How far under index?
 

I know at National events qualifying is based on how far under the index you can go, but how far under do you really need to be to be competitive?

I only ask because I am finishing a long overdue project 1997 Mustang Cobra with the "Freshened" 4v and a 5 speed for Stock. Plan on running either F or G/S and while I may only be able to run some divisional events this year, my question is what should I be looking for to be able to qualify at most National events as well?

We have done quite a bit of work to the car inclusive of all the legal and accepted chassis mods, and have it right at weight, with a beefed up rear, good axles and a gear we think is right for now. I know a 5 speed car is at a disadvantage over the automatics but this is what I have to work with and I LOVE driving the 5 speed.

So again looking for a little help with how fast I should really be, and how do they run class eliminations now, its been years since I did this.

Re: How far under index?
 

F and G stick can be tough classes, especially in Division 2 and Division 3. Guys like Beeler, Walther, Welfel when he gets the deuce sorted out, and a few others, are tough.

However, heads up races are not common.

Re: How far under index?
 

I am not looking for anything spectacular from this build to start with, maybe .3 under if that. I know I have to build a purpose built "Stock" motor in order to run well, which I am contemplating, but for now just want to have some fun without having my butt handed to me too badly...

Re: How far under index?
 

When I ran G in 2009, under the old index, I could run around 0.6-0.7 under, Walther and Beeler could both beat me with ease. They're both considerably faster than they were then, and if Welfel gets the deuce squared away, he'll be right there with them. There are a couple of others. In E, F, G, 0.3 under is not even close to being in the ball park.

Re: How far under index?
 

In the 12 years since I put a stick in mine other than class run offs I've had one heads up race. There are very few G/S cars. The odds are very slim you will have a heads up. Put it together and go out and have fun.

Re: How far under index?
 

You need to be about -1.0 to be competitive in heads up, but as Bob said you should be able to go have fun without worrying about having a heads up every race you go to. Just make your weight where you can change classes if you need to, which will allow you to get in the class that has the least or no cars for the time being.

Re: How far under index?
 

I believe the only national event you have to worry about not qualifying is the US Nationals in Indy.

Re: How far under index?
 

If you get an entry fee paid, just worry about getting under the index. Then go from there.

Re: How far under index?
 

Not too many heads-up match ups in F or G stick in D1, either. As long as you can run the index or better, you are in the eliminator. Class run-offs are another story. Finish it and get some seat time. Like Bob said, have fun.
Best wishes
Mike A114
P/SA

Re: How far under index?
 

You should be able to run .3 under with the 4 valve stock long block.
Possibly with the stock cams, but your suspension setup would need to be spot on.

As posted above, I believe the odds of you ever getting paired up during eliminations with an another stick car in the same class are slim.

Re: How far under index?
 

My definition of "competitive" in Stock Eliminator is whatever it takes to qualify @ the US Nationals, usually .850 or quicker under.

A Stocker running .850 or more under stands a decent chance of qualifying at any event once you pay your entry fees.

Now, class eliminations....that's another story.

Re: How far under index?
 

How about .01 OVER the index. Except for INDY and heads up, 3 under to .01 over is about the same (given that .01 over can be done in poor conditions)
Of course you have to dial the index, but you eliminate breaking out to some degree

I've had 2 races (at Topeka's wind tunnel) where my opponent could not run the index but had to dial it. Made me very nervous as they could run all out

Just another view

Re: How far under index?
 

With the exception of Indy all National events have quotas below a full field so qualifying is a non issue granted you can run the index and have enough grade points to enter. Like the others have said I wouldn't worry too much about heads up runs in your class not a very populated class like A-D/SA.

Re: How far under index?
 

Build it, run it, and enjoy! Welcome to stock. Get under it under the index and go from there.

Re: How far under index?
 

I can't over state what Bob is saying........there are people that can't sleep at night because they spent their last dime to be a tenth faster, we don't need any more drama in class racing, if you are a hobby sportsman enjoy being that, keep the money in your pocket and spend it on a nice steak with some friends after qualifying.

Re: How far under index?
 

Now, I think THAT's some good advice right there !

Re: How far under index?
 

X2!

Re: How far under index?
 

If it will run index, be consistent and you can cut a light you are ready to spend the money to enter a divisional or national. Otherwise you are only wasting your money to enter a race. Test, test, test until you have the car and you sorted out. If you run into a heads up so be it, otherwise why build a class car? If the car, clutch and trans are setup right you can be consistent too.

Good luck and have fun!

Re: How far under index?
 

Don't forget about the Sports Nationals they only take the fastest 128 in stock and super stock.

Re: How far under index?
 

