Front End Suspension, NHRA Rule Question
 

Please excuse me if this is a dumb question. I am building my first race car, with my Dad, and we had a question about the NHRA rule for stock eliminator cars.

Section 10, page 7 states: "Must retain complete stock front suspension system as produced by manufacturer for body used, aftermarket tie rods with Heim joints permitted. Lift kits/travel limiters prohibited. Sway bar optional. SeeGeneral Regulations 3:4."

I don't think that everyone uses stock rubber bushings and I know that racers don't use stock front shocks either. Don't know about what people run for ball joints, but I believe that I want to reduce stiction in the front suspension. That being said would a drag kit like offered by Global West be NHRA legal to run on our 1969 Chevelle?

http://www.globalwest.net/dragracingsuspensionkits.html

Thanks in advance guys/ gals!

Re: Front End Suspension, NHRA Rule Question
 

Andy,
Yes, you can use the global west bushings and you can even use a longer ball joint such as the ones offered by AFCO.

Re: Front End Suspension, NHRA Rule Question
 

Thanks Terry. I am going to pursue the different options out there, including Afco as you recommended.

The last time our car was raced was in 1978 as a stocker. I was minus 1 yrs old then and the rules have changed a bit since then. The car means a whole heck of a lot more to me and my Dad than it's monetary value on the market. I am going to take the time to post the build of it on here, because I really dig reading and checking out other peoples stuff.

Re: Front End Suspension, NHRA Rule Question
 

The global west stuff is nice, but hard to install.... I would go with the greasable afco bushings, that's what I put on my car after talking with greg hill, they are very very free now..

Re: Front End Suspension, NHRA Rule Question
 

Delrin bushings are nice but the same can be accomplished as a means to reducing stiction with black polygraphite bushings by clearancing the inner sleeve and adding zerk fittings to the outer shell. Longer ball joints than are available from either afco or howe are a must in an effort to gain much needed travel along with the right coil springs. But if you want the best setup, contact Alf Wiebe.


[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbKYio6OvKM"]THE PROOF IS IN THE PERFORMANCE - YouTube[/ame]

Re: Front End Suspension, NHRA Rule Question
 

Thanks Fleming, who is Greg Hill?

Re: Front End Suspension, NHRA Rule Question
 

Thanks 1320racer, I run the prototype machine shop at work so I could modify parts too, or just buy them. I will do some research on Alf as well. If our car could leave like the one on the video, i would be happy!

Re: Front End Suspension, NHRA Rule Question
 

Nice video, it bounced to much off the wheel stand. :)

Re: Front End Suspension, NHRA Rule Question
 

Had single adjustable gas charged Koni shocks upfront. With the then new engine/power, it needed and I would have installed AFCO BNC DA had I not sold it.

Andy getting a GM A body to leave like my former car with 59% of its 3880 lbs. on the front wheels is about everything being right. BTW, that is footbraked launched at 2500 RPM and Todd witnessed it carry the front wheels much much farther.

Re: Front End Suspension, NHRA Rule Question
 

Then build yourself some needle bearing a-arm bushing replacements!

Re: Front End Suspension, NHRA Rule Question
 

I installed global west kit with factory cross shafts in mine, since i was unsure of the aftermarket shaft, Easy as pie. It also has upper ball joint spacers, aluminum, about 1/2". 350/255 combo leaves pretty hard, But not like the above crazy hp big block bracket car that should stop commenting on the class racers board.

Chris Chapman

Re: Front End Suspension, NHRA Rule Question
 

Jeff,

First and foremost I want to be a race track, running this car with my Dad, Father's Day weekend of 2014. Then run it for the summer and start picking it apart after that. At that point, it's ON! I am lucky to have access to a full CNC machine shop, Solidworks and I can TIG weld. With off site access to laser scanners and feral arms, my only limitation is the time and obtaining actual proven racing knowledge from cats like you on here. Thanks.

Re: Front End Suspension, NHRA Rule Question
 

Good to know Chris, thanks. We are have the same combo as you, so hearing it from you validates what I thought about the kits. Global West makes good stuff from what I have seen in person and installed. Were you unsure of the cross being legal, was that the concern? Or strength?

Re: Front End Suspension, NHRA Rule Question
 

Andy, those cross shafts aren't any better than stock and more important they will do nothing as it relates to making this car work.

