Competetive 4-cylinders in Comp?
 

Who runs a competetive 4-cylinder Comp car, and what engine are they running?

Al Ackerman (engine ?)
Frank Aragona Jr. (engine ?)
Greco?

Re: Competitive 4-cylinders in Comp?
 

I'm a 4-cyl comp wannabe racer, so I go to the staging lanes when comp lines up when I'm not in my own race.

The Aragona cars have had a Mopar DOHC four recently, which I think is the same as a Mitsubishi. They also made a Subaru engine work very well.

Ackerman had a splayed-valve Chevy head on what I believe is a Pontiac Super Duty block

Charlie Greco's Opel that was driven by Dave Yediny had a combo similar to Ackerman's, but his Cobalt has a custom made block, also with a splayed-valve head.

Re: Competitive 4-cylinders in Comp?
 

Tony. Frank Aragona uses a 4 cylinder push rod motor (similar to the LA motor). Nothing resembles the DOHC Mopar motors. I run a 150 cube DOHC Modified production motor in my Superstocker SS/GS.
I believe the DOHC motors can be competitive at around 135 cubes. If you can get a car light enough.

Re: Competitive 4-cylinders in Comp?
 

Art, you may be right about their current combo. When the altered was first brought out,(maybe 2008 or 2009?), the engine had "MOPAR" on the big valve cover. I asked Frank Jr. what kind of engine it was as he strapping in, and he looked at me like I was stupid, and said "Mopar". I had clearly picked a bad time to be asking dumb questions.

Re: Competitive 4-cylinders in Comp?
 

It is (was?) a Mopar 4 cylinder. Just not like the ones the power Neons or PT Cruisers.
Same number of cylinders after that there is nothing in common.

Re: Competetive 4-cylinders in Comp?
 

I understand now. In fact, the engine I was thinking of has 4 valves, which wouldn't be legal in the altered class they run.

So what year & model would this pushrod engine be from?

Re: Competetive 4-cylinders in Comp?
 

Tony, It's basically half a Hemi. It was an engine that was used in the Indy Light series.

Re: Competetive 4-cylinders in Comp?
 

Aragona utilizes a Mopar A-4 cylinder block along with the new style Pro Stock Hemi head---if you are thinking about a 4 cylinder be fore-warned you will end up making/fabricating many of your parts and you have to either be a machinist have friend that will work for free or have access to a machine shop to do that---good luck "come in the waters fine"

Re: Competetive 4-cylinders in Comp?
 

This is very true. I thought my engine would have a decent array of performance parts, because of the interest in the SRT4. Well I soon learned that if it doesn't have a turbo and a manual trans. You were on your own.
The first 2 years I ran my car I used an intake manifold from a dodge caravan. And cams that would check legal in a stocker. Camshafts were almost not available for a N/A engine (nobody had cores) My exhaust cam is a stock cam that has been welded to increase lift,
Things as simple as a 2 step were a challange. I had a trans brake made one of 2 in the world. My final drive (rear end gearing to you RWD guys) ratio is 3.94, and thats with custom made gears.
But little by little I'm getting it sorted out. I have had some help from the soft index. But with the amount of one-of's I need I deserve it.

Re: Competetive 4-cylinders in Comp?
 

You can run a four valve, four cylinder in H/EA-we have one in my car-Al Ackerman built it using a block and head out of the Colorado pick-up-it is a 2.9 liter motor (177 cubic inches) in stock form-we race it at 170 cubic inches. For H/EA, the motor must use carbs and the weight break is 8.25 lb.cubic inch. Fuel injection can be used in L/A or L/AA and the weight break is 10 lb/cubic inch (2 valve) or 10.5 lb/cubic inch (4 valve)..

Professor Dave

Re: Competetive 4-cylinders in Comp?
 

New car on west coast with 4 cyl honda engine Has gone .60 under

Josh lee H/EA Good to see new blood and manufacturer in comp


Here is link http://honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=3012466

Re: Competetive 4-cylinders in Comp?
 

Sounds like the Honda is run at 134"? How are the H/EA power numbers compared to the L/A and F/D?

I'm talking hp per inch here....

Re: Competetive 4-cylinders in Comp?
 

