'66 Dodge D-Dart at Mecum auction - Page 15

treessavoy · 12-13-2009, 08:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Precht

Hi Jim, how fast was the 225 Valliant, Paul.

Paul,

Bone stock with some tuning, on street tires it ran high 16's but every launch was scary, never new when the rear end would give up.

With a 4 bbl manifold, small Carter, cam and homemade headers we got it down into the mid 15's with Atlas bucrons. Oiling was a big problem, if it got starved or oil was low you would lose no. 6 cyl but the starter usually kept the piston from going thru the hood....lol!

JimR

Paul Ceasrine · 12-16-2009, 06:15 AM

Bill and Alan,
Not sure if you saw the 1966 "Mods For Mopar 273" article by
Eric Dahlquist. With Tom Hoover and Mike Buckle of Chrysler. Article posted February 1966. All detailed info on valve spacing and sizing for the 273, as well as Part #'s. It was the early stages of develpoment for the D-Dart 275 HP.
As crazy as it sounds, they knew that the 9 1/4" Auburn clutch on the
273's were poor, and they were recommending a 9 1/4" clutch from a 1953 Dodge V-8 (Borg & Beck #1220). Hard to imagine in 1966 they were recommending a 13 year old part #, as a performance upgrade.
Paul

bill dedman · 12-16-2009, 08:54 PM

Paul, I think I do remember reading that article, now that you mention it.

Hard to imagine that Chrysler engineering would put such a poor match for that engine's potential in a vehicle designed for clutch abuse. That is way out of character for that group.

It wasn't the only one, though. Can you imagine how different the street scene would have been through the '60s if Ma Mopar had had the imagination and determination to build
1. A 440, 6-Pack A Body car such as a bare bones 1969 Valiant 2-door sedan, or '70 Duster with that same motor, or

2. an assembly-line available, 340 or 360 motor with heads that had W-2 flow capabilities, solid lifter cams with .550"+ and 260-degree duration at .050"-lift, and a lighter reciprocating assembly?

3. Small blocks with correct lifter-angle lifter bores and 5 head bolts?

It's amazing they ever outran anybody with the truck/tractor parts they put in those reciprocating assemblies (SO heavy!!!) And, the "X" heads had great intake ports, but, the world's worst exhaust ports....

If they'd not been so intent on Hemi technology, at the expense of everything else, it could have been a whole different ballgame out there on the street in '62 thru '71...

All the parts were already right there (with the exception of the cams and the lifter-bore geometry.)

It was almost like they didn't really WANT to win...

Chevrolet had nothing LIKE a 440, 6-pack '69 Valiant.... the 396 Chevy Novas would have been dead meat; they were 200 pounds heaver and had 44 less cubic inches.

Can you imagine a Stage III, Max-wedge/727-equipped '64 Valiant on the street??? In 1964??? LOL!

Somebody ay MoPar was asleep at the wheel... or, didn't care.

Too bad.... It could have been so very different, if they'd concentrated on A-Bodies instead of B-Bodies for the street. Weight = Horsepower....

Paul Ceasrine · 12-17-2009, 05:21 AM

Bill,
You hit the nail right on the head, with that list.
Ouch!! 5-head bolts per cylinder would have been the problem solver.
We tried every damn head gasket out there, and nothing ever seemed to work for any duration.
A Max-Wedge in a 64' Valiant. Now that would have been one missle that no one could touch. One problem though, I think the only way you could stop it would be to drive into the front-end of a D-9 Cat Bull-Dozer!
I think Chrysler missed the boat on not developing a big-block for the
1970 Dusters and later Demons. Maybe with aluminum heads (Max-Wedge Stage III design) and aluminum intake to lighten the front-end load (ie; L-89 big-block aluminum Chevy heads).
As for 273 head mods. The article states that 1.94" (Chrysler 354 Hemi)
intakes can be utilized, as long as the stem was shortened by .060.
Paul

ddartdude · 12-17-2009, 07:03 PM

Paul,
I thought that I measured the intake valves on the "Mecum" auction cars engine when I had the heads off it. I thought they were 1.87's. I could be wrong. Wouldn't be the first time. This is one of the slugs in it. No relief for the valves.
Alan

ddartdude · 12-17-2009, 07:36 PM

Paul,
I was looking through my magazine stash and dug these out. Believe it or not, there were a lot of magazine articles written on the little 273. All these have article on building the 273 engine.

