What would you do with the current CJ and DP car situation?

[Chad Rhodes]

Originally Posted by JHeath

If one does, I will get beat ,so what, I am more interested in having fun at the track with my friends. Lets face it, most of us lose way more than we will ever win.

I find enough new ways to lose on my own, I don't need NHRA making up more, lol.

[Ed Wright]

Originally Posted by JHeath

If one does, I will get beat ,so what, I am more interested in having fun at the track with my friends. Lets face it, most of us lose way more than we will ever win.

In class eliminations or in a heads up? You are evidently a bracket racer.

[Jeff Teuton]

Think all the people who voted, about 180, own stock cars?

[Dgal]

Originally Posted by Jeff Teuton

Think all the people who voted, about 180, own stock cars?

Probably about the same percentage as to the Cobra/Jet Drag Paks that comprise the 20 or so votes at the bottom.

[NewHemi]

Before we even picked up our Drag Pak car in November of 2009 , we were already involved in talks, with other Drag Pak guys, chassis biulders, and Chrysler, about trying to get the cars moved into their own class.

Don't blame the current situation on Drag Pak owners, or even on the Fords (as much as I would like ot blame them..) because it isn't, and never was a plot by Drag pag owners or racers to blow up the indexes up and down the stock classes.

We were put into stock classes and race where we were put.

The Ford guys have some discipline and will keep their HP manegaeable and therefore would be an issue in mid stock clases for a long time to come.

The Mopar guys with everything but the 5.9, however, (at least the ones with 5.7 cars), apparently have little or no discipline, and are just out there "showing off" without regard to how many HP hits we get. So it is unlikely that the Mopars will be bothing many of the lower classes very long. We started in F/SA with our 5.7, in a week got bumped up to E/SA, and another week got bumped again to D/SA, and now are an A/B/C car. And it is only a matter time until we are running AA/SA and A/SA only.

And then it will probably happen all over again in Super Stock.

So, for those who were thinking it would take too long to get the auto hp system to work, you were wrong at least on the Drag Paks.

David
The New Hemi Guy

[Dgal]

Originally Posted by NewHemi

So, for those who were thinking it would take too long to get the auto hp system to work, you were wrong at least on the Drag Paks.

David
The New Hemi Guy

Not so fast. The AHFS is working, but it is far from final. It is working by design just like it does with any other combination, but the Drag Paks and Cobra Jets started from a very underfactored number. The only way one can say it is working is due to mathematical calculations and not that it is working in the respect that the cars are properly factored.

And to infer that this is much to do about nothing is disingenuous at best. The complaints about the current Drag Pak/Cobra Jet combinations are the tip of the iceberg. It has taken nearly 3 years on some of these combos to get them within sight of their proper horsepower ratings. Where were we at this point with the much maligned LT1s? They were going into their own class to finish sorting out and they weren't that much out of line in the first place!

Back to the tip of the iceberg. For you to suggest that we were wrong with the complaints, how do you suggest we handle the Drag Pak/Cobra Jet combos that are yet to be released? Are we to expect to wait three years on each combo to get them close? This is a perpetual problem for Stock Eliminator, Super Stock, and Super Stock GT (which is the most difficult to factor, IMHO).

So, David, how do you suggest we handle this going forward? You know my feelings. The FX class for Stock is the perfect place to show off these cars and combos. It is self fulfilling. Frankly, I don't see how you have a logical argument for anything different, but I am listening.

Don

[NewHemi]

I never said that the cars were "properly factored" from the start.
I did say that a car that started about a month ago at 305 HP, and now is at 348 HP would seem to indicate that, at least in the case of the 5.7 DP Challenger that the AHFS works at least a little bit.

And unless you know a way to turn back the clock, I don't think all of the whining and complaining is going to change the initial factors one bit.

I also absolutely agreed that the cars need their own class, and even told you about talks that were held clear back last year about getting these cars into one, and my thoughts that the best thing for these cars would be to be put into their own class.

