Do these numbers look right?
 

One screenshot is car idling, the other is at 2500 rpms. Still running rich as hell. I am out of things to check and not familiar enough with DFI to change anything internal.

Re: Do these numbers look right?
 

Bobby, according to that, your air/fuel ratio is over 14:1. That's not rich, that's lean.

Re: Do these numbers look right?
 

Where is the O2 sensor located? If it's in the collector, how far from the end?
I had all kinds of problems trying to tune for low rpms. Till I put in an upstream O2 sensor.

Re: Do these numbers look right?
 

Art has a point. If your wideband is in the collector, try sliding about a 2ft extension on that collector to tune low rpm stuff. The reversion is killing your accuracy, that won't be a problem at WOT

Re: Do these numbers look right?
 

I do have it in the collector but I'm running in open loop so there is no correction coming from the o2 sensor. With that said, the air fuel ratio isn't fluctuating at all which seems odd.

Re: Do these numbers look right?
 

Bobby,
I was a driveability mechanic for a number of years & my stocker is pre-computer. That said, I'm not familiar with this software. I don't know if it disregards O2 input in open loop but beside's the 14.35 AFR in both graph's the "O2 FBK" is 0 as well. I don't know how cold PA is right now but to get the coolant to 80, that 02 should read something. What I really don't like is the MAP is reading almost atmospheric @ 1200. 7.5ms pulse width is really fat for idle, it does go to 6ms, still fat, revved up but the MAP still looks low.. Vacuum line problem, dead MAP, ........ do you have spare parts that you can A.B.A. test with ? Can you also backprobe the 02 connector with a DVOM to get an actual reading from it ? Does this use the stock MAP sensor ?

Re: Do these numbers look right?
 

As Chad said, put an extension on the collectors for idle & part throttle. Unless you have had eight wide bands in the primary tubes to verify all eight cylinders are equal (they never are unless it has been put into sequential mode for cylinder-to-cylinder tuning) putting one upstream may or may not be accurate. Ten percent variation between cylinders is not unusual. At WOT, using one upstream, your indicated 13-1 a/f could be 12-1 or 14-1 on most other cylinders. EGT is not an accurate indicator either. Things other that air/fuel effect EGTs. Most agree that the average you see in the collector is best indicator if individual cylinder-to -cylinder tuning has not been done. Don't tie yourself into some magic number, find the air/fuel ratio makes your car run the best MPH numbers. Don't worry about what somebody else's car likes. Cars I have worked with like somewhere between 12.5-1 and 13.25-1 @ WOT. Mine likes about 14-1 idling & on the return road, with extensions on the headers, it's always in open loop.
Me tuning extensions are 3' long, with a 45 deg bend in the middle.
Your results might vary. LOL

Re: Do these numbers look right?
 

When my O2 sensor went bad it made the car run really rich, hey don't like to be knocked around.
Try a new sensor along with the other good advise above.

Re: Do these numbers look right?
 

But wouldn't "open loop" behave as though there is no o2 sensor connected? It all comes down to MAP sensor and Intake Temperatures, correct? Is there anyone I could possibly send the DFI box to for checking? I feel there might be something internal going on.

Re: Do these numbers look right?
 

Open loop ignores the O2 sensors. Used only for a tuning reference when logging runs.

Re: Do these numbers look right?
 

Ok, Bobby how bout this. Where is your MAP located..in the ECU or out, in either case why don't you try this. Disconnect the vacuum hose from the engine that hooks to your MAP sensor install a hand operated vacuum pump and pull a vacuum on sensor to around 40ish PKA see how your Pulse width responds, it should go down. Looks like the MAP is very high in the idle shot you posted, other than that and the fact your P.W. looks extremely high the rest looks normal to me. Another check is to use your vacuum pump and pull a vacuum...read the gage (on the pump) and see if it is close to what your ECU is reading. this should tell you if the MAP is skewed or not. Please try this if you can and let us know the results. Not knowing your set up (engine size, injectors cam, ect.) I'm merely guessing but I'd expect to see maybe 2.9-3.? M.S. of pulse width at idle. Again good luck. Joe, Bobby I also noticed you have nearly 2 volts difference in batt. voltage. Though I don't believe that is causing the issue you have you need to be aware that voltage has a direct effect on the injector "on time" just something to think about. On another note does your ECU have any type of "blending function" to blend between the TPS and the MAP sensor to correct for poor MAP signal @ idle?

Re: Do these numbers look right?
 

Bobby, if you can please try the test I described using a hand held vacuum pump as I'm quite certain the MAP input you're seeing at idle is the cause of your rich fuel mixture. Please try and see if the gage and your MAP reading on the laptop agree while applying vacuum to it...you can do that with the engine off. If they are off by a wide margin then there you go, if not then please post up the results of bringing the MAP to around 40ish with the engine running and see if your pulse width number decreases. Joe

Re: Do these numbers look right?
 

I can't read his gauges on my phone.
My raggedy-azzed junk idles about 65 KPA.

Re: Do these numbers look right?
 

It show's -1.9 psi @ idle & -6 @ 2500. Your 65 KPa @ idle converts to -9.5 psi. On the scanner I used to use it would show an actual O2 reading & a light would come on showing when it went into closed loop. Does this software do that ?

Re: Do these numbers look right?
 

Ed, his is 86.xx KPA @ idle. Reason for my reply, not far off Baro, tells ECU engine is under heavy load (well you know that) reason for extra fuel.

Re: Do these numbers look right?
 

If open loop the O2 Sensor is out of the equation but stills is reading way lean if the plugs are showing very rich.