Chrysler Race Bulletin Number 8
273/318/340 CI ----- (340 CI hand written on the coversheet)
Engine Tune-Up Tips
Includes D/Dart engine parts and build up

Hot Rod -- February 1966
Power Mods For MoPar's 273
Has pictures of Koffel's C/FX engine

Car Craft --- March 1966
Fine Pair of Fish
-- Ralph Costa's "The Politician" and The Golden Commando's "Goldfish"
-- No build up, just a comparison of the two cars

Hot Rod Parts Illustrated --- May 1966
Dodge Hemi & 273 Performance Bulletins

Super/Stock and FX Magazine --- June 1966
More dig for the 273 Dart
-- D/MP Dart w/Offy dual quad intake - Carter carbs -- 300 HP

Rodder and Super/Stock --- September 1965
Same article as in SS&FX Magazine --- June 1966

Speed and Custom --- August 1966
Blueprint for Performance -- 273 Drag Secrets Revealed

SuperStock & Drag Illustrated --- May 1967
Spehar's 273 Incher
-- 1966 D/Dart --- "The Politician" --- D/S

Car Craft --- July 1968
Ted Spehar on Mopars
-- 1965 Barracuda --- "The Politician" --- F/SA

Car Life --- July 1970
Mopar Magic

Enjoy
Alan

bill dedman · 12-18-2009, 02:15 AM

Paul,
Thanks for the extra insight RE: the street racing '60s and '70s as it went with the myopic Chrysler engineers.

I have probably made a huge mistake by installing a Vortech supercharger (10 pounds of boost) on an otherwise stock 360 Magnum (it does have a better-than-stock Hughes cam and TTI headers.) It's a 4-headbolt street/strip (Bracket) car.

I have lots and lots of anti-detonation Band Aids on it, but if I'd done a 383/400, instead of that 360, I might could get some sleep at night, instead of staying awake all night, trying to come up with new and innovative ways to prevent detonation.

How much money would it have cost to engineer that original Polysphere 277 ('56 Plymouth) with 5 headbolts instead of 4????

I hate bean counters...

Paul Ceasrine · 12-18-2009, 05:29 AM

Alan,
The photo of that piston sure brings back memories. Also, looks like that block has a nice tight seal around the combustion area. No indication of
any leakage (blow-by on the gasket seal). Must be a true block!!
If I remember correctly, you didn't have to notch the pistons (with a ,500 lift cam) providing you didn't mill the heads. Of course thats with the stock valve units.
As for 273 articles. The February 66' Hot Rod article by Eric Dahlquist is probably the best one, on the technical side. Great posting there on
all 273 related publications. Thanks*
Lifter (tappet) question. Are those solid lifters in the block (hour-glass shaped) or fully solid?
Bill,,,A Super-Charger. Where are you going and how fast do you want to get their? A small-block is still the way to go in the A-Bodies for the street. Do you want to know how long it took me to change the spark-plugs on my 69' M-Code 440 Cuda (with stock exhaust manifolds)?
When I started, my daughter was in 4th grade, and now that I just finished the #7 cylinder, she's enrolling in college

Paul

ddartdude · 12-18-2009, 09:16 AM

Paul,
They had the hour glass lifters in it. The original owner said he broke a couple of them while racing and replaced them with the solid ones, so there were 13 hour glass and 3 with solid bodies in it.
The cylinders had no ridges in them at all when I opened it up. For an engine with over 100,000 miles on it, it looked fantastic. He drove it 75,000 miles with the 4.86 gears in it. That helped a lot.
Alan

bill dedman · 12-19-2009, 12:53 AM

Paul asked: "Where are you going, and how fast do you want to get there?"

Answer: to the finish line, and, ASAP.

I have had a couple of races in my time, and the A-engine/A-Body cars I've owned have always acquitted themselves amirably in the smallish venues I've tried my hand in.... particularly, with regard to racing against big blocks.
Still, I know I'd probably be better of with a 383/400 with a turbo than this 360/centrifugal blower.

Day after tomorrow, I'll be 71....

This 360 probably will provide all the fun I should have, at my age... LOL!