Back to the tip of what iceberg? As for complaining about cars and factors that haven't even been released yet, what good is that? What can you base your complaints about those yet to be produced and yet to be factored cars upon? Do you just assume that the NHRA is out to screw you, or do you have inside info on the factors there? If you have specifics, let's talk about it. If not, then why don't we wait until there is some pain, before we start bleeding.

Back to the basics of the discussion.

Should these cars be in a separate class? YES!

Now, I have already agreed on literally every one of your truly salient points. (Although I may not agree that I was somehow disingenuous in my attitude about this situation. I still don't think anything is going to change just by complaining about it. I even tried by having talks behind the scenes with parties involved, and that hasn't done a lot of good lately.)

So what good has the poll, or all of this talk done?

Let me know when it really does more than just make you feel better to get it off your chest. And if that is all it does, then just keep doing what you need to do.

It makes no sense to continue to tell each other how we feel, since you apparently don't seem to hear me, and although I have heard you, and understand your position, I still don't see any real good situation changing result from the discussion at this point.

David
The New Hemi Guy

[Jeff Teuton]

The 5.7 has been hit 43 hp since June 2010, obviously the system is functioning. The 6.1 has gotten 14 and the 5.9 has 9. And again, where was all this concern before these cars came on the scene. The bad factored cars just sucked hind *** and that was ok with stock and super stock primarily because most of them are GM cars and it's ok for others to get the bad factors. Now because GM has elected not to participate, it's a bad thing.
I didn't change. I had a bad factored car, not slow, just factored bad, and after that many years of getting my *** kicked, I bought another car. Now I'm on the other end. Like I said, I didn't change. Run another poll. Get the posters to show what class they ran in the last two years, and what brand they run. On a larger note, there are probably less than 30% of the racers who give a hoot about going fast. Other than Indy, they get in the show and in many cases beat the crap out of the fast cars. Maybe a seperate posting about Indy, and the rest of the races. One thing the new cars pointed out even more is the need for new parts in the old cars. I have only been asking for that for the last 15 years. New parts accross the board, not a select few combos. Hell last year I found 3 carbs for a 69 Imperial (the only year it was used) which I claim in a GT car I got. I love to hear a chevy guy complain about parts. Try that one on for size. The fixes aren't hard, and they will come. Just look at Stock Trucks and the changes that took place, The LT1 and LS1, and some others. There will never be pure parity in these classes and Stock and Super Stock will always be a dynamic pair of eliminators. This discussion reminds me of two old happenings. The best known is in NASCAR when they outlawed the Hemi. It just went too fast. In NHRA around 1962 there was the 409 Chevy and the 406 Ford and there may be 20 or 30 at any race. Then this ugly goat-looking l962 Mopar with a 413 with the carbs mounted sideways appears. Same arguments, just 40 or 50 years ago.

[Dgal]

Originally Posted by NewHemi

I never said that the cars were "properly factored" from the start.
I did say that a car that started a couple of months ago at 305 HP and now is 348HP would indicate that, at least in the case of the 5.7 DP Challenger would indicate that AHFS works a little.

And unless you know a way to turn back the clock, I don't think all of the whining and complaining is going to change the initial factors one bit.

And I absolutely agreed, and even told you about talks that were held clear back last year about getting these cars into, and that the best thing was for these cars to be put into their own class.

Back to the tip of what iceberg? As for complaining about cars and factors that haven't even been released yet, what good is that? What can you base your complaints about those yet to be produced and factored cars upon? Do you just assume that the NHRA is out to screw you, or do you have inside info on the factors there? If you have specifics, let's talk about it. If not, then why don't we wait until there is some pain, before we start bleeding.

Back to the basics of the discussion.

Should these cars be in a separate class? YES!

I have agreed on literally every one of your truly salient points.

Although I may not agree that I was somehow disingenuous in my attitude about this situation. I still don't think anything is going to change just by complaining about it. I even tried by having talks behind the scenes with parties involved, and that hasn't done a lot of good lately. So how will whining publicly change it?

