Automatic Horsepower Factoring System

[jarn05]

this is something i sent to len imbrogno last year when there was a disscussion about this same situation,


hi len , i am concerned as to what is happening to stock / super stock , i have been a racer since 1986 and have seen a lot of changes some good and some bad, i do support the ahfs but not entirely how it works, i am sure you get email on this touchy subject all the time,the last ten years i feel s/ss eliminators regardless of high car counts has taken a major turn for the worst, in 1996 i was ridiculed for using superseded carbs on my max wedge and now cars can run with aftermarket edelbrock aluminum heads when they never came with aluminum heads and that is ok in my book as long as everyone can have them which right now is not the case,i don't think anymore examples are necessary i know from past experience , from reading your posts you know s/ss inside out and upside down.

what is on my mind is the 2 tenth reduction for indexes is needed , ahfs is needed , what i think needs to be changed and i have been largely voiced about this at the races is "NO CLASS RUNS DURING ELIMINATIONS!!!". ahfs should only apply during CLASS ELIMINATIONS at national events,it should not even apply on setting records , these classes are for performance based go as fast as you can with what you have legally cars .

i see it like this if every one has to dial in during eliminations the slow cars/owners(under the index) will not complain when the get beat dialing in/handicap racing and because performance factor is not an issue, ahfs will not be an issue because the playing ground is flattened evenly for everyone,i feel this could only improve car counts in these classes.

if racers like to go and be the fastest ,spend the most money or just like to brag that is ok too! those racers can go to national events to run class eliminations or show up to select divisional races and run top stock/ss,or set class records, class eliminations at national events should be where cars are judged for ahfs, on the grandest scale for divisional sportsman racers there is. i feel it is a joke that when you set a record more than 1.5 under the index that you don't receive the record for your accomplishment and get factored or indexed the next day as well records are meant to stand ! they should not ever go back to a minimum the next guy in line even if it takes 10 years should have to go faster. in your time working for nhra have you ever seen a class or combination slow down? i never have , all of my cars are constantly a work in progress to always find something to pick up a little bit.

s/ss racers are bracket racers ,even if the majority does not want to admit it, having class runs during eliminations does nothing for the class,if class runoffs were only used at national events it would make it more appealing for racers to attend and compete at a divisional level to qualify for acceptance at the national level where class run offs could be more of prestigious event like it used to be when i started racing.

my summary of the current situation in these classes is,

1 money it ruins everything. racers who have it ,spend it to go quick and fast at all costs, racers who don't have a lot to spend complain about the fast cars and the money they spend, fix? no class run offs during eliminations.

2 ahfs same as # 1 big money spenders set record which triggers factoring and kills the class for slower or lower funded cars ,the fix ,don't ahfs record runs it is not necessary ,remember there should not be any class runs during eliminations either , the ahfs should only be applied per car engine combo, registrant nhra # and driver ,ex i run a 1962 413 maxwedge nhra rated 395hp and you have the same car as me, i run 1.44 under the index at a national event in class eliminations,you run .50 under the index at the same race should you have to bear the penalty for me going that fast ? no only i should, i would guess that 90 % of the available combos are properly rated ,your car that you are going to race would have to be registered with nhra divisional office yearly and proper notification would be required if switching combinations, at first it would be a little more work building the data base but once all information is logged it would be no work per division to keep track of racers combos , on mondays all the divisions sync up and properly adjust racer car hp combinations.

3 if the class run offs during eliminations were removed the possibility to condense the classes becomes a reality, there would be no bitching about stick shift verse automatic or fi combos.

i know these are only my opinions but if enough of us racers would work together and voice our opinions to the people who make the rule changes happen instead of complianing just maybe the racers as a whole could accomplish something positive.

jimi vignogna

[Bruce Noland]

We are not bracket racing. There are more than a few of us who still believe in the performance angle of this sport. The indexes need to be lowered atleast .20 and probably more like .30 if they come up with a new generous runner rule.

For those of you who want to go back to the good old days of men with agendas making horsepower decisions - don't look now because that is happening right now. The fact that nhra or Lucas has some language about the ahfs on their sites dosen't mean a damn thing. Because we have one little guy who is making all the decisions as he sees fit and we just roll over and give this guy what ever he wants when ever he wants it. He doesn't own or race a car so it's no sweat off his butt when he decides to back stab a combination and he has done this to many combinations; not just one. Know what I mean Wesley?

Evan, I