Original hemi dart information

[Liteweight]

Originally Posted by Charlie A

Any possibility there was a twin(not a tribute) Wildfire Dart? (or any other that might be yours)

Overbooked pros used duplicate painted cars with other drivers from time to time.

There was only one Ronnie Sox but there were several "Sox&Martin" cars on the tracks.

Just wondering.

Charlie
Possible, but not likely. As J Schiels has previously posted Tim & Bob were a small race team with very little backing.They were mechanics in the Town & Country Dodge dealership. When I spoke with Tim, he didn't mention a second car.
A second car probably isn't likely

liteweight

[JCShiels]

Originally Posted by Liteweight

Charlie
Possible, but not likely. As J Schiels has previously posted Tim & Bob were a small race team with very little backing.They were mechanics in the Town & Country Dodge dealership. When I spoke with Tim, he didn't mention a second car.
A second car probably isn't likely

liteweight

There was no second car, no possible way.

[Liteweight]

Something that everyone, including myself is assuming on this thing is that the red & silver that was on it previous to being chemically stripped in 1985 is the same paint that was applied in the 68-70 time frame. We've all been comparing pictures from that era.
Now, remember these were race cars, not show cars. They got beat on. They changed owners many times. What's the chance of this car having the same paint on it in 1985 that it had in 1968?? It's possible, but not likely. Specially since there were wheel well mods that were done to it sometime in the 70's. I am convinced tho, it was silver & red when Vignonia's owned it because of the head count that remember it that way.
Super Stock kinda took a dive in the 70's, & as such there just aren't alot of pictures from that era. Alot of these cars just weren't competitive & they became yesterday's headlines. My car in particular went to bracket racing, so the chance of finding a picture of it in the 70's is probably pretty slim.
I think where I need to concentrate on is locating the owner who had it when it was bracket raced in the mid to late 70's. I gotta find info specifically about the 1977 NED Bracket Nationals. I have contacted the NHRA Guru, Bob Frey to do some digging on this, & am waiting his reply. Anybody reading this have some info they can help me with?. There was a brochure for that event, but I haven't been able to source one yet. I'm thinking there might be a name attached to a 68 Dart that would have been in print.
The other way of doing it is to weed out all the cars that are known/ documented to exist today & start searching for the unknowns. This way would be very difficult tho, as each car would have to be individually sourced. And if Mark Janaky, with all his contacts & vast experience hasn't been able to do it, I probably won't be able to either.
But, anyway here is a list of original Hemi Darts that the whereabouts are not known

Mary Ann Foss ( Go Hummer) OH
Manhatten Speed Shop
Joe Patel (MA)
Bob Banning (VA) stick car ??
Ken Bradley (TX) Second THT car. stick??
Johnny Rivers (MN)
Cookie Duster stick car?
Robert Alton/Tim Wing Dart (MI) WildFire
Tom Spanbauer Dart (WI) (went to CA in about 1970)
Atlantic Dodge (CA)
Colonial Dodge (MI)
Bob Banning Dodge (MD)
Denny Kilbane (OH) (may still be in OH)
Dave Price (CA) (Butch Leal)
Grand Island Dodge (NE)
Cicero Dodge (NY)
The above is from a list of the first 50 cars, & since mine is in that build frame, it'll be in there somewhere. There could also be a couple others due to lack of documentation & hear say, but these are pretty much concrete as of 06.
If anyone can help in ID'ing these, MAN, WOULD I APPRECIATE IT.

liteweight

[Hemi Moose]