So what good has the poll, or all of this talk done?

Let me know when it really does more than just make you feel better to get it off your chest. And if that is all it does, then just keep doing what you need to do.

David
The New Hemi Guy

Well, you are backing off your "it is working" to "works a little." But this is from your previous post. "So, for those who were thinking it would take too long to get the auto hp system to work, you were wrong at least on the Drag Paks." It has taken too long and they are not there, yet. And only one of them (the 5.7) is within sight.

What good is complaining about cars that haven't been released yet? We were complaining about these before they were released and guess what, we were right. The cars are going to be released and they are not Stock Eliminator cars! They are Factory Experimental Cars! Until they get them in the proper class then the complaints are justified. I know you agree that they should be in their own class, but you don't think I have the right to complain about their current categorization then you are flat wrong.

What do I base the complaints on? Refer back to the previous paragraph and the fact that these motors are cherry picked parts from the perfomance catalog and not from ANY car that has been registered for the street. Factory experiments.

NHRA out to screw me? Don't know about that, but they sure put their interests before the sportsmen. Can you show any differently? I don't have any inside info on the factors, but they have repeatedly factored these combos so low it is comical. There is a pattern if you haven't noticed.

Why wait? You know the pain is there until they are put in their own class (which is about to happen). You keep asking why I have a problem with these future combos without know the HP factor. The HP factor isn't the real problem. The real problem is that these are not Stock cars, they are experiments and there is no way in Hades that a stock combo can compete with Comp Eliminator pieces or power adders with any amount of money, time, and development. There are physics involved here.

How does "whining" as you call it do any good. Don't fool yourself into thinking we are in a vacuum here with our comments. The public comments in these forums do make their way back to Glendora and they do help the cause.

It may be before your internet time, but there was a popular forum called Home Theater.com. At that time there was a product introduced by Circuit City called DIVX. This was a competing format to the newly introduced DVDs. Basically, DIVX was more leasing the movies where DVDs were ownership. The choices were fine since many people would watch a movie maybe once or twice which would make the DIVX format much more cost effective. No problem with choices, so what's the rub?

Well....Circuit City had lobbied the studios not to release their movies on DVD and only do it on DIVX. Disney agreed to Circuit City's pressure and would only release their movies on this pay per view format. This was about the time that Lion King was coming out. Can you imagine how many times your kid or grandkid would want to watch a partial movie of Lion King? Pony up $4.95 for the first 48 hours and then $3 for every 48 hour time slot after that. This would have been a huge money maker for DIVX and the studios! Warner Bros wouldn't cave into Circuit City along with a couple of others, but the majority of the studios could see how this would be a gold mine.

Back to the public "whining." The studios would monitor this website in order to get the "pulse" of the general public about DIVX. The hard core enthusiast were on this website like they are here (see a pattern?). We hammered Circuit City and it was having an effect. CC started putting plants (DIVX employees) on the website to make it appear that DIVX wasn't so bad and there was a lot of support for the format. Problem was that we had a plant of our own within DIVX and we knew what was they were doing. Slowly, but surely we exposed each of the plants on the forums. They studios could see the true feeling of the buying public and started releasing their titles on both formats. That was all we asked. Just give us the choice to buy or lease.

It didn't take long for the DIVX format to fail because nobody really liked the idea of variable costs vs. fixed costs for your movie library. The DIVX fiasco cost CC over a billion dollars to shut down. Continuing bad decisions put them into bankruptcy.

This was about 15 years ago. You have to believe that companies realize that the internet can potentially break you if you are not careful. So this public "whining" that you discount is not discounted by these companies or even the NHRA.

Don

[MikeFicacci]

All three DP combos still need horsepower. Probably about 40 for the 6.1, 50 for the 5.7, and god help us all when someone fast builds a 5.9 and goes 10.0 cause that thing needs about 80 and presently no one from H up is safe.