stocker valve jobs

CamCam · 11-15-2008, 05:59 AM

i'm curious i recently bought some aluminun cylinder heads for the 396/375 combo and was wondering about the valve job. my question is i have a friend who is an old school machinist who basically does all valve jobs by hand,would any of guys let him perform this job for you. he use to do stock and superstock stuff in the late 70's and 80's there is a superstock mustang out there right now that he use to build engines for and the guy who does the machining for the ford now was taught by this guy. can you get a good stocker valve job by hand or is it better with serdi because it's easier.

njk53 · 11-15-2008, 12:43 PM

It sound's like this guy has been around long enough to have the machining skills needed to do the work. Question is how successful has he been with the work he has done?

Some of the old school guys know a lot of little tricks that can give you an edge.
JM2C.

Dave Goob Cook · 11-15-2008, 12:59 PM

A good valve job doesn't know if it was a stone or cutter that did the work.
The Serdi tooling is really nice and quick for multi angles, with good repeat, but bottom line, it just doesn't matter.

Adger Smith · 11-15-2008, 02:40 PM

Old school means he has experience. Yes, he taught someone that has produced success, but how much has this student modernized since being taught?
I'm old school(40 years of doing this), but it takes modern equipment & using new techniques to get high flow. Without flow bench testing how do you know what you are doing? (Besides just a valve job) Recently there have been changes in what is allowed in Stocker valve jobs. Getting the most from these rule changes is not something old school. As far as Dave Cooks comment about a vavle job not knowing the difference in a stone or cutter.. that is not exactly the case. For an avg Joe street car or bracket race cyl head, maybe. For a tricked out stocker/super stocker, no. First, it is real hard to consistantly cut any radius with a stone, like the tooling of the Sunnen VGS & Serdi. Second, when a stone cuts(no matter how sharpe it is) it leaves a minute rounded edge. Cutters leave a sharp edge. It has been proven that on most high flow valve jobs the sharp edges of the seats promote flow. This has been discussed on the Speed Talk forum by Darin Morgan & others (myself included) if you want to do a search.
There are some parts of building a Stocker that are old school, tried & true that don't change. The heads, cams & valve jobs are areas that constantly see changes & improvements. Why would I spend 10 to 15 hours a week on my flow bench trying to improve heads that I'm just freshening?(without porting) Yes, I'm hunting power-flow. You ask this: "can you get a good stocker valve job by hand or is it better with serdi because it's easier." As far as Quicker or easier with Serdi/VGS tooling, that is not the only reason they are used. I still have all my hard seat grinding equipment & use it from time to time. The reason it is not used is the Serdi/VGS is way better. All heads are different & respond to different angles/radius cuts. A high flow valve job on one brand/type head will not produce the same results on another brand/ type head. My advice is if you want to have a combo that qualifies well & stands a chance in a heads up run, go to someone that is using modern tools & techniques. Someone that their work has a proven track record on your combination.

Bob Pagano · 11-15-2008, 03:06 PM

Let me tell you all, I spent 5 years with Adger in his shop and have seen first hand the work done on Stocker and SS heads and he spends hours between getting angles right and flow number up just by a valve job. 3 to 4 days sometimes just to get them to match, stocker heads take time you can not just do a valve job like back in the 60s and 70s. It costs because it takes time.

mr305 · 11-15-2008, 10:34 PM

I too agree with Adger Serdi vs. Stone Serdi is usually always gonna win that battle.
Aaron Disinger

CamCam · 11-16-2008, 11:43 AM

hey thanks for the response. i'm not trying to knock anyones skill level,i was just curious on the difference between the two tools.and i'll be frank there is a superstock car in the area that he did the valve job on and picked the car up nearly a tenth and a half faster from it's best lap. and i've talked to him about diffrent combo's and he talked about how he did different things with angle's for different makes and how certain things you could do with the old .250 rule. i 've watched him do a set of heads that took him nearly two weeks just for the valve job itself. even tho he's old school and he don't do alot of engine's because his business is other after market stuff he keeps up with the changes of today,just do valve jobs by hand. his biggest thing for the stocker stuff is rpm's. he talk about reversion a lot with the stocker stuff and other things that you can do with the heads and intake.he also was explaning to me about lifter bore align ment how you use certain type of lifters in certain bores and make power oil pan work ring packadges special type of honing he also talked about rods and piston combos how u can move the off center bore for better angle less drag .i'm not an engine bulider but i can build an engine per say, by that i mean i'm trying to learn more about the fine art of race engine building,and by the way i would love to learn from mr adgar smith i've seen the name for a lot of yrs would be an honor to meet you.mr smith if you were to do my heads what would the price be for a complete set, and to do the block also , i have the pistons rods crank bullett cam no bearings main or rod .what would the damage be.

11-15-2008, 05:59 AM	#1
CamCam Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 51 Likes: 0 Liked 1 Time in 1 Post	stocker valve jobs i'm curious i recently bought some aluminun cylinder heads for the 396/375 combo and was wondering about the valve job. my question is i have a friend who is an old school machinist who basically does all valve jobs by hand,would any of guys let him perform this job for you. he use to do stock and superstock stuff in the late 70's and 80's there is a superstock mustang out there right now that he use to build engines for and the guy who does the machining for the ford now was taught by this guy. can you get a good stocker valve job by hand or is it better with serdi because it's easier.