That said, there is no one posting on the net that knows better how to make these cars with small tires and stock/aftermarket/bolt on suspension work better than I. Further, there are only 2 other Chevelles and 1 Buick GS in the country last I knew or cared that are on par with my former car and they belong to Kevin Borgstrom '69 Chevelle B/SA , Ralph Landolfi '71 Chevelle B/SA(if he hasn't sold the chevelle yet) and Jason Line '71 Buick C/SA and what do they all have in common...they all run front and rear suspension kits designed, built and sold by Alf Wiebe and only one, the heaviest and least geared had 60 footed 1.28.;)

IF you want your car to work like mine and theirs, he's the guy you need to speak to. Do it right the first time. There is no bolt on suspension kit/parts on par, no mind better.

Be advised, that even with the best, the end user still needs to tune the suspension and chassis to achieve the results I have which becomes evident once you know that the chevelle in the other lane in my video below also has the same suspension components as my car, going down the track with his front wheels on the ground at 10 seconds in while my car which btw weighed ~ 180 lbs. more IIRC is still carrying the wheels.

Re: Front End Suspension, NHRA Rule Question
 

I did buy stock upper control arm bushings and machine the "teeth" off the ends of them, then took brake cylinder hone and honed the inside of the bushing so that it slid on and off the shaft easily, then greased them really good, I used the moog kit with the offset upper shafts.. It was really free moving after I tightened everything up and saves you a ton of money.. if you look on alot of the good working stockers alot of them are this way..

Re: Front End Suspension, NHRA Rule Question
 

Thanks for input. I have only heard good things about his setup and will give it the due diligence in researching it. I plan right now to eventually design and make my own (2, 3 years down the road). Maybe it will work good, maybe it may even work great, but it also may suck eggs, big ones. I thrive on the challenge and I am driven to optimize all of the systems in the race car. I also have no problem admitting that I everyday I am keep learning how much I don't know. My Dad is the engine guy, and he can hold his own, and I am diving into the fabrication side of the deal. I have lots of respect out there walking the walk...and I want to walk that walk too. But I don't want to follow in anyone's footsteps either...:)

Re: Front End Suspension, NHRA Rule Question
 

all I'll say is that everything that can be be done, has been done with these near 50 year old cars as the rules stand now. Would love to hear and see how you made out with this car in 3 years. Do come back and show us.

Re: Front End Suspension, NHRA Rule Question
 

Thanks Fleming. I found the 'teeth' you are talking about. (Thanks Google) At the very least I am going to hone fit the parts together. We are going to rip the whole front end of the car in the coming weeks, to put new solid body mounts it, while keeping rubber under the radiator support. Then start the process of building it up from there.

Re: Front End Suspension, NHRA Rule Question
 

removing the "teeth" aka serrations has been done for at least 40 years. The bushings I referenced do not have serations.

Re: Front End Suspension, NHRA Rule Question
 

I got that part and it's all good. I have a defect of often trying to re-invent the wheel. Even in the end if my 'wheel' performs the same and cost a lot more than buying it from someone, I can say that I made it, from scratch. I will share any and all that widgets that I come up with as the project progresses.

Re: Front End Suspension, NHRA Rule Question
 

To each his own, I'm in this to compete not to try to reinvent the wheel, spending years trying to build a better mouse trap while my life and another season passes me by.

Keep in mind also that with the best working stock eliminator cars, it's not what you see but what you don't see that sets them apart. The devil is in the details and sometimes illegal or at the very least gray.;)

Anyway, good luck on your endeavor.

Re: Front End Suspension, NHRA Rule Question
 

All valid points dude. Racing and doing it with my family is what matters most to me. The rest is just gravy.

Re: Front End Suspension, NHRA Rule Question
 

For the A body gm cars you will want to talk to Alf, his stuff got my car leaving so hard it uncovered some "weak links" and starting causing damage because of a fuel bog...He helped out with a fix for that too!

Re: Front End Suspension, NHRA Rule Question
 

The stuff from Alf front and back are hands down the best pieces you can buy and use for an Abody GM. Everybody with an Abody drag car uses these pieces.
If you are on a budget for the rear suspension, an Anti Roll bar from BMR or H&R, along with adjustable upper arms and no hop bars with multi mounting positions is the way to go.
For the front, del alum bushings with the extended length upper balljoints is the way to go. Alf sells a kit with all that stuff, and controll arm shafts that works great.

Re: Front End Suspension, NHRA Rule Question
 

I have heard nothing but great things about the Alf stuff,but not EVERYBODY with an A body drag car uses these pieces.

I agree that if you are down horsepower,the best suspension in the world will not suddenly pick you up a half of a second.

Re: Front End Suspension, NHRA Rule Question
 

that comment had nothing to do with HP and I agree, "everybody" with an A body drag car does not use Alf's stuff.

