I have had good luck with this tire. Hooks good and is much faster than the Hoosier bias ply tire that I ran prior to the radial. I back to backed the two tires and the radial was .013 quicker on several tests. I would recomend the radial tire. You will have to experiment with tire pressure to find the sweet spot for your car. Start at about 12 lbs. and work up from there. I have a single adjustable shock in the rear and double adjustables up front. I am happy with this setup. If you have leaf springs under your car now and change to coil overs make sure you install some good quality heim joints in the front of your ladder bars. The front heim is the only connection point to the frame. If this heim fails the rear end will move forward or backward and cause heavy body damage. Also you should instal a retention device at the front of the ladder bar around the heim to keep the rear end in place in the event of a failure. Most of the older cars do not have this. I had to retro fit my car after I converted from leaf springs to coil overs.
Good luck with your project

Re: Ladder Bar Car: Trans Brake or Foot Brake?
 

Mike,

Thanks much for the input, and impressive numbers!

I would think that the 327 would react exactly as you have said, given the shorter stroke which would produce less low end torque. The 340 Mopar is actually closer to a 327 in that regard than a 350, and with a longer and heavier rod.

Both my Duster previously, and the Cuda looking forward, utilized the Comp Engineering Ladder Link with retention loops and a housing slider. In those "thrilling days of yesteryear", a slight right-side preload added became basically a set-it-and-forget-it. Rear leaf springs were/are 3400 lb factory Mopar Super Stock springs (same both sides) and will be retained. Rear shocks were basic 50/50 drag shocks from whatever supplier was offering a quality piece at the time. Tires were 12.2 X 31.25 or "W", or 11.5 X 32. I seem to recall 15-16 lbs for pressure was normal for either car. Front shocks were 90/10 in the Duster and orange Koni's in the Cuda. I can tell you that the Cuda is much more of a wheelstand-prone car than the Duster, and required fairly tight front shocks. There is every reason to think that today's shocks all around would be an improvement.

The back-to-back improvement with the radials is impressive. I am curious as to a comparison between bias tires and radials in terms of pressure: Given one vs. the other of equal size and rollout, and on equal-width wheels, are there different pressure requirements/tendencies?

Given the advances in current technology, product offerings, and rules revisions, there is a LOT of catching up to do. Starting with "Square One" is the plan.

Bill Rolik

Re: Ladder Bar Car: Trans Brake or Foot Brake?
 

Are those the single adjustable QA1 R series stocker stars Goob? I'm looking for a bit smoother landing than what I'm gettin with the KONI's.

Re: Ladder Bar Car: Trans Brake or Foot Brake?
 

AFCO offers two unique valving specs that are an option. BNC & BNR. Stands for Bull-nose Compression & Bull-nose Rebound. You would use BNC on the front and BNR on the rear. What that means is the initial hit on either compression or rebound is very solid and less so a as the shock goes through it's travel.
I just had my 4 AFCO's revalved to this but have yet to run them so I can't say if it's worth doing. I also had the rear valving stiffened up considerably from what was offered initially. But keep in mind I'm a stick racer.
Opposite of what Rod stated earlier, I will be running a light spring on my rear coil-overs. That allows you to pre-load the spring to get the ride height and when you launch that stored energy is put to use. Rod having the shocks in front of the rear may have something to do with this as there is less leverage working the shock / spring.

Re: Ladder Bar Car: Trans Brake or Foot Brake?
 

Question for Dave and others. How do you manage not to creep at the line with 3400-3600 with your two step? Thanks

Eric

Re: Ladder Bar Car: Trans Brake or Foot Brake?
 

My car is pretty much like Mike's was before, older Super Stock car with Ladder Bars, Mono Leaf Floater, and Comp Engineering shocks. I leave at 5800 and the car reacts fine, my best 60 ft is in the 1.37/38 range and on a good pass the car will really get sky high. I would save the money and put it somewhere else if the car is working fine with the ladder bar.

Re: Ladder Bar Car: Trans Brake or Foot Brake?
 

Smitty,

Thanks for your thoughts. The mono-leafs are an interesting idea. Beyond that, any changes would be major, and beyond the realm of establishing a baseline.

Bill Rolik

SS 1514

Re: Ladder Bar Car: Trans Brake or Foot Brake?
 

My wife & I race a 71 Demon with a big block, currently runs 10.20s in good air. Car has SS springs &
snubber only, don't want to do a complete back half, been thinking about ladder bars & housing floater.
What type of floater is on your Cuda, weld on or a bolt on type such as Comp Engineering offers?
Thanks Steve Reynolds

Re: Ladder Bar Car: Trans Brake or Foot Brake?
 

Hi Bill you got the itch to race again nice to see it. Put a stick in it and double you fun. Steven Caltracs would work well on your car and a lot cheaper than ladder bars.
Someday the enhancements will stop and I will get enthused about my Challenger again.

Re: Ladder Bar Car: Trans Brake or Foot Brake?
 

Steve,

Send me your e-mail address and I will forward some photos of the floater arrangement.

My e-mail is bremotorsports@verizon.net

Thanks,

Bill Rolik

SS1514

Re: Ladder Bar Car: Trans Brake or Foot Brake?
 

Hey Rod,

If I were to put a stick in ANY race car (yeah, that's gonna happen), the only "enhancement" would be more breakage! You and Eric V. can keep that stuff to your self!

Bill Rolik