12-16-2009, 06:15 AM	#142
Paul Ceasrine VIP Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 2,546 Likes: 0 Liked 10 Times in 10 Posts	Re: '66 Dodge D-Dart at Mecum auction Bill and Alan, Not sure if you saw the 1966 "Mods For Mopar 273" article by Eric Dahlquist. With Tom Hoover and Mike Buckle of Chrysler. Article posted February 1966. All detailed info on valve spacing and sizing for the 273, as well as Part #'s. It was the early stages of develpoment for the D-Dart 275 HP. As crazy as it sounds, they knew that the 9 1/4" Auburn clutch on the 273's were poor, and they were recommending a 9 1/4" clutch from a 1953 Dodge V-8 (Borg & Beck #1220). Hard to imagine in 1966 they were recommending a 13 year old part #, as a performance upgrade. Paul

12-16-2009, 08:54 PM	#143
bill dedman VIP Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Conway, AR Posts: 1,739 Likes: 0 Liked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Re: '66 Dodge D-Dart at Mecum auction Paul, I think I do remember reading that article, now that you mention it. Hard to imagine that Chrysler engineering would put such a poor match for that engine's potential in a vehicle designed for clutch abuse. That is way out of character for that group. It wasn't the only one, though. Can you imagine how different the street scene would have been through the '60s if Ma Mopar had had the imagination and determination to build 1. A 440, 6-Pack A Body car such as a bare bones 1969 Valiant 2-door sedan, or '70 Duster with that same motor, or 2. an assembly-line available, 340 or 360 motor with heads that had W-2 flow capabilities, solid lifter cams with .550"+ and 260-degree duration at .050"-lift, and a lighter reciprocating assembly? 3. Small blocks with correct lifter-angle lifter bores and 5 head bolts? It's amazing they ever outran anybody with the truck/tractor parts they put in those reciprocating assemblies (SO heavy!!!) And, the "X" heads had great intake ports, but, the world's worst exhaust ports.... If they'd not been so intent on Hemi technology, at the expense of everything else, it could have been a whole different ballgame out there on the street in '62 thru '71... All the parts were already right there (with the exception of the cams and the lifter-bore geometry.) It was almost like they didn't really WANT to win... Chevrolet had nothing LIKE a 440, 6-pack '69 Valiant.... the 396 Chevy Novas would have been dead meat; they were 200 pounds heaver and had 44 less cubic inches. Can you imagine a Stage III, Max-wedge/727-equipped '64 Valiant on the street??? In 1964??? LOL! Somebody ay MoPar was asleep at the wheel... or, didn't care. Too bad.... It could have been so very different, if they'd concentrated on A-Bodies instead of B-Bodies for the street. Weight = Horsepower.... __________________ Bill Last edited by bill dedman; 12-16-2009 at 10:10 PM.

12-17-2009, 05:21 AM	#144
Paul Ceasrine VIP Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 2,546 Likes: 0 Liked 10 Times in 10 Posts	Re: '66 Dodge D-Dart at Mecum auction Bill, You hit the nail right on the head, with that list. Ouch!! 5-head bolts per cylinder would have been the problem solver. We tried every damn head gasket out there, and nothing ever seemed to work for any duration. A Max-Wedge in a 64' Valiant. Now that would have been one missle that no one could touch. One problem though, I think the only way you could stop it would be to drive into the front-end of a D-9 Cat Bull-Dozer! I think Chrysler missed the boat on not developing a big-block for the 1970 Dusters and later Demons. Maybe with aluminum heads (Max-Wedge Stage III design) and aluminum intake to lighten the front-end load (ie; L-89 big-block aluminum Chevy heads). As for 273 head mods. The article states that 1.94" (Chrysler 354 Hemi) intakes can be utilized, as long as the stem was shortened by .060. Paul

12-17-2009, 07:03 PM	#145
ddartdude Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Port St. Lucie, Florida Posts: 57 Likes: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: '66 Dodge D-Dart at Mecum auction Paul, I thought that I measured the intake valves on the "Mecum" auction cars engine when I had the heads off it. I thought they were 1.87's. I could be wrong. Wouldn't be the first time. This is one of the slugs in it. No relief for the valves. Alan Attached Thumbnails