11-15-2008, 12:43 PM	#2
njk53 Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: East China, MI Posts: 504 Likes: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: stocker valve jobs It sound's like this guy has been around long enough to have the machining skills needed to do the work. Question is how successful has he been with the work he has done? Some of the old school guys know a lot of little tricks that can give you an edge. JM2C. __________________ Nelson Kowal Stock 345

11-15-2008, 12:59 PM	#3
Dave Goob Cook Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Indy Posts: 422 Likes: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: stocker valve jobs A good valve job doesn't know if it was a stone or cutter that did the work. The Serdi tooling is really nice and quick for multi angles, with good repeat, but bottom line, it just doesn't matter. __________________ "Despite the high cost of living, it remains popular." Dave Cook NHRA N375

11-15-2008, 02:40 PM	#4
Adger Smith VIP Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Texarkana Ark/TX Posts: 2,362 Likes: 449 Liked 690 Times in 268 Posts	Re: stocker valve jobs Old school means he has experience. Yes, he taught someone that has produced success, but how much has this student modernized since being taught? I'm old school(40 years of doing this), but it takes modern equipment & using new techniques to get high flow. Without flow bench testing how do you know what you are doing? (Besides just a valve job) Recently there have been changes in what is allowed in Stocker valve jobs. Getting the most from these rule changes is not something old school. As far as Dave Cooks comment about a vavle job not knowing the difference in a stone or cutter.. that is not exactly the case. For an avg Joe street car or bracket race cyl head, maybe. For a tricked out stocker/super stocker, no. First, it is real hard to consistantly cut any radius with a stone, like the tooling of the Sunnen VGS & Serdi. Second, when a stone cuts(no matter how sharpe it is) it leaves a minute rounded edge. Cutters leave a sharp edge. It has been proven that on most high flow valve jobs the sharp edges of the seats promote flow. This has been discussed on the Speed Talk forum by Darin Morgan & others (myself included) if you want to do a search. There are some parts of building a Stocker that are old school, tried & true that don't change. The heads, cams & valve jobs are areas that constantly see changes & improvements. Why would I spend 10 to 15 hours a week on my flow bench trying to improve heads that I'm just freshening?(without porting) Yes, I'm hunting power-flow. You ask this: "can you get a good stocker valve job by hand or is it better with serdi because it's easier." As far as Quicker or easier with Serdi/VGS tooling, that is not the only reason they are used. I still have all my hard seat grinding equipment & use it from time to time. The reason it is not used is the Serdi/VGS is way better. All heads are different & respond to different angles/radius cuts. A high flow valve job on one brand/type head will not produce the same results on another brand/ type head. My advice is if you want to have a combo that qualifies well & stands a chance in a heads up run, go to someone that is using modern tools & techniques. Someone that their work has a proven track record on your combination. __________________ Adger Smith (Former SS)

11-15-2008, 03:06 PM	#5
Bob Pagano VIP Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: New Holland, PA Mooresville,NC Posts: 1,163 Likes: 212 Liked 16 Times in 11 Posts	Re: stocker valve jobs Let me tell you all, I spent 5 years with Adger in his shop and have seen first hand the work done on Stocker and SS heads and he spends hours between getting angles right and flow number up just by a valve job. 3 to 4 days sometimes just to get them to match, stocker heads take time you can not just do a valve job like back in the 60s and 70s. It costs because it takes time. __________________ Bob Pagano A/SA

11-15-2008, 10:34 PM	#6
mr305 Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Monticello Posts: 159 Likes: 0 Liked 2 Times in 1 Post	Re: stocker valve jobs I too agree with Adger Serdi vs. Stone Serdi is usually always gonna win that battle. Aaron Disinger

11-16-2008, 11:43 AM	#7
CamCam Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 51 Likes: 0 Liked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: stocker valve jobs hey thanks for the response. i'm not trying to knock anyones skill level,i was just curious on the difference between the two tools.and i'll be frank there is a superstock car in the area that he did the valve job on and picked the car up nearly a tenth and a half faster from it's best lap. and i've talked to him about diffrent combo's and he talked about how he did different things with angle's for different makes and how certain things you could do with the old .250 rule. i 've watched him do a set of heads that took him nearly two weeks just for the valve job itself. even tho he's old school and he don't do alot of engine's because his business is other after market stuff he keeps up with the changes of today,just do valve jobs by hand. his biggest thing for the stocker stuff is rpm's. he talk about reversion a lot with the stocker stuff and other things that you can do with the heads and intake.he also was explaning to me about lifter bore align ment how you use certain type of lifters in certain bores and make power oil pan work ring packadges special type of honing he also talked about rods and piston combos how u can move the off center bore for better angle less drag .i'm not an engine bulider but i can build an engine per say, by that i mean i'm trying to learn more about the fine art of race engine building,and by the way i would love to learn from mr adgar smith i've seen the name for a lot of yrs would be an honor to meet you.mr smith if you were to do my heads what would the price be for a complete set, and to do the block also , i have the pistons rods crank bullett cam no bearings main or rod .what would the damage be.