As Larry indicated plus the Vegas Divisional in November had a full field and some pretty quick cars were on the sideline after qualifying...but if you're in Tampa then Vegas might not be in your plans. One big advantage of a stick combo is the lower likelihood of a heads up but in any case if you plan on going up to Bristol in the heat then you better be .4 under in order to run the index (no altitude adjustment for Bristol anymore). World of difference in cost to build a .2-.3 under car than a 1.0 under one.

Re: How far under index?
 

Good advice, right there. :) -Al

Re: How far under index?
 

^^ I agree.

I calculated the cost ( including the cost of the car itself) to get my newer model Mustang to run 2 tenths under the K/SA index.
Then I added up all the "good stuff" needed to run 9 tenths under and it doubled the price.
7 tenths doubled the cost
:eek:

Re: How far under index?
 

The only people that will tell you that a stick is a disadvantage are people that race automatics or haven't raced stickshifts in many many years. The equipment in terms of clutches and transmission choices are excellent! A car can be set up to run rounds without having to dive into the bellhousing either. There are some considerations when building a stick car, especially with drivetrain, but as far as driving and winning, they are competitive and way more fun! There is not a lot of money to be had racing so you damn better have fun! LOL. Welcome!

Re: How far under index?
 

Forget the drama and heartbreak of qualifying. Go out and get a 302 FFFord, put a stick in it and you will qualify very well.

If that is not your choice, then just bust your butt with what you have and listen to people who say work on your stuff.

Or, do what you want and have fun.

Ron Ortiz
U/SA did I say have fun

Re: How far under index?
 

Fatherly advice from someone with not enough sense to quit. Run your car, lots of little things you can do without major expense. Get a golf cart. Bring beer ( or your choice). Race, have fun, take the cart, ride around , lie about how much hp you got and how your opponent is cheating, drink beer. Sleep well. Repeat as necessary.

Re: How far under index?
 

Truer words never spoken,

Re: How far under index?
 

And a US Nationals Wally to cap it off, not a bad way to race (and nobody is ruling you out for a repeat performance).

Re: How far under index?
 

We're all glad you haven't come to your senses yet Mr Jeff! This also sounds like alot of people I know haha.

Re: How far under index?
 

Thank You everyone for the advice and all. The key to this build is and will remain to have fun.

I have been away from class racing for some time, can anyone tell me how class eliminations work now? What is with the Combo?

Re: How far under index?
 

When there isn't another car in your class you get put in with other cars that also don't have another car in their class. You are both dialed by your indexes. Whomever crosses finish line first wins (providing no red light).

Re: How far under index?
 

I like this guys AGENDA. Jeff bring that 69 1/2 out once in a while!!!

Re: How far under index?
 

... also, one combo for sticks, one for automatics..
Mike A114
P/SA

Re: How far under index?
 

I hope I'm not giving away secrets or making anyone mad by saying this:learn everything you can about qualifying to the 1000' line. Qualify as slow as you can then pick it up if you need to. With a decent log you can extrapolate enough to dial in to the quarter from your 1000' data. It took me a couple of years to start doing this but as the owner/builder/driver of a .6 under C/SA car I can assure you that it made all the difference. Your experience will be different with a rare stick car I'm sure but every race I go to has at least one car that can "eat my lunch" heads up and you better believe they're gunning for me! I'm just a guy on a budget trying to have fun with my old Max Wedge and it's really all good when I'm racing but I need every advantage I can think of that doesn't cost a bunch more money. Finish your car and come on in, the water's fine!

Re: How far under index?
 

I'm just impressed you used the word Extrapolate!

Re: How far under index?
 

"Extra-polate" Does that have to do with dentures?

Re: How far under index?
 

Freddie, my advice is use Dragracecentral.com as your friend. Go back to all of the events you would plan on attending, look at the stock qualifying and class runs. Even look at eliminations. That will tell you who runs in your class(s). and how fast they are.

Re: How far under index?
 

Bryan is correct , and I'm surprised no one had brought it up.
The info you are seeking is not exactly a secret.

I am curious as to how you are going to use a 5-speed. I assume the one it comes with?

Re: How far under index?
 

I have been looking at several options for 5 speeds. There are a few good OEM Ford units available, like the T5 with Liberty gears and internals, G-Force also does a well built OEM T-5, then there is also the TREMEC series of trans were availalbe in many Mustang GT's.

Re: How far under index?
 

^^ This

Re: How far under index?
 

3 options if you use factory 5 speeds...T5, T45, and Tremec3650

A beefed up T5 or T45 with a modulaqr blowproof bellhousing might work.
Astro Performance can build one.
Hanlon Motorsports can build one with Liberty internals.

Up until this year, there were a lot of Coyote Stock racers in the NMRA using a beefed T5 behind a 5.0 Coyote modular crate engine running mid 10's.


If you go with a 2002-2004 Tremec 3650 that came in the Mustang GT those years it will require a Hanlon Motorsports adater to fit it to a sfi bellhousing like the Quicktime bellhousing.