worst red light debate, again!

[GarysZ24]

Originally Posted by JRyan

I wonder if Kevin Helms and Jerry Emmons would be for the "first or Worst rule" right about now. Roy Hill was the lucky recipient in both cases, and he should go to a driving school near home, or .....

Jerry

If they're not, then they should be...WOW , X2!!!

[GarysZ24]

Originally Posted by Bunkster

Where are a few “rogue” track operators that will change their starting system to a worst foul system?

If you’re out there, just do it: Don’t tell anyone what you did, just do it. Be different. Be a trend setter. Be a leader.

Then, let’s listen to the bizarre excuse when someone whines because they fouled worse than their opponent and lost: “I know my red light was worse, but HE did it first!”

That will be right up there on the silly meter with “I know I broke out worse, but HE did it first!”

Who’s going to quit handicap racing when everyone has an equal chance to foul start?

Not me...

[GarysZ24]

Originally Posted by Toby Lang

So, what's the criteria to be able to post on this issue? Looks to me like a lot of people posting on this haven't even raced S/SS in the last two plus years. If you crew on a S/SS car is that good enough? What if somebody knows someone who crews on a S/SS car is that good enough? What if somebody painted a S/SS car is that good enough?

If Bill has raced in S/SS before then I think he has just as much right to post on this issue as a lot of you do.


-Toby

x2

[Ed Fernandez]

Originally Posted by Alan Roehrich

WRONG. And it is YOU that does not get it. YOU do not RACE in Stock Eliminator, nor in Super Stock. YOU do not drive a car, YOU do not own a car, YOU do not crew a car, you do not build or work on cars, in either class. Therefore, and to wit, rules in Stock Eliminator and Super Stock DO NOT EFFECT YOU.

Yes Bill, it really is THAT SIMPLE. And yet, you insist on trying to ram a rule change down the throats of racers you do not race with.

Ever wonder why you annoy others so much? You have your nose in their business, trying to make changes that DO NOT EFFECT YOU, to classes they race in and you do not.

It has been suggested to you dozens, maybe hundreds of times, that you propose your rule change as a racer, in your classes, at your track. But you steadfastly refuse to do so, you insist on constantly demanding that racers in other classes embrace your desire for a rule change in classes you have no actual vested interest in. You admit you're not going to race in Stock Eliminator or Super Stock, and yet you demand and insist that the rule be changed to suit you.

I may bracket race some, as a diversion, as part of a test and tune session, or something of that nature. But the one thing I will refuse to do is to demand that bracket racers change a rule to suit me. I won't even go on their section of the boards and talk about their rules, as their rules are no business of mine. And even if I do choose to bracket race at times, I do so under their rules, with the understanding that it is their world, and I'm just visiting.

No, Bill, Ed gets it, you do not. Ed is not demanding a rule change at all, never mind demanding a rule change in a class he has zero intentions of racing in. Think about it. Spend as much time and effort obsessing over that concept as you do the red light rule. One day, even you might get it, you might grasp the concept. I won't hold my breath waiting.

Thank you Alan for explaining this so even a caveman can understand it.I think that all points racers in S/SS should have to forfeit 10 points per race because they are so much better than the rest of us and our self esteem is being damaged.Why shouldn't we be able to win races and make more money just because we aren't good enough to do it on our own talent.

[bill dedman]

Originally Posted by Alan Roehrich

I also drove in G/S. And I did redlight first, more than once. It was MY redlight, I did it, and I lost.

It's a rule that has been the way it is for decades, it hasn't hindered the growth of the sport. It's a minor annoyance, at the most. .

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++


You lost BECAUSE you had a chance to red light, and you did,

When did your opponent have HIS chance to red light??? Oh... he didn't.

Answer the question and you'll have the answer to what is unfair about this system.

The second car has the advantage of NO REDLIGHT JEOPARDY if the first car bulbs. Nobody can deny that, and as small an advantage as you seem to think it is, in the final analysis, it IS an advantage. Pretty much everyone seems to agree on that.

(It could easily happen in the final round for the Eliminator money, at Indy.)


Now, tell me the justification for that advantage. What is it about that unfair rule that appeals to you. I won't even suggest that it's because, as the sometimes pilot of a AA/SA car, it would benefit you a great majority of the time....

When the Christmas tree was in its infancy (1963-'64), there was no software to deal with a worse red light program, but thanks to progress in things digital, that is no longer true. It's fixable, now....

I'm sure that paying for the software to implement the change, wouldn't put much of a dent in NHRA's annual budget, which includes about a million dollars in salary for the top two honchos, but they'd probably choke on it, anway.

And, for that reason, alone, it will probably never happen.

On a couple of issues you raised, yes, I ran a class-legal Stocker, a 220 hp 283 Chevy 1957 sedan delivery for about 5 years (1966-1971), part of the time, with a partner (Div. V racer, Harry Sparks.) Harry still races in Stock Eliminator.

