Shogun Stop It - does it work?
 

Has anyone used the Shogun Stop It? (see link below)

https://www.shogunindustries.com/cgi...ew_item=101003

If so, does it actually work?

Re: Shogun Stop It - does it work?
 

Its a type of electrical surge protector for the solinoid. Basicly like the one that is protecting your computer or TV just a bit different.

Re: Shogun Stop It - does it work?
 

I ran one in the nova, it seem to keep the spread closer together
Or it could have been that there was nothing else to blame.

Re: Shogun Stop It - does it work?
 

I had one, never new if it was working, Cant say it hurt either. How do you see the effects of it working?

Re: Shogun Stop It - does it work?
 

This illustration:

http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/9556/project1yl0.jpg

is a lab scope capture of a fuel injector but the same in theory.

A. Shows the 12 volt supply voltage.

B. Shows the voltage being pulled low as the trans brake button is being applied.

C. Shows the release of the Trans brake button and the inductive kick 60 VDC.

D. When the trans brake solenoid button is released , the magnetic field collapses, and this generates the inductive kick

If inductive kick was an issue for you, and the box worked as they claim it does…..at the release of the transbrake button you would no longer have that spike above 12vdc when the solenoid is released,

I have tested my car a few times over the years and never seen a issue with inductive kick. I believe this is product nothing more than a clipping diode? but I have never seen the inside of one, so I have no idea? Maybe the experts can chime in and elaborate?

I was told years ago by one of the manufactures of throttle stop timers I believe Biondo? ( I use a Mega 400) that the Mega 400 has diode protection built in, as does the Dedenbear and some other manufactures (so I was told….. and by no means to be taken as a fact)

Anyway you can measure inductive kick with a lab scope, a good graphing multi-meter, even a Digital Volt Ohm Meter. Set the DVOM to volts DC on min –max screen to catch it. Connect the - lead to a known good ground and the + lead to anyplace you want to test for high voltage and hold and release the trans brake button and measure the results)

I remember years back someone talking about inductive kick interfering with things like your throttle stop timer.....I guess thats possible? I run a position sensor on my throttle stop to my RacePak datalog to monitor for anomalies in stop time and position. (Thanks to H&C&G&G Racing for the help.)

Most of my issues to date are pilot error!

I’m writing a book on called “1001 Ways to lose” and am now working on chapter 239

HTH
Merry Christmas


http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r...k/squDrink.gif

Re: Shogun Stop It - does it work?
 

Thanks for the replys.

So Ruth, bottom line do you think it's worth running one? Also, do you think it would add more benefit to a non-delay box car?

Re: Shogun Stop It - does it work?
 

I used one for 3 races and 1 TNT, I had the most erratic reaction times I've ever had in 20 tears of racing.I took it and put it back in the box and was gonna ship it back and tell'em I wanted a refund but I figured that would be a waste of my time and money.I have about a .015 to .020 reaction time window,and once in a while I would have that WTF did that come from .045 light,and it was always in th 5th or 6 th round after a string of .015 or better reaction times. That is what the Stop It, is SUPPOSED TO CURE. Well, with it my reaction times were ALL OVER THE PLACE.I mean a swing of .015-.060,took it off and reaction times came right back where they were.I've hit the tree enough to know if I missed it.Anybody wants one I will sell it,almost new in the box.25.00 plus shipping.Thats half price and ten times more than it's worth.!! IMHO.

Re: Shogun Stop It - does it work?
 

All,

Put one in this year while we completely redid the car including the wiring with a K & R wiring kit. After analyzing all of my runs for the year, we had our most consistent year for reaction times, round wins and race wins. Now, the old guy driving needs some work but the car certainly did what it was supposed to do.

Can't say for sure it was the "Stop It" but we had some great results.

Mike Ferstl
SG SR 6091

Re: Shogun Stop It - does it work?
 

Can someone who owns a STOP IT use Ruth's test procedures as noted to actually verify whether it works. Better years than others and winning more rounds doesn't say much for validating the product.

Re: Shogun Stop It - does it work?
 

