Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy

Run that deal as a 72. the 315 hp 455 is a good deal. I ran 10.80's in G with that combo in 09. The heads are a dime a dozen, very easy to find. I know somebody who has a set of .060 Ross pistons, and an older set of prepped stocker heads that you could most likely make a deal for to get you started. You could race that deal with stock lifters, and normal spring pressure as well. Also no EGR valve in the intake.

The best way to attach the headers to the ends of the port is to drill and tap them. Then use a simple stud.

screw in studs is a simple process that anybody can do, don't let that scare you away.

Turning that car into a 77 is alot of time an effort, plus some money. Im not sure that 5c deal is the way to go either. No compression at all. the 72 455 will pour to 9.2 compression. that other deal will be lucky if it makes 8.0

the 71 455 has a very small intake runner. 144cc and at 325 is a dead player

Originally Posted by oldskool

I just checked out the differences real close. Would need an entire front cap. Hood, fenders, and nose--all different. It appears the '77 Grand Safari shares the front cap with the Bonneville and maybe the Parisienne.

[Adam Strang]

The 350 is also rated at 305 in the GTO.

[oldskool]

Originally Posted by Adam Strang

The 350 is also rated at 305 in the GTO.

Well, I reckin that, once again, I am lookin at some old, outdated info. This classracerinfo site clearly says that the 330hp 350 has a 325hp factor, and comes only in the Tempest and Lemans, not the GTO.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...px?ENGINE=2028

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...px?ENGINE=2028

So, would you please, once again, post me a link to the info you are referring to. And thanks for correcting any mistakes I might make. I am just trying to go by what I read. Maybe I'm reading in the wrong place ?

[Mark Yacavone]

Originally Posted by oldskool

Well, I reckin that, once again, I am lookin at some old, outdated info. This classracerinfo site clearly says that the 330hp 350 has a 325hp factor, and comes only in the Tempest and Lemans, not the GTO.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...px?ENGINE=2028

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...px?ENGINE=2028

So, would you please, once again, post me a link to the info you are referring to. And thanks for correcting any mistakes I might make. I am just trying to go by what I read. Maybe I'm reading in the wrong place ?

Adam is working with a 68 Firebird.
305 in Tempest, Lemans ,,I believe you are right...Not in GTO's

[oldskool]

Originally Posted by Mark Yacavone

Adam is working with a 68 Firebird.
305 in Tempest, Lemans ,,I believe you are right...Not in GTO's

OK, that's different. The reason I didn't include the '68's, but only the '69-'72, is because I don't like the bumper and taillight arrangement on the '68's. It's just a personal preference thing.

I wonder if the hp difference in the '68 & '69 has anything to do with the size of the valves, in the #48 heads ? Or did somebody just request that the '68 factor be lower ?

[oldskool]

Originally Posted by Todd Hoven

Run that deal as a 72. the 315 hp 455 is a good deal. I ran 10.80's in G with that combo in 09. The heads are a dime a dozen, very easy to find.

OK, Thanks Todd ! That's what I need--info from somebody with 1st hand experience with a particular engine.

Now, all the clean GTO bodies I've seen in the last few years are overpriced and out of my price range. So, I looked down the list of cars that can run this engine. I like the Lemans wagons at 13.0 weight break. One reason is because I noticed the ET for 13.0 is 2 tenths slower than for 12.50 break. So, even with a heavy car, a 12.65 should be doable, without any major financing.

The wagon will have to weigh: 13.0 x 315hp = 4095lb. Now when I think of the '72 Lemans wagon, I automatically think of the "Tons a Fun" and Jim Hand's wagon with the GTO front on 'em. But I figure they are rare and high dollar by now also. So one with just the plain Lemans front would do.

The next car on my list would be the GP. They should be much cheaper than a Goat or a wagon IF you can find one that is decent, that hasn't been crushed. You could run the GP in the 12.50 weight break. It would have to weigh 12.5 x 315 = 3937.5lbs That's 157.5lbs lighter than the Wagon. The rule of thumb is that 100lbs = 1 tenth of a sec ET. So the same engine should run about .15 quicker in the GP. But the index for the GP will be 12.45. That's 2 full tenths quicker than the wagon's index. So, on paper, you'd come out .05 better with the wagon.

Hey, I don't mean to bore ya'll with these figures. But when you are trying to run the index on a VERY low budget, every hundredth counts.

Now, I'd really rather drive a 2-door Lemans. So I'm thinkin that a Lemans will be easier to find than a wagon or a GP. And if it's got a decent body, but a ragged out inside and a shot or missing engine, I may be able to find one cheap and start from scratch.

Hey, I know it'd be easier to buy something ready to race or at least a good roller, less engine & trans. And I'd be glad to do that. But remember, this is a LOW budget deal. But I reckin it will really be more rewarding to build something from scratch, than to just be able to plunk down the $$ and go racing. But, hey, I'd like to try that just once to see if it was fun or not.