Here's a picture of the car in question. (see below.)

You seem upset that I don't CURRENTLY run a Stock-Super/Stock car.

In my defense, I would say this: This rule (the first red light rule) is universally enforced in both Class racing and in Bracket racing. My Bracket cars are subject to its B.S., just as if I were running Class-legal racing with them.

Ed doesn't seem to get that.

Does that give me the right to post on here (Class Racer) about my opinions regarding this antiquated anomaly????

The Moderator, Ken Miele, has created this BB for people who don't currently race. He has NEVER said, "Well, if you're not currently running a Class-Legal car, then your subject matter is limited to subjects that don't apply to those cars." For current racers, with a Permanent number, there's a separate BB.

So, there's only THIS to consider: The ethics of posting subject matter that is pertinent to what you DON'T race, and the ethics of doing so, as regards how it may have "unintended consequences."

This red light business is a fairness issue (obviously) and what is fair in Brackets as far as starting line protocol/rules is concerned, is fair for both Brackets and Class racing.

If you don't see it as an "ethics" issue, then you have no concept of fairness in racing, and it's not surprising that you are not disturbed by the lack of a level playing field that the "First red light" rule brings to the starting line.

IF it can be made more fair, with a reasonable amount of effort, I think there's no reason not to do it.

Who will be harmed by this change.? I can't think of a soul, except maybe the very top class car that will never leave first. Can you? Oh... I forgot; you're a sometimes AA/SA racer...

[Alan Roehrich]

It's so unfair it's killed drag racing, and people have been quitting over that one rule for decades. It's so important that the very life of drag racing depends on that, and that alone.



It wouldn't make a difference to me, no matter what I drive, although I do have some things in the works for an A/SA car.

I've raced under the same rules for about 3 decades, give or take, and it seems like a reasonable balance to me, even when I go red first, but the other guy is more red than I am.

If I go red, I go red, if I do it first, shame on me, even if the other guy was worse. I don't care, I blame every loss on the guy I look at in the mirror when I brush my teeth. If I lost, I didn't do everything better than the guy in the other lane, or at least I didn't do enough things better than he did.

[Ed Wright]

Your wasting your time Alan. This gets him attention he would not get otherwise.

[bill dedman]

Originally Posted by Alan Roehrich

It's so unfair it's killed drag racing, and people have been quitting over that one rule for decades. It's so important that the very life of drag racing depends on that, and that alone.



It wouldn't make a difference to me, no matter what I drive, although I do have some things in the works for an A/SA car.

I've raced under the same rules for about 3 decades, give or take, and it seems like a reasonable balance to me, even when I go red first, but the other guy is more red than I am.

If I go red, I go red, if I do it first, shame on me, even if the other guy was worse. I don't care, I blame every loss on the guy I look at in the mirror when I brush my teeth. If I lost, I didn't do everything better than the guy in the other lane, or at least I didn't do enough things better than he did.

"If I go red, I go red, if I do it first, shame on me, even if the other guy was worse."

If you were in a car with a slower handicap(dial-in), what choice did you have????

YOU HAD NO CHOICE. If you redlight, it will ALWAYS be "first" if you are racing a quicker-handicapped car.

JEASUS...

Talk about circular logic...

Do you feel the same way about breakouts? I kind doubt it. Same deal... different rule.

[bill dedman]

Originally Posted by Ed Fernandez

Thank you Alan for explaining this so even a caveman can understand it.I think that all points racers in S/SS should have to forfeit 10 points per race because they are so much better than the rest of us and our self esteem is being damaged.Why shouldn't we be able to win races and make more money just because we aren't good enough to do it on our own talent.

Why would you suggesst something that would give some drivers an advantage/\???

What I am sugessting, not only doesn't give ANYONE an advantage, it TAKES AWAY an unfair advantge that exists under the present setup.

How can you think that that is a bad thing?

Tell me; what's the downside to that change?

Go ahead, ED.... tell me who would be damaged with a red light rule wherein EVERYBODY gets the same chance to red light....

I'm waiting... Ed...

[bill dedman]

Originally Posted by Alan Roehrich

I've raced under the same rules for about 3 decades, give or take, and it seems like a reasonable balance to me, even when I go red first, but the other guy is more red than I am.

If I go red, I go red, if I do it first, shame on me, even if the other guy was worse. I don't care, I blame every loss on the guy I look at in the mirror when I brush my teeth. If I lost, I didn't do everything better than the guy in the other lane, or at least I didn't do enough things better than he did.

In regards to your contention, "it seems like a reasonable balance to me," ....

No, Alan, a "reasonable balance" would be if both cars were treated equally by the rules. They's not.

Also, you failed to answer the burning question in my last query, in reference to your comment about having lost to a "first red light situation."

I asked,"When did your opponent have HIS chance to red light???"

Why didn't you comment on that one-sided situation???

I think I know...
I think we BOTH know...