Single channel O2
 

I'm looking for recommendations on a single channel O2 set up. My stocker has me frustrated, and I really think I'm out in left field fuel wise. My headers have a bung in each collector, so I'm equipped to install. Thoughts and recs would be appreciated. Thanks.

Re: Single channel O2
 

Dan, the best one I know of is a Dynojet. It has logging capability, and will log two extra channels besides air/fuel Vs RPM. I logged TPS when I was foot braking with the factory computer, so I knew when to start watching the air/fuel. You can also log fuel pressure, etc. It's not expensive, but is very reliable. You can download the logs to a lap top after the run.

Re: Single channel O2
 

I've got the FAST unit with one sensor. I'm going to add the second one.
It records and plays back on it's own screen.

Re: Single channel O2
 

I used an Innovate LM-1 to tune my LT-1 Firebird. Didn't know squat about EFI when I built this car and the LM-1 was a big help....and easy to operate. Record a run and download to a laptop and look at the log......Very nice software to manipulate the run logs.

Greg Kelley could easily get you fixed up with a recorder


.....http://www.motorsportsinnovations.com/





Handheld box/ set it on the passenger seat, push the button to record after doing a burnout and push it again at the end of the run. Disconnect the quick plug in cables and plug into laptop in trailer after the run...

A local ET racer demo'ed it for me and I loved it......

P.S. Dan.... we once had a short conversation at E-Town....You still had the EFI LT-1 Firebird and said you were going to dump it in favor of a '69 Camaro.....Was a good move! I sold mine as well.....and I'm glad I did....

Re: Single channel O2
 

Dan, I had horrible luck with the innovate stuff. We now have a race pack on Dad's car and I have the accel unit on the camaro that ties into the DFI. Both work very well, however the Racepak is only useful if you already have a data logger. The accel has a stand alone gauge and will log RPM/Driveshaft RPM and AFR

Re: Single channel O2
 

These units will work whether the car is "carburetor or injected"?? Dont' laugh!

Re: Single channel O2
 

Daytona Sensor has a really nice setup.



If you just want a digital readout you can easily see, the NGK Powerdex comes with a box that has the digital display that is easily read while driving, the sensor, the harness, and an output that will work with most data loggers.

Re: Single channel O2
 

Racepak sportsman with a sensor in each collector. You can also weld a bung on each header tube and move them around every run for individual tube readings. With as many runs as you make in a year you should have it dialed in quickly.

Racepak Software and USB card is easy, no fuss use and no special computer skill required.

-Matt Welker

Re: Single channel O2
 

I have the FAST dual channel on my car. It is easy to use but the numbers change so fast on playback you have to average out between he numbers. Best bet is go the racepak route. Cant go wrong.

Re: Single channel O2
 

Floyd, your using the XFI system? I bought the second FAST O2 for mine after fighting an injector problem through most of 2010, on the opposite side from the one O2 sensor. The second one does not read the same as the one that comes with the XFI system. Not even the same brand sensor. Very dissapointed. My two only agree around 12-1. If you have a carb, not the XFI, their stand alone wide band records air/ fuel versus time, not RPM. Air/fuel versus RPM is much more useful for tuning. I have seen way too many problems with the innovate deal. I personally wouldn't use it.

Re: Single channel O2
 

Racepak gets my vote too. I just have a single O2, but I have bungs in both collectors so I can move the sensor if I want. Call Greg Kelley at Innovate Motorsports at 609-265-2110. He has very good prices and most of all has great customer service. Very helpful if you need someone to walk you through any of the installation.

Dean

Re: Single channel O2
 

No laughing here, I asked the same question once. An AFR meter does not care what is metering the fuel. It measures an air to fuel ratio in the spent exhaust gases. Shoot for somewhere between 12.5 and 13.0. I use an AEM wideband gauge and tuning is now very easy.

Re: Single channel O2
 

Racepak too. Never had a customer regret going with them. That's what I'm putting on my new Stocker. Phil Mandella told me you still tune by your time slip, the racepak just tells you which direction to go. I have racers call and ask what number to look for and I tell them there's no magic number for everyone. I have customers that range from 12.8 to 13.6 each with fast cars. When you get a wide band Dan, you'll need to go to a test session and work on calibrating your Q-Jet to run the fastest and that will be your "Sweet Spot". Then when you get in different weather conditions your wide band will tell you if you need to lean or fatten it up. One of my friends and Super Stock customers has a Racepak and went testing Saturday with a carburetor that was completely different than the Edelbrock 1901 he usually runs. His car likes mid 13"s on the O2's. He guessed at the primary and secondary jetting and made his first pass. He could feel the car wasn't right in high gear. When he came back and down-loaded the run, the O2's were 15 in high gear. As Phil said, the Racepak told him which direction to go. I feel that a Racepak is one of the best investments a racer can put in his car. Takes a lot of guess work out of it and quickens the learning curve.