Had one and was having tons of problems with reaction times. I spoke to a couple of respected Trans guys and they told take it out and one told me to throw it in the lake at E town. I did and the car went back to normal.
I went one further and took it apart, scraped the rubber goo of it and I found a Capacitor and a Resistor wired in parallel. I called an Electronic Guru friend of mine and explained what I found and he told me it was a 1ohm resitor and a diode so that the voltage would not feed back. I measured the resistor and it was way off, something like 8 ohms of resistance. So that's like adding delay in the box. Also when I went to buy, it was explained that this maintained a constant voltage to the Trans brake solonoid. When I took it apart I expected to find some kind of circuit board or voltage filtering system, nothing like that.

I still have it to show people at the track when they ask about it. As far as the parts value, probably about $2.00.
My opinion and others, leave it out.

Regards,

Pat I
SG1809

Re: Shogun Stop It - does it work?
 

i once went to radio shack, bought a little black project box, gluded a few wires inside, ran the wires into the dash area, put a label on it that said "top secret" won a lot of races in the no electronics class. this little box started a lot of crap, but i could have sold many of these "units" due to the results. ever heard the phrase "one born every minute" some things we just don't need, i think this product is one of them, much like a placebo, if you think it made things better, than maybe it did, if only in your own mind.

Re: Shogun Stop It - does it work?
 

Keith,In the few years Ive known you, that is one of the best race stories you have told. All kidding aside, where do I buy one of these "Top Secret" boxes?

Re: Shogun Stop It - does it work?
 

Nova Nick

I have and use one and to me it apears to have elinated the WTF reaction times that would show every 8-10 rounds. Our reaction times definately appear to be more consistent now. However the change may just be the result of better grounding of the solenoid which is now grounded to the battery.

Sincerely
Billy Baer

Long and boring....
 

As an electrical engineer with 30+ years of experience and WAY too much time on my hands, I'll add my 2000 cents.

The concept behind the device is fairly reasonable, although the execution and price might not be.

A solenoid is nothing more than a hollow electromagnet with a movable element in its axis. When a solenoid is energized there is a strong magnetic field created which is especially concentrated in the hollow center. It is this magnetic force that moves the hydraulic valve controlling the trans-brake. When the solenoid is de-activated the magnetic field collapses on the windings which created the field to begin with. A changing magnetic flux induces a current in any electrical conductor which crosses the magnetic field lines as discovered by Faraday in 1831. This is the exact same phenomenon that is at work in an ignition coil (which is actually a transformer which has two electrical windings as opposed to the one in a solenoid). So the collapsing magnetic field induces a current in the solenoid windings even though the trans-brake switch is open.

If a current is induced in an electrical circuit, then it has to flow, regardless of how much resistance there is to that flow. Ohms law says that voltage = current times resistance (V=I*R). Since the trans-brake switch is open, it's resistance is essentially infinite (but not really) and the current is greater than zero, so that means that the voltage also has to rise toward infinity. Of course the voltage won't reach infinity since something in the circuit is going to be unable to withstand the rising voltage and will electrically break down, allowing the induced current to flow. In an ignition system, what gives is the resistance across the spark plug gap when the fuel/air mixture ionizes causing the current to flow very radidly in the form of a spark (unless you have a "bad" plug wire and it breaks down first, causing a miss in that cylinder).

The trans-brake circuit is part of the car's normally 12 volt electrical system. Since it is a low voltage system, there is usually something in the circuit which cannot withstand the voltage rising beyond 60 volts or so and whatever that something is will break down and conduct, allowing the induced current to flow.

Automotive electrical systems are some of the nastiest systems that engineers have ever had to deal with. There are all sorts of faults which must be tolerated, such as alternator load dumps, reversed batteries and horrendous EMI from the ignition system. Any properly design automotive electrical (and especially electronic) device will have circuitry whose purpose is to protect the device from excessive voltage. In almost every case, this protection circuitry will begin to conduct when the 12V input rises above a safe level for the device. It is this (these) path(s) where the current induced by the solenoid finds it's way to ground.

So, the graph shown in an earlier post is accurate in that it illustrates the voltage spike on the +12V circuit which can occur when a sufficiently large energized solenoid is de-energized.