A Lemans or Grand Prix is the way to go with the 7M5 455. No need to run a GTO. A wagon would be fine, just need a bit of gear for it. Maybe a shorter cam duration wise

Originally Posted by oldskool

OK, Thanks Todd ! That's what I need--info from somebody with 1st hand experience with a particular engine.

Now, all the clean GTO bodies I've seen in the last few years are overpriced and out of my price range. So, I looked down the list of cars that can run this engine. I like the Lemans wagons at 13.0 weight break. One reason is because I noticed the ET for 13.0 is 2 tenths slower than for 12.50 break. So, even with a heavy car, a 12.65 should be doable, without any major financing.

The wagon will have to weigh: 13.0 x 315hp = 4095lb. Now when I think of the '72 Lemans wagon, I automatically think of the "Tons a Fun" and Jim Hand's wagon with the GTO front on 'em. But I figure they are rare and high dollar by now also. So one with just the plain Lemans front would do.

The next car on my list would be the GP. They should be much cheaper than a Goat or a wagon IF you can find one that is decent, that hasn't been crushed. You could run the GP in the 12.50 weight break. It would have to weigh 12.5 x 315 = 3937.5lbs That's 157.5lbs lighter than the Wagon. The rule of thumb is that 100lbs = 1 tenth of a sec ET. So the same engine should run about .15 quicker in the GP. But the index for the GP will be 12.45. That's 2 full tenths quicker than the wagon's index. So, on paper, you'd come out .05 better with the wagon.

Hey, I don't mean to bore ya'll with these figures. But when you are trying to run the index on a VERY low budget, every hundredth counts.

Now, I'd really rather drive a 2-door Lemans. So I'm thinkin that a Lemans will be easier to find than a wagon or a GP. And if it's got a decent body, but a ragged out inside and a shot or missing engine, I may be able to find one cheap and start from scratch.

Hey, I know it'd be easier to buy something ready to race or at least a good roller, less engine & trans. And I'd be glad to do that. But remember, this is a LOW budget deal. But I reckin it will really be more rewarding to build something from scratch, than to just be able to plunk down the $$ and go racing. But, hey, I'd like to try that just once to see if it was fun or not.

[oldskool]

Originally Posted by Todd Hoven

A Lemans or Grand Prix is the way to go with the 7M5 455. No need to run a GTO. A wagon would be fine, just need a bit of gear for it. Maybe a shorter cam duration wise

Yeah, I'd like a 2-door Lemans. But since they are lighter, they'll have to go a little quicker. The base models will run F or G. Higher models will run G or H. I like the idea of adding some weight to the rear. So, of these, I'd like to run the H/SA combo. That index is 12.15. So you'd need to run a 12.00 flat in hot weather. That sounds doable, without a high dollar engine.

The weight would be 11.5 x 315 = 3622.5 lbs.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...px?ENGINE=2068

http://www.classracerinfo.com/NHRA_Classes.aspx

Another engine that I think might work is the '70 360hp 455 with #64 heads. According to the classracerinfo site, it was just refactored to 345hp. I reckin it is the highest compression 455 you could run. You can shave the heads down to 75cc, and wind up with 12.44 CR., according to the info sheet.

We ran one of these motors out of a street GTO, in 3 different bracket cars, way back yonder. It ran 12.40's and 50's with a TH400, a stock 13" converter and 3.55 gears. We ran it for 3 seasons. It won lots of races and probably logged between 600 & 800 passes total.(we went to 49 races in '78) And I think it had well over 50,000 street miles when I got it. It was my 1st 455. It made a believer out of me.

And it taught me a lot. It broke every part of the drive train, at one time or another--a Glide, a TH350 out of an 11 sec nova, several TH400 int sprags, a Buick 10 bolt, an 8.5 ten bolt(I tried to get by one race before tacking the axle tubes to the center section), and of course a couple of driveshafts. That thang was a torque monster. I had only raced 400's prior to that. I had no idea about the torque of a 455 and what it could break.

This engine should haul a '70 A-body Pontiac Stocker down the track pretty quick.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...px?ENGINE=2050

[oldskool]

OK, if I decide to try a '72 Lemans combo. I need to know what to look for. So, right off I know that the '71 & '72 Lemans look very similar. I'll look up some pics online to see if I can spot the differences. If they are close enuff to the same, that will increase the chances that I might find a decent junker to build.

OK, I been lookin at 'em online. The only difference I've spotted is the grills. The '71 has only 1 bright strip horizontally across the middle of both grill pieces. The '72 has 2 different style grills. One style has 2 bright strips horizontally across both grills. The other type appears to have a 2-piece grill on each side. It looks like two pieces sitting on top of each other. The pics can explain it better than me.

If any of you guys know anything else that would need to be changed on a '71, to pass NHRA tech as a '72, please post that info. Thanks.

[oldskool]

Because of the high price of GTO's, I figure there are quite a few of these cars doing bracket duty. But, most of these cars are out past my meager finances at this time. And some of 'em are probably cut up too much on the inside. And there is a wide variety of hoods and scoops on 'em.

At last check, a '71 held the E/SA national record.