Re: Single channel O2
 

i have the innovation lm1
got it from sal
push button in staging lanes push button at scales
very easy to use and to hook up
help my car

Re: Single channel O2
 

Racepak by far the best value for the money.
Very easy to use .
They recomend having the sensor in the primary about 12" from the port for optimum performance, but I've tried both the primary and the collector for reading and found similar results, the primary readings are much easier to read as there is no dilution from outside o2.

Re: Single channel O2
 

I use the Altronics O2 Alert. It works great also.

Re: Single channel O2
 

I have sold thousands of the Innovate O2's in their various models (LM-1, LM-2, LC-1) and as much as I like them, I would recommend a Racepak Sportsman with a single O2.

The reasons are:

1. For any class with qualifying/limited runs you don't have time to mess with glitchy stuff and the RP hardware and software are rock solid. 16 volts can be a problem with some of the other brands as well.

2. If you have a carb/fuel system that's questionable you have to identify the exact spots it's bad (say during / after a wheelstand or at the shift) and the hand held units with the replay on the screen don't give you enough resolution. You have to download to a laptop and look at a graph that is based on a good sample rate. Likewise, if the problem is NOT the fuel system you want to rule that out quickly and with confidence.

3. So if you are going to get involved with the laptop RP has great support of the Windows 7, Vista and of course XP. Their kits come with the drivers for the USB converter and all the laptop accessories you need.

Dan or anyone else call/email me anytime with O2 or data logging questions. I'm a sponsor of the East Coast Stock/Superstock association and race my own junk every week (brackets / Top Dragster) with a million sensors into the Racepak.


Greg Kelley 609-265-2110

Re: Single channel O2
 

Fellows. I have worked with just about every unit out there. Most of you are quoting facts about something you have never run a test on. I welded up a header with 7 bungs so that I could run a test one against the other. I also purchased a test canister for testing against a known percentage. Do not make assumptions about how good a unit you use unless you know how it responds under different conditions and with which sensor it uses. I do not sale any of the units so mine was purely for testing. I was amazed At how different many of the units perform. First you better know what bit resolution (10 bit 12 bit 14 bit 16 bit or what). What is the response time. Does it data log or not? Does it take a snap shot or record every data point or take 5 counts and divide or what? What happens to the unit as the sensor starts getting Use time. All sensor slow down as they get run time, some as much as 50% or MORE. How well does it calibrate. Ease of setup should play very little part in it as you will only set it up one time. I am trying a new unit out of Canada now. Looks very promising. What some of these company did one year ago means nothing as many have made firmware changes as well as product changes. I saw above where one guy said how bad Innovate was. Their LM2 now is totally different than their LM1 and the LC1. FAST has made changes. You must review what they have now, not what they had one year ago. O2 sensors is a very fast evolving product market. All have problems or had problems. Separate the two. Purchase one time but know what you are getting and do mot be surprised that something better comes out right after you purchase it (just like Wide Screen TV's).
Hey yall, I sorry, got on a tangent. But electronics I love
charles

Re: Single channel O2
 

You might look into 14POINT7. One readout can monitor AFR, EGT, boost, fuel pressure, oil pressure and a few other things. Not to expensive which is a big plus for me.

Re: Single channel O2
 

Harry 6674---That is the unit from Canada that I am testing now. I have one of every sensor he has. So far every thing looks great. I speak with Alan most every day as I try the products. He is great to work with. If you all want to know the results as I test them, let me know. I have a oscilloscope hooked to the units now with dataloggers . Am trying old sensor vs new sensors now on the Dyno

Re: Single channel O2
 

I have a carb and they have a accessory for RPM. I'm putting that on when I do the second sensor.

Re: Single channel O2
 

That will make it a lot more useful. I know a couple of guys that need that RPM add-on. Guess it's fairly new?

Re: Single channel O2
 

It hasn't been out long. Check their website. I think it's $160 bucks.

Re: Single channel O2
 

How accurate is rpm pickup? My car isn't running yet so I haven't been able to compare it to the tach. I'm actually useing 2 on a siamised port chevy six with a turbo.