My engine builder (Al Ackerman) never tells me those things-since his motors have always made my car go fast, I've never really pushed him of the subject either. Plus the real value of a dyno is not what the HP numbers are but how the HP numbers change as you make a tuning change.

Re: Competetive 4-cylinders in Comp?
 

I'm sorry, I'm not really looking for specifics. More so, I'm wondering if the engines in the few 4-cyl comp classes all make similar #'s. I have no idea what it takes to be competetive in Comp., but it seams that all the competetive engines are quite large for 4-cylinders. I'm looking to run a FWD car in SS, with a 4-valve combo. Due to the high weight of a SS car, and the SS/CX class' 12lbs. per cu.in., I'll be somewhere in the neighborhood of 164" or so. That in itself is a pretty big 4-cylinder, but the 200" stuff like the F/D guys seem to be running is even bigger. I'd heard that there was someone running a 122" Honda in F/D, but that would require a car that's 40% lighter than a 200" Splayed valve deal.

I would really like to talk with someone that's running a competetive n/a Comp 4-cylinder to see if my thoughts of power requirements are even in the ballpark. It does nobody any good to spend a bunch of money to NOT BE competetive.

I can be reached at brian@phenixindustries.com if anyone is willing to give me a little guidance.

Re: Competetive 4-cylinders in Comp?
 

I have considered running a turbo-charged front wheel drive car in comp. Have you thought about that?
Here's our car
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRNXM...AivRJypYq4XNsR

Re: Competetive 4-cylinders in Comp?
 

Tim Kish, Larry Dowty, and myself run (or have run) FWD cars in SS/GS. We have different approches to the goal. Larry ran a Quad 4 engine and a manual trans. Tim runs a 120 inch neon engine and an auto trans. I run a 150 SRT4 block and an auto trans. All 4 valve heads.
All of us have run 13.0's or better. At 18 pounds per inch. And each of us has got the index hit.
These 4 cylinders make a lot of power. But I'm not sure you can get a car light enough to run 12 pounds per inch.
And expect to get an awful lot of hand made "one of's". And they aren't cheap.
In superstock with the breakout I'm sure you can build a competive car, but in comp it might be another thing.
One big problem is final drive (gear) ratio. Most factory final drives are in the low three's. And this makes for a major problem
Welcome to the 4 cylinder world.

Re: Competetive 4-cylinders in Comp?
 

You don't have to tell me about the one-off parts. People have come a long way with the auto trans cars recently. That's why we were considering it.

Re: Competetive 4-cylinders in Comp?
 

If you are going to drive off the front wheels. The trans themselves are fine. I even have a fully functional trans brake for the chrysler fwd trans. The gear ratio is the major hurdle. I have a custom set of side gears, and the biggest we could go is a 3.94 ratio with out extensive work to the trans case.
Before people b1tch about the indexs for the front drive cars. They should think about how fast a rwd car could go if they were restricted to a 4.0 rear gear.

Re: Competetive 4-cylinders in Comp?
 

Have you looked into SS/EX?
I think you’re going to have a hard time running the 10.80 SS/CX index when you can't modify the front clip enough to make it work. SS/EX index is 10.50, you could run methanol, engine location and body mod rules are a lot more liberal, Its 11.5 lbs per inch and you won't have to compete with 260+ cubic inch V6 RWD cars that can run 1.00 in bracket mode and are only going to bring the SS/CX index down. Good luck, we need more of these cars

Re: Competetive 4-cylinders in Comp?
 

Gary one of the problems with SS/EX is the index With a soup to nuts top notch car you can probably run 9.70's (in real good air) But that might not even get you in the field at Indy.
You still have to deal with the drawbacks related to FWD. The far better class is SS/GS (the class I run) Heavy (18 pounds per cube) but a much softer index (for now). I've run 12.70's all over the place. And I believe that a properly done effort could run 12.3's.
My car has been in the process of change for 5 years and still is. A smaller stroke would help me, and as of now (and the rest of this year) I'm running a set of street headers (no step or merge)

Re: Competetive 4-cylinders in Comp?
 

With RWD conversions allowed, what sort of limits are there on the front clip? I understand that the body panels must resemble OEM pieces, does the radiator core support have to remain untouched? Also, engine placement doesn't seem to be an issue with Rwd conversions being allowed?