If the MAP sensor is the problem why not just unplug it. The ECU should go to a predetermined value and should adjust the fueling with TPS and Temp Sensors. Probably very similar to Alpha N.

Go into the fueling map while running and lean out the cells being used paying attention to the idle rpm and how the car sounds.

Lower the fuel pressure will lean out the whole map.

Just throwing out ideas.

If the sensors you are using are all used unknowns get everything new, Rock Auto is about as cheap as you may find unless your local parts supplier gives you a good discount.

If you are not confident in working with the fuel map call your tuner or bring the car back to him. May be money well spent.

Re: Do these numbers look right?
 

Bobby e-mail pics of your DFI plugs to Tony and me so we can see if it matches up to ours
our DFI's are much older but if the harness plugs match up we should be able to test it for you on our cars. if all is well the readings should be the sameon our laptop

Re: Do these numbers look right?
 

86 KPA is way wrong.

Re: Do these numbers look right?
 

Guys thank you very much for all the replies and advice. I'm at work and just got a free min to check my phone. All I checked on map sensor today was I watched the voltage drop when pumping but didn't do an exact measurement of hand pump HG to laptop kpa display cause I had to leave. Alex and Tony I will snap pics of those plugs when I get home. Also David Barton thank you for your generous offer.

Re: Do these numbers look right?
 

I'm confused because a conversion table says says 86kpa is 12psi so why am I idling at -2 psi? Anyways my vacuum pump is inHg.. so now I have to convert that also.

Re: Do these numbers look right?
 

I'm afraid I can't help with the conversion however I do know that on a properly functioning engine (stock) I'll see between 35-40 KPA at idle. With the larger overlaps in the race cams that signal very diminished...which is what you're seeing. Looking at your 2 screen shots you can see when you rev it up the vacuum gets much better and the KPA number goes down, also your pulse width goes lower (less fuel) indicating to me that with the MAP reading it's providing @ idle the ECU "thinks the engine is being loaded, hence the increase in fuel. Have you checked to see what the MAP shows with the engine off? Also it looks like you have a display of vacuum on the screen, though I'm unsure of the exact scale they are using. Have you tried using the vacuum pump to decrease your MAP down to a lower number and see if it improves your fuel rate? Last question...when it was tuned by your tuner did it behave in this manner?

Re: Do these numbers look right?
 

The control panel of the software show's almost all the conversion you need. The dial to the left of the tach & above battery voltage show's vacuum in PSI. The small box below the voltage dial, third from the left, is vacuum in KPA. To convert PSI to inches of vacuum, multiply by 2. (-15 psi is 30" of vacuum, -2 psi is 4" of vacuum)

Re: Do these numbers look right?
 

Dave, good info, I've honestly never thought of the conversion as I've become accustomed to using only the KPA reading. BTW Bobby have you any news regarding your tune and the possibilty of blending the MAP and TPS in the lower cells?

Re: Do these numbers look right?
 

MAP sensor is fine. I emailed the saved tune to my tuner and he and I went through it over phone and said all looked well with no weird numbers. So I decided to do a third compression check and number 8 was a little iffy for the first time, why it wasn't before bothers me but I did this one cold before ever starting the car. Pulled the head off and the intake valve is bent. Hit the piston when the rocker had loosened up on that last pass. No real damage to the piston thankfully. So now I feel like a complete idiot and this is what I get for trying to do all this without the help of my dad because I want to learn this stuff on my own. I'm hoping that this caused the over-fueling by tricking the MAP sensor into thinking the engine was under load since number 8 wasn't firing correctly? If not then I still have another issue. I will find out when I get the head back and put it back together. Thanks for your help.

Re: Do these numbers look right?
 

Bobby - what combo is the system on? a race car? let me know.
what is it doing - loading up and stalling?

3 quick things
1 - an 02 sensor won't be hot enough to work correctly or read accurately at idle (unless it has a pre-heating element in it - some do, some don't) so tuning a car at idle is trial and error.
2 - your coolant temp is 80 degrees - it could be running rich because it thinks its in warm-up mode - faulty temp sensors can do that too - they are cheap I'd change that as well.
3 - i dont know what your running it on but sometimes the throttle blades need to be opened up and the TPS reposition to read right.

b

Re: Do these numbers look right?
 

Bobby, first don't beat yourself up over it, learning new things can be a daunting task, second it makes perfect sense that the intake valve being bent was allowing pressure back into the intake manifold throwing your MAP reading out in left field. Congrats on finding it and please let us know how it runs after the repair. Joe

Re: Do these numbers look right?
 

Don't know if this will help. But some tuners aren't concerned with low rpms, just horsepower and torque. I brought my car home from a dyno tune a couple of years ago. And it was so rich my eyes were tearing when I put the car in the trailer. I then tried to tune it down low. And made it worse. I went to the track and tried to tune the leave and slowed it up half a second. My plugs would get sooty black driving around the pits. Tried changing plugs, wires etc. No help.
Then I thought about it a while. I was leaving with a 2 step. Which I thought would make it rich, because it wasn't burning fuel in 1/4 of the holes. Then it dawned on me that it is an "Oxygen" sensor not an unburnt fuel sensor. Also I found that below 4000 rpms my wide band O2 sensor in the collector was useless (unless I put a 3' extension on it).
I put in an upstream O2 sensor about 14" from the valve. I use that to tune low rpms. When leaving using the 2 step I just try one thing or another and if it picks up I try a little more till it slows. If it slows right away I go the other way. 99% of the time I have dead hook so no variables there.