Re: Single channel O2
 

Harry_ i am trying the RPM sensor, egt, and oil pressure sensor now. I am recording off the ignition for tach and comparing it to the dyno rpm which I know to be accurate. I also have scope hooked to it to see also. I will know by end of week after more "testes". Price is reasonable. I have 5 of everything here now just to try. I have it hooked in with a FAST, A INNOVATE, NGK. and 4 of these so I can how it compares with each other. I will data log to the PC so I can map in Excel to make a chart/graph. I will PM you with results.
http://14point7.com/Products.php

Re: Single channel O2
 

x2! I'm brand spankin' new to EFI, just off my 3rd weekend out. Even if someone runs the same combination as you, there can be something different in either the data collection (type or location of the sensor) or other variables that make things radically different. Ultimately, you have to listen to what the car is telling you on the race track to determine what A/F ratio works best for YOUR setup. Took me til 1st round of eliminations this weekend to figure that out! LOL In the ballpark now, though. I still have a TON of learning to do. One of my issues right now is that I have no basis for what the numbers mean relative to each other. Is half a point in A/F ratio a lot, .25, or is a full point a big swing? Along the same line, I'll need to figure out how much change a single number or single percentage point on the fuel table really is.

Re: Single channel O2
 

Michael, if your VE table & injector flow rate are setup correctly a 1% change will get you a .1 change in air/fuel. For instance: +.1% will change 13.0-1 to 12.9-1, or -1% would make 13.0-1 to 13.1-1. If your 13-1 and want 12.5-1 subtract 5%. Are you using FAST XFI, or BigStuff3?

Re: Single channel O2
 

Michael,
There are sooo... many varaibles in tuning with O2's. I really agree with the idea that there is no "one" number for every combination. Cam overlap is one of the biggest players in what goes out the ex pipe, even low compression vs high compression will make a slight difference in the best O2 number.When you change cam C/L or valve lash or timing on your own combination that you are familar with and have data.. the O2's can change, usually do. The new O2 reading may or may not be the place the engine is happy and making peak power. The old O2 point may not be the best power setting with the changes. You have to search the combination/tune up for what makes the engine happy. A happy engine will usually make you happy because it is making power.
Oh, Please Read the plugs when making changes.... (don't be lazy.. does a plug wrench still fit your hand?) I know, I know it is so easy to take a reading of the data and pound that key board to make changes,,,, but reading the plug is the way to tell what is really going on in the combustion chamber. :~)

Re: Single channel O2
 

FAST XFI. Currently running in Alpha-N, closed loop, Target A/F at 12.5. Got it to 13.3 on Run #3 of the weekend at MIR, and it wouldn't get out of it's own way.

Question is, is 13.3 to 13.2 a big jump, is 13.3 to 13.0 a big jump, or is 13.3 to 12.5 a big jump? How much is 1,000' DA change likely to affect the A/F ratio (ballpark)?

Re: Single channel O2
 

Adger
I feel as you and others have stated, that there are so many variables, you cannot compare any two motors. What I like to do is have two (2) O2 sensor. One on each side. I do make sure they read the same side too side. But I also like to have at least one EGT on a cylinder that tells me when I have gone unresonably lean. I read spark plugs to keep me honest, but reading spark plugs, is very subjective from one person to another. And on top of that I have customers that just flat cant read spark plugs for crap. So I try to give them as much data as they can download and see. I tell them to always start out rich and lean down and watch time slips. When you get there, write down both EGT and both O2 readings. All this data are nothing but indicators. They are not the Bible. Some of it is scientific and some is black magic. It can mean the difference in .01 and .1 on the time slip.
sorry my .02 worth

Re: Single channel O2
 

Michael, 12.5 to 13.0 is a big jump. If you want to email me your calibration file (.gct) file and a log file of a run using it, I can probably put it to, or very close to, 12.5-1, then email it back to you.

Re: Single channel O2
 

Thank you very much to everyone for the input. I decided to go the Racepak direction through Greg Kelley at Motor Sports Innovations. He came highly recommended from everyone I spoke to, and my phone conversations with him have been outstanding. I'm certainly looking forward to getting the system installed and finally getting my stocker lined out. I know from the comp car how valuable the Racepak is, so even though I'm only getting the Sportsman version, I'm really excited to start acquiring data. Obviously, I'm a moron for not having one before. Now I just need to break down and get one for the poor SS car...LOL...

Thanks again to all...

Re: Single channel O2
 

Obviously...

Re: Single channel O2
 

Dan, with your record ( and the one our kids are quickly acquiring ), I don't think anyone can call you a moron.