That's the wierd thing about the SS/MX classes, their more like a Comp class run with SS procedural rules, right?

Re: Competetive 4-cylinders in Comp?
 

The engine can't be moved more than 10% of the wheelbase from stock. Also, SS/EX was introduced for All Motor Import cars. I'm sure Art could tell you about how much you have to do to the front fenders that would make it not resemble stock. SS/EX would be a lot more freindly in that area as well as the wt break is .5 lighter. Thats 60 lbs in your car, only .30 index diff.

Re: Competetive 4-cylinders in Comp?
 

The big difference in the EX class is it has to remain FWD.
I had a problem with NHRA a couple of years ago. I had aftermarket fiberglass fenders (which are allowed in my class). Nobodys makes a racing (lightweight) fender for a neon, so I bought a set of street fenders. They had loovers in them (like the Z cars).
I run all the inners fenders, so there was absolutly no air stream advantage. I ran them for 2 years without any problems. But when I ran at the E'town national race. I was told they were not legal. That I had to replace them before I could race again, letters stating that were sent to all division directors, and myself.
I could have just bondo'd the holes up and stuck a decal over them. But I went to my trusty computer, went on ebay and bought a pair of steel replacement fenders. I also bought a different fiberglass hood (my old one with the Hemi scoop cost me 1 to 2 mph)
I bought a LPHV spray gun at Harbor Freight. And some paint at Pep Boys. And learned how to paint a little.
The replacement fenders were each 6 pounds lighter than the fiberglass ones were. So I had to get a bigger battery to make up the difference.

Re: Competetive 4-cylinders in Comp?
 

The NHRA SS/CX rules closely mirror the Street All Motor rules used by the FWD crowd. Right now there are a few Honda's running 10.0-10.19's @ 2150lbs. with 164" engines, on gas. The "Pro" All-motor FWD cars are in the 9.0's-9.20's @ 1700lbs. with 164" engines. NHRA's rules for the SS/CX class are a bit more open than the Street All Motor rules, as well as coming in about 100lbs. lighter in weight. I am fairly confident that I can get in the 10.0-10.10's range in SS/CX trim @ 2050lbs. with a 164" engine.

Who's capable of running more than .700 under in SS/CX? Does than matter anywhere but at Indy? <---- Sorry, I'm a noob here!

Re: Competetive 4-cylinders in Comp?
 

I was talking about SS/EX I'm pretty sure Scott Kelly has run .7 or so under with his Scion.
SS/CX is a RWD class. FWD conversion means you change a FWD car to a RWD car. That makes a world of difference.

Re: Competetive 4-cylinders in Comp?
 

Yes RWD conversions are ALLOWED in SS/CX, but are not mandatory per NHRA tech...

Re: Competetive 4-cylinders in Comp?
 

I'm sure you "could" run it in SS/CX and run the index, but why? SS/EX is only .30 difference. From what you say, you could run under that index easy anyway without all the added benifits SS/EX offers.
Just about every SS/CX car can run a second under, not that it matters because there are so few, but its just not fair RWD vs FWD

Re: Competetive 4-cylinders in Comp?
 

There are just many drawbacks with a FWD to be able to run headsup with an equal RWD car. It won't even be close.

Re: Competetive 4-cylinders in Comp?
 

Let's not argue the virtues of RWD or FWD since it's a moot point if you can't get a car down to minimum weight for the engine size if it's a RWD conversion @ 164"...

Re: Competetive 4-cylinders in Comp?
 

I'm not familiar with the type of car you are planning on running. But on my Neon trans is 60 pounds heavier than an stock A727 trans, my axles are heavier than a lightweight driveshaft. And I don't know exactly what my rear axle weights granted it is a lot lighter than a lightweight rearend.
I would gladly give up the weight. To use any gear ratio. Plus any tire (right now I use 20" tall tires that look like doughtnut spares). The highest I cross the finish line is 7200. My motor should make power past 8500.
The reason I don't turn the motor sideways (LOL) is the expense. And the index.

Re: Competetive 4-cylinders in Comp?
 

They need to add a class in Comp for front-wheel drive N/A cars. Most young guys into the 4-cyl stuff race in heads - up classes. At least Comp is not bracket racing.