So what? The fact of the matter is that the spike in voltage occurs AFTER the solenoid is de-energized, i.e., AFTER the trans-brake is released. The voltage spike is not going to re-energize the solenoid since the voltage is going the wrong direction for that to happen. The spike MIGHT affect other electrical (or electronic) devices that are on the 12V circuit, such as a delay box or ignition box, but these devices should have their own over-voltage protection. If they are properly designed they won't give a hoot about the voltage spike. If they ARE affected then THEY should find their way into the lake at E-town since they are not up to the task of operating in the inevitably nasty electrical system of a racecar.

So what is inside this "stop it" thingy? One post said it was a resistor and capacitor in parallel, then later said it was a resistor and a "diode so that the voltage wouldn't feed back". I have not been inside one of these things so I'm only speculating, but from an engineering perspective it makes no sense at all to have any capacitors in that box. A capacitor and resistor combination would cause an electrical delay which would likely vary with temperature and do nothing much to suppress the voltage spike, although it could spread it out over time depending on the values of the resistor and capacitor. An RC circuit would also act differently with different solenoids since their inductances are not all the same. More likely there is a low ohm resistor and a semiconductor known as a "transzorb" or "varistor" in series which makes the most sense electrically.

A "transzorb", a.k.a. "transient voltage suppressor" is a semiconductor which is specifically designed to limit the transient (i.e. short-term) voltage on an electrical circuit such as an 12V automotive supply. Physically it looks like a diode and electrically it sort of operates like a specific type of diode known as a "zener diode", but it is not the same thing. A transzorb reacts very quickly to voltages that exceed a particular level and is designed to absorb large amounts of power for very short periods of time, which is exactly the situation created when a large solenoid is de-energized. It's function is to "clamp" the power rail at a set voltage level (usually 18 to 20 volts for automotive use) and absorb any excess transient power that is on the rail. Putting a low value resistor in series with the transzorb would make sense to limit the current through the transzorb under extreme conditions.

So, my guess is that it what is in the box. If you have quality electronics on your car, they will be designed to withstand any voltage transients (probably with transzorbs of their own). You can buy a transzorb and resistor that would do the same thing as the box for less than a dollar, it just wouldn't be as pretty.

Damn, am I bored.... when do we start racing again?

Re: Long and boring....
 

Bill,

Excellent explaination and information, In my post I may have explained what I found wrong. It was an
1 ohm resistor and some on else said the other part was a diode. They were soldered together. It's in my trailer and if you want I can send you a picture of it. My guitar amp guy told me that it was a resistor from my description and the reading was way off from what it was supposed to be. Again excellent information on your part.

Regards,

Pat
SG1809

Re: Shogun Stop It - does it work?
 

Points style ignitions use a condensor to absorb the collapsong arc across the points. So get yourself a condensor and wire it onto the Positive side of the trans brake solinoid and ground the body of the unit.......I personnaly feel the biggest variable in the race car is the DRIVER. Just take a look at some of the best racers in the sport....ones that can repeat RT's in amost any car, anytime. The biggest variable in any car is the 'nut" behind the wheel and there is no gizmo or electronic device that can fix that......

Re: Shogun Stop It - does it work?
 

I do have a new one of these. I have never used it. If anyone wants to give it a try. Bill Harris, that is awsome. Jeff

Re: Shogun Stop It - does it work?
 

i have wondered about the show gun stop it. once delay box relay is released doesnt that cut connection between trans sol. and the rest of the elec. system?

Re: Shogun Stop It - does it work?
 

I fail to see how this could effect reaction times (as advertised). The thing it's protecting you from is the bump from the solenoid hitting, right? Once the solenoid has hit, the party's over, isn't it? Other than perhaps a throttle stop on/off, and maybe a shift, all the electrical stuff that effects r/t (delay, etc.) has already happened, right? Am I missing something?

Re: Shogun Stop It - does it work?
 

I guess it works... However, $50.00 is a bit much for something you can put together for about $5.00. I had an electrical engineer friend of mine build one for me. It took him about 15 minutes and a quick trip to Radio Shack for $5.00 worth of stuff. Like I said, $50.00 is pretty much all profit!

Re: Shogun Stop It - does it work?
 