Re: Single channel O2
 

Charles,
You hit the nail on the head with your last post.
It is just Data....not written in stone... I like to use the EGT cross reference along with reading plugs. As far as customers being able to read them you are right.. Some know a little about it some know a lot and some know a lot less than they think. Most of my customers/friends are told to learn as you go. Look at the plug and make a change you think is correct (that all other data suggests). Then after the tune up change look at the plug and see what changed. They should learn trends and what to expect. Like you said...Reading the plug Keeps the tune up honest..
Let's talk "Air" ...
Someone has mentioned DA, a lot. Well I'm not so sure all your faith should be put in DA. Doesn't everyone know you can get the same DA by having several totally different conditions? (Baro, Vapor Pressure, Humidity, Temps, ect..) It's when the conditions change that the engine goes from lean or rich or rich to lean. A good carb tuner knows he has a slight window that the carb will take care of when conditions change, a little, but not when they move a lot. I've always worked with mechanical FI that is Stupid. It only changes when you make the change or the pump is going away and you loose pressure, volume or both.....
This could be a good discussion..
OK What you guys say???
Beard, do you remember when we got bitten when we forgot to monitor the vapor pressure? :~)

Re: Single channel O2
 

Different brands of wide bands often don't read the same. Different engine combos don't want the same air/fuel ratio. My 358" SS engine with VP C11 likes 12.6 to 12.8, my old 383" 14.25-1 compression bracket engine on VP C12 likes 13.3-1 to 13.4-1, all according to my FAST XFI, and my old DynoJet dyno wire band agreed.

The LM1, LM2, LC1 stuff that came through my shop (kids installed them in their cars) were all over the place, some showed richer than mine, some leaner.

BigStuff3 systems agreed with my dyno wide band also. You just need to know what your car likes according to your wide band.

Like Adger said, it's just data. Only a reference.

Re: Single channel O2
 

You'll get there buddy! And ultimately you will be better off in the end getting there yourself and learning than sending it off to someone else to get tuned up.

One thing I always stress is to pull the plugs to verify O2 readings.

Re: Single channel O2
 

Adger
Data is one of the greatest things to come along in the last 10 years. I can remember when all we had was plug reading and a feel for what the weather conditions were and what was needed. Data, if correct, can make the changes much easier to anticipate. Nothing ticks me off more than when some one uses data to let them do something they had already made up their mind to do and they just wanted an excuse to do it. You can make numbers come out the way you want them if you want to. But if used properly they also can make our jobs so much more easy. that is one of the reason I keep a test gas canister near me when running O2. Keep it honest

Re: Single channel O2
 

Charles,
You are so right about using Data to do what you wanted to do. there is quite a lot of that going on. I'll never forget the first race where I helped tune a car with a RacePac....It was a long time ago. The owner was well healed and this was the first RP I had even seen. I had only read about them in ND.
That first night it taught us all a thing or two!! Racing wasn't the same, less cut and try, until 1991 when we first got the Super flow dyno... Talk about Data overload...
Well so much for the stroll down memory lane.
I do want to mention one other thing about using 02's to tune. Last year when I was doing Tech at the Engine Masters I noticed quite a few of engine guys tuned only with the 02.
You know that is O.K., but there was a problem with the fuel (that is another story) and most engines were running in detonation. You could watch and tell who the old school tuners were.
As a Tech Inspector I couldn't say anything to help the participants and it hurt me to watch the results of tuning an engine in detonation with a 02 sensor. If it detonates do yourself a favor and throw that data away. I'm sure it has a lot to do with the type sensor, but they can read some nasty nox when the engine detonates and give false readings. Learning to read plugs and crossreference data is important. OK, thanks for reading my ramble..... It's time to wash this nasty hone oil smell off and get in bed.

Re: Single channel O2
 

G,day Adger,
I'm not in you guys league at all, noticed a few posts ago about wanting to talk about air / da.
Would be interesting to keep this going i think!
used to race a petrol powered car over here in s/st and car would move .01/100 ft of da change, bet your life on it, was probably a bit fat but was very predictable.
Last major meeting of the 08/09 season that we won car ran on the numbers throughout qualifying, first round of racing had a red light in the other lane and run it through and ran a mile quicker, couldn't get my head around it untill i looked at the water grains, seemed to play a large part in it.
Have now converted to a carbed methanol deal and the water content seems to be a bigger thing than anything else?
When you were talking about watching guys tune with an 02 whilst having detonation what sort of things were you getting at? Just trying to learn here thanks

Charles - i have a daytona sensors wego3, what do you think of them? pm me if you like, the only thing that gets me a bit about it is you can't turn the logging on or off ( unless there is a feature i don't know about) and when you set the sample rate fine and have a car that you drive back to the pits, long return roads, stuck behind slow traffic etc when you go to down load it you find you have used up the recording time with the travelling back to the pits,
At small local tracks with a short return road it works ok.
Thanks!
Paul Dilley