Originally Posted by Liteweight

Something that everyone, including myself is assuming on this thing is that the red & silver that was on it previous to being chemically stripped in 1985 is the same paint that was applied in the 68-70 time frame. We've all been comparing pictures from that era.
Now, remember these were race cars, not show cars. They got beat on. They changed owners many times. What's the chance of this car having the same paint on it in 1985 that it had in 1968?? It's possible, but not likely. Specially since there were wheel well mods that were done to it sometime in the 70's. I am convinced tho, it was silver & red when Vignonia's owned it because of the head count that remember it that way.
Super Stock kinda took a dive in the 70's, & as such there just aren't alot of pictures from that era. Alot of these cars just weren't competitive & they became yesterday's headlines. My car in particular went to bracket racing, so the chance of finding a picture of it in the 70's is probably pretty slim.
I think where I need to concentrate on is locating the owner who had it when it was bracket raced in the mid to late 70's. I gotta find info specifically about the 1977 NED Bracket Nationals. I have contacted the NHRA Guru, Bob Frey to do some digging on this, & am waiting his reply. Anybody reading this have some info they can help me with?. There was a brochure for that event, but I haven't been able to source one yet. I'm thinking there might be a name attached to a 68 Dart that would have been in print.
The other way of doing it is to weed out all the cars that are known/ documented to exist today & start searching for the unknowns. This way would be very difficult tho, as each car would have to be individually sourced. And if Mark Janaky, with all his contacts & vast experience hasn't been able to do it, I probably won't be able to either.
But, anyway here is a list of original Hemi Darts that the whereabouts are not known

Mary Ann Foss ( Go Hummer) OH
Manhatten Speed Shop
Joe Patel (MA)
Bob Banning (VA) stick car ??
Ken Bradley (TX) Second THT car. stick??
Johnny Rivers (MN)
Cookie Duster stick car?
Robert Alton/Tim Wing Dart (MI) WildFire
Tom Spanbauer Dart (WI) (went to CA in about 1970)
Atlantic Dodge (CA)
Colonial Dodge (MI)
Bob Banning Dodge (MD)
Denny Kilbane (OH) (may still be in OH)
Dave Price (CA) (Butch Leal)
Grand Island Dodge (NE)
Cicero Dodge (NY)
The above is from a list of the first 50 cars, & since mine is in that build frame, it'll be in there somewhere. There could also be a couple others due to lack of documentation & hear say, but these are pretty much concrete as of 06.
If anyone can help in ID'ing these, MAN, WOULD I APPRECIATE IT.

liteweight

Judging by the first restoration attempt done to this '68 Hemi Dart where they chemically stripped the paint off the car (as seen in the previous photos) this tells me that there was "layers of paint" on this car already!!!

Next, in that list of unaccounted L023's have you even checked to see which one Al Kirschenbaum owned because he had a brand new one in '68 but didn't own it for very long...maybe Bob Frey knows him.

[jimi]

Originally Posted by Hemi Moose

Judging by the first restoration attempt done to this '68 Hemi Dart where they chemically stripped the paint off the car (as seen in the previous photos) this tells me that there was "layers of paint" on this car already!!!

Next, in that list of unaccounted L023's have you even checked to see which one Al Kirschenbaum owned because he had a brand new one in '68 but didn't own it for very long...maybe Bob Frey knows him.

Kirschenbaum was from Long Island? And he has a brother as well if I remember correctly. Don't they have a very large collection of mopar parts and s

[Hemi Moose]

Originally Posted by jimi

Kirschenbaum was from Long Island? And he has a brother as well if I remember correctly. Don't they have a very large collection of mopar parts and s

Jimi, Al Kirschenbaum wrote articles & road tests for various magazines back in the day...and I believe I read the story that the L023 ended up being the Speedwin Hemi Dart now that my memory has kicked in.

On another note, you seem to keep bringing up the Charlie Castaldo '68 Hemi Dart that you saw in your dads shop back then, and I don't disagree with what you saw back then, but I do have few questions if you don't mind...do you remember what year this was roughly, and it was more that likely Charlie's second Hemi Dart, the one he bought off of Tom Crutchfield...you have said in some previous posts that the floor was cut out for access to the 4 speed...also do you recall if this car also had radiused wheel wells, that were normally larger that the factory Hemi Darts came with because it sure sounds like it was Charlies second car that you saw back then...unless you can remember any other details about it?

.

[Liteweight]

Originally Posted by Hemi Moose

Jimi, Al Kirschenbaum wrote articles & road tests for various magazines back in the day...and I believe I read the story that the L023 ended up being the Speedwin Hemi Dart now that my memory has kicked in.

On another note, you seem to keep bringing up the Charlie Castaldo '68 Hemi Dart that you saw in your dads shop back then, and I don't disagree with what you saw back then, but I do have few questions if you don't mind...do you remember what year this was roughly, and it was more that likely Charlie's second Hemi Dart, the one he bought off of Tom Crutchfield...you have said in some previous posts that the floor was cut out for access to the 4 speed...also do you recall if this car also had radiused wheel wells, that were normally larger that the factory Hemi Darts came with because it sure sounds like it was Charlies second car that you saw back then...unless you can remember any other details about it?