If anyone is interested, I saved this quite a while ago, but I'm am totally lost when it comes to doing stuff like this. They, mention the STOP-IT at the end, but don't say whether it works or not. I have the irregular light from time to time, but I chalk it up to nerves most of the time. Anyone have any opinions on it?: http://www.computechracing.com/forum...hread.php?p=38

"Suppressing Solenoid Switching Reaction to Protect and Improve Computer System Performance:
If you have a transbrake, line lock, or any other solenoid on your car that consumes a significant amount of current when energized, then you should add a BYPASS DIODE to each and every one of them. This need also includes electric fuel pumps and the like. When the current is shut off to the electric coils inside these devices, they act much like the coil on an ignition system – they try to generate a large voltage and perhaps even a spark somewhere else in your electrical system. This reaction can disrupt and sometimes even damage computer equipment on your car. It does not matter if the coil and computer are directly wired to one another. The reaction of the coil can go through the power wiring of the car and even through the air like a radio signal.

A diode rated at 3-amps with a peak reverse voltage of several hundred volts is preferred. If this package does not include bypass diodes, Radio Shack part number 276-1143 will work. This is a type 1N5402 diode rated at 3 amps average current, 200 amps peak surge current, and 200V peak reverse voltage.

The installation location and direction of the diode are extremely important. For each device being bypassed, the diode should be wired as close to the device as possible, preferably connected directly to the device terminals or within one inch of the device. The diode will have an indicator on one end. That indicator will be a painted band or a pointed end. This end of the diode must be connected to the [sometimes] hot wire of the solenoid, coil, or motor. The other end of the diode should be connected to the other end of the device, which is often chassis ground. Note: connecting the diode backward may prevent operation of the bypassed device or else invisibly damage the diode. Warning: a damaged diode later connected in the correct direction will provide no protection at all.

((Diagram ommitted from this text))

NOTE that Shogun Industries (shogunindustries.com) produces “Stop-it”, a device specifically designed for eliminating this kind of noise problem caused by the transbrake solenoid. It’s more expensive than a diode, but is claimed to do a better job as well."

Re: Shogun Stop It - does it work?
 

you win a championship !

Re: Shogun Stop It - does it work?
 

Brandon, this seems like a whole lot of voodoo to me. There are probably 100,000 people actively racing cars, and I bet you can't find 10 who have done what this recommends. If this was really a problem, don't you think you'd hear about it all over the place? Don't you think Biondo and Dedenbear and RacePak and all the other people who make sensitive electronics for race cars put in power supplies that isolate them effectively? I know people who have been running the same delay boxes for years with no issues.

I think this is an electrical engineer who's chasing a theoretical problem, not an actual issue... Just my humble opinion. :)

As for the "Stop-It", the claim they make is that it will improve your reaction time by preventing the surge. But, the "surge" from the transbrake IS the reaction time, so any effect it might have (debatable) is too late...

Re: Shogun Stop It - does it work?
 

Resurrecting this old thread.

I recently bought a dragster from a guy that has one of these Stop-it boxes on it. I became interested in what it did since the previous owner of my car swore by it and I found this thread.

I took the Stop-it off of the car and took it apart. It is indeed a diode and a resistor. The diode is a 1N5402 and the resistor is 3 watt 1 ohm 5% wire wound type. So I think the purpose is solely for the protection of other devices on the 12V circuit as Bill Harris has so accurately described. Like Bill says, any computer equipment built for automotive use will typically have this same protection built in to the device already. This makes the Stop-it device kind of redundant. Its interesting that Computech was recommending this type of circuit and they make computer equipment for automotive use, hmm.

I have read on another forum that the manufacturer claimed it will fix the "where did that come from" reaction times that racers sometimes see by limiting the rising amount of current that flows through a solenoid the longer it stays energized. I think that is baloney. The Stop-it device is to cure problems that could result after the trans-brake releases and won't affect the release of the solenoid at all. http://www.v8buick.com/archive/index.php/t-198448.html

Once I scraped all the silicone off of the components in my box, I noticed that the resistor had turned brown, a sure sign of failure. I measured the resistance and sure enough, it was in the Meg-Ohms range, not the 1 Ohm range. So my box is actually burned up and probably had no affect at all even though the previous owner thought it did (kinda funny).

I noticed that the ShoGun web site is gone and perhaps out of business so I am unable to find the actual claims by the manufacturer. I did find a Stop-it that sold on ebay recently for $30 though.

Re: Shogun Stop It - does it work?
 

Bill from Shogun passed away last August, and his son Dave was recently killed in an auto accident.