12-17-2009, 07:36 PM	#146
ddartdude Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Port St. Lucie, Florida Posts: 57 Likes: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: '66 Dodge D-Dart at Mecum auction Paul, I was looking through my magazine stash and dug these out. Believe it or not, there were a lot of magazine articles written on the little 273. All these have article on building the 273 engine. Chrysler Race Bulletin Number 8 273/318/340 CI ----- (340 CI hand written on the coversheet) Engine Tune-Up Tips Includes D/Dart engine parts and build up Hot Rod -- February 1966 Power Mods For MoPar's 273 Has pictures of Koffel's C/FX engine Car Craft --- March 1966 Fine Pair of Fish -- Ralph Costa's "The Politician" and The Golden Commando's "Goldfish" -- No build up, just a comparison of the two cars Hot Rod Parts Illustrated --- May 1966 Dodge Hemi & 273 Performance Bulletins Super/Stock and FX Magazine --- June 1966 More dig for the 273 Dart -- D/MP Dart w/Offy dual quad intake - Carter carbs -- 300 HP Rodder and Super/Stock --- September 1965 Same article as in SS&FX Magazine --- June 1966 Speed and Custom --- August 1966 Blueprint for Performance -- 273 Drag Secrets Revealed SuperStock & Drag Illustrated --- May 1967 Spehar's 273 Incher -- 1966 D/Dart --- "The Politician" --- D/S Car Craft --- July 1968 Ted Spehar on Mopars -- 1965 Barracuda --- "The Politician" --- F/SA Car Life --- July 1970 Mopar Magic Enjoy Alan

12-18-2009, 02:15 AM	#147
bill dedman VIP Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Conway, AR Posts: 1,739 Likes: 0 Liked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Re: '66 Dodge D-Dart at Mecum auction Paul, Thanks for the extra insight RE: the street racing '60s and '70s as it went with the myopic Chrysler engineers. I have probably made a huge mistake by installing a Vortech supercharger (10 pounds of boost) on an otherwise stock 360 Magnum (it does have a better-than-stock Hughes cam and TTI headers.) It's a 4-headbolt street/strip (Bracket) car. I have lots and lots of anti-detonation Band Aids on it, but if I'd done a 383/400, instead of that 360, I might could get some sleep at night, instead of staying awake all night, trying to come up with new and innovative ways to prevent detonation. How much money would it have cost to engineer that original Polysphere 277 ('56 Plymouth) with 5 headbolts instead of 4???? I hate bean counters... __________________ Bill Last edited by bill dedman; 12-20-2009 at 12:32 AM.

12-18-2009, 05:29 AM	#148
Paul Ceasrine VIP Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 2,546 Likes: 0 Liked 10 Times in 10 Posts	Re: '66 Dodge D-Dart at Mecum auction Alan, The photo of that piston sure brings back memories. Also, looks like that block has a nice tight seal around the combustion area. No indication of any leakage (blow-by on the gasket seal). Must be a true block!! If I remember correctly, you didn't have to notch the pistons (with a ,500 lift cam) providing you didn't mill the heads. Of course thats with the stock valve units. As for 273 articles. The February 66' Hot Rod article by Eric Dahlquist is probably the best one, on the technical side. Great posting there on all 273 related publications. Thanks* Lifter (tappet) question. Are those solid lifters in the block (hour-glass shaped) or fully solid? Bill,,,A Super-Charger. Where are you going and how fast do you want to get their? A small-block is still the way to go in the A-Bodies for the street. Do you want to know how long it took me to change the spark-plugs on my 69' M-Code 440 Cuda (with stock exhaust manifolds)? When I started, my daughter was in 4th grade, and now that I just finished the #7 cylinder, she's enrolling in college Paul

12-18-2009, 09:16 AM	#149
ddartdude Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Port St. Lucie, Florida Posts: 57 Likes: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: '66 Dodge D-Dart at Mecum auction Paul, They had the hour glass lifters in it. The original owner said he broke a couple of them while racing and replaced them with the solid ones, so there were 13 hour glass and 3 with solid bodies in it. The cylinders had no ridges in them at all when I opened it up. For an engine with over 100,000 miles on it, it looked fantastic. He drove it 75,000 miles with the 4.86 gears in it. That helped a lot. Alan

12-19-2009, 12:53 AM	#150
bill dedman VIP Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Conway, AR Posts: 1,739 Likes: 0 Liked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Re: '66 Dodge D-Dart at Mecum auction Paul asked: "Where are you going, and how fast do you want to get there?" Answer: to the finish line, and, ASAP. I have had a couple of races in my time, and the A-engine/A-Body cars I've owned have always acquitted themselves amirably in the smallish venues I've tried my hand in.... particularly, with regard to racing against big blocks. Still, I know I'd probably be better of with a 383/400 with a turbo than this 360/centrifugal blower. Day after tomorrow, I'll be 71.... This 360 probably will provide all the fun I should have, at my age... LOL! __________________ Bill