.

Nope, not Charlie's second Dart either.This auto car was copper & silver when he campaigned it in Super Stock. When Charlie changed the car up to A/MP for 1970 he also changed it's paint to red & yellow with the flared rear wells. He installed a stick to be competitive in A/MP & did cut the trans tunnel out of it for easier trans service. He also cut the trunk pan out between the frame rails.
Charlie sold this car to Ralph Costello in late 70, early 71 so he could concentrate on his Pro Stock program. Ralph painted the yellow sections on the sides to the same color red that was on the rest of the car. Replaced Charlie's Castaldo's name with Costello. Ralph raced the car in MP for a few years using alot of Castaldo's cast off/ outdated parts. Ralph eventually sold the car to a street racer, Danny Giaquinto in the Philly area. It was then sold to Ralph Conte.
Tom Lee eventually purchased it & still owns it today. He has confirmed seeing Castaldo's colors & flared wheel wells when he rebuilt the body on it. The quarters were so rough he had to replace them, but decided to leave the "as production" small wheel openings on it. He has also confirmed other mods such as the trans. tunnel, trunk, wheelie bar mounting, fiberglass bolts etc.
This is Charlie Castaldo's auto car, no if's, ands, or maybe's or buts.

The only Dart doors that would of kept Castaldo's name on them would have been from his crashed stick car & they were not repairable, even by todays standards. The other set of doors that had Charlie's name on them from the auto were candy apple yellow & red when Castaldo sold it to Costello.

I have pictures of all the above to verify my statements. I have spoke to the crew who worked on Castaldo's cars on a daily basis back then. I have spoke with the current owner of Castaldo's auto & have personally looked at it.
I have done my homework on Charlie's cars. Castaldo only had 2 Hemi Darts. There were no clones, there were no look alikes.

I honestly don't understand, or know how it would have been possible for jimi to have seen red & silver doors on my car that read Charlie Castaldo. He says he's correct.--- I just don't know how it's possible. I want to believe Jimi. Please explain.

liteweight

[jimi]

lightweight have you ever seen proof that the brooks lee car is the castaldo car ? proof of restoration , pictures etc.?

[Liteweight]

Originally Posted by jimi

lightweight have you ever seen proof that the brooks lee car is the castaldo car ? proof of restoration , pictures etc.?

jimi
I have the same pictures & documentation from Mark Janaky & others that I have provided you with. Mark is very thorough in CORRECT documentation. If there's a question bout something, he'll tell you. If he doesn't know something, he'll tell you. Mark DOES NOT deal with hear say or fiction. If it ain't so he'll tell you
Brook Lee's car IS Castaldo's auto car.
Castaldo's 4 spd was crashed, stripped of usable parts & crushed. There are NO if's, ands, or maybes about any of Castaldo's Darts. There were only 2 & mine IS NOT one of them.
With the pictures I have, & speaking with many people, including Charlie Licatta (who wrenched on Castaldo's cars & has a VERY sharp memory) there is ZERO, 0% chance of my car being ANY of the 2 Castaldo cars.
Jimi we've gone through this many times.

liteweight

[jimi]

calm down i was asking a question because i am interested to know about the other car if it is documented with proof. i am not starting this argument again with you you have your feelings about it and so do i,the difference is i was there, it was in my barn at my shop i used to druel over that car, it was parked right behind my 62 dodge dart wagon in the same barn where i used to work on my car all the time,you need to chill the f out and deal with the fact that some where in all of this i just maybe just be CORRECT!!!!!! i do know that my father had a car that said charlie castaldo on the doors. i think that we have proven the fact that your car was at my shop in the 80's that there are similarities in things that i remember about it but i still want to know what car it was that my father owned that had castaldos name on the doors! maybe parts from the crashed car wound up on another car i dont know and i dont think at this point we ever will, did you ever get the chance to speak with ken wright? about al massarino? he is convinced he knows your car, its where abouts that my dad got it from and alot of other things. like availability of pictures and such. i sent you his ph number months ago.

i know it is hard to tell with theses cars but what is the approximate build # of your dart? 1, 25 , 50? i was told that charlies first car was # 50