Re: Front End Suspension, NHRA Rule Question
 

I miswrote that, I should have wrote that something to the effect of " The high HP and serious no holes barred race cars have that in them. Not the budget minded cars

Re: Front End Suspension, NHRA Rule Question
 

So you are saying that your car would still pull the wheels like it did in the video if you had an engine with a 2 barrel carb?

All because you have your suspension figured out?

Re: Front End Suspension, NHRA Rule Question
 

Hasn't there been more than one thread on Alf and when racers try to get ahold of him he seems to be out of business? Please correct me if I'm wrong. But thats the sense I get.

Re: Front End Suspension, NHRA Rule Question
 

Sounds like a good guy. Do you have his contact info or website/blog, etc to check out his stuff and get prices? Thanks -ATF

Re: Front End Suspension, NHRA Rule Question
 

Alf does not have a website/blog/catalog, etc. There's no checking out his stuff and getting prices other than speaking to and looking over the cars of racers using his stuff. Alf builds a limited number of kits a year after payment in full is received.

Re: Front End Suspension, NHRA Rule Question
 

My car had the old school bushing trick, but when a bolt backed out and so did the bushing I decided it was time to make it right with global wests. I was concerned with wheter theyre shafts would be legal or so I used my stock shafts. Also it does not have any weibe chassis parts, and I have no intention of changing because it works excellent as is. Someday it may become a problem as power levels increase yes, but not anytime in the near future.

Re: Front End Suspension, NHRA Rule Question
 

After all my research, I went with...
Afco steel bushings
Afco low friction ball joints
Global West shafts
Speed Tech bump steer kit and solid body bushings
I spent a lot of time paying attention to the big wheelstand cars. There was no other option, Santhuff shocks and Landrum spings to finish the front.

Re: Front End Suspension, NHRA Rule Question
 

Then basically, your promoting a "club" that maybe you get into, maybe you don't. I'm quite sure everything that Alf makes is top-notch but if a newbie can't locate him and I don't see a phone number listed, and even if you did contact him he only builds limited production then it may as well be a fantasy.

Re: Front End Suspension, NHRA Rule Question
 

Is ALF an Indian (the country) Company?

Alf Engineering Pvt Ltd is a leading OE manufacturer of automotive Chassis, and currently manufactures over 1200 frames/day from its plants across India.

Re: Front End Suspension, NHRA Rule Question
 

Never mind the India country.....I believe you are talking about Alf Wiebe suspension parts.

One comment I found:
yes the kit is designed for completely stock bolt on suspensions, but also i think a lot of people overlook the horsepower levels its designed for, i have yet to see anyone mention its limitations in that category. it is basically designed as a ladder bar conversion, the upper arms are converted into a wishbone locator, that does nothing but hold the rear laterally. this really short ic makes the car hit the tires extremely hard and therefore will get a heavy low hp(600 or less) car moving FAST. theres on universally disliked individual that has been running alfs suspension for a while and loves to post pictures of his car with the front end 6' in the air running mid tens. if he put more power to the car, it would get a lot harder to tame. it would either hit the tires hard enough to spin them or make the car want to stand up way to high.

But, this seems to talk about rear suspension that is a replacement for stock rear suspension. I believe the thread is about front suspension.

It really doesn't matter to me. If you believe that you have he best stuff....go with it. I certainly will not try to sell you on what I use, I know it works for my cars, but might not for yours.

Re: Front End Suspension, NHRA Rule Question
 

Didn't ALF have a TV. show a few years back, wasn't he some kind of alien???????

Re: Front End Suspension, NHRA Rule Question
 

Thanks, I am going to do my full study and do something similar. Buying parts and pieces that are the best balance of performance & price.

Re: Front End Suspension, NHRA Rule Question
 

Thanks for the input. Underlying message received from you, the others who have posted on here, and the pm's I have received. I have a build thread on this car and will be updating as progress is made. :)

Re: Front End Suspension, NHRA Rule Question
 

Most people remove old bushings with a blunt air chisel after putting rust penetrant on the areas where the bushings are pressed onto the arms. It is fairly common for the holes in the arms to be a little out of square, either factory, from use, or after removing the old bushings. You will find out when you try the solid steel bushings; bushings with soft inserts mask the issue. You may have to open up the holes in the arms a little, tack weld the outer bushing sleeves, and check for alignment with a 1/2" rod and the inner sleeves. Then you bend the ends of the arms until alignment is perfect. Upper arm bushings are often one piece and you just weld the bushings in as best you can, after opening up the holes in the arms enough to achieve perfect alignment. Press fit is OK if you end up with perfect alignment, and that may not happen. Use either high pressure chassis grease or moly cam lube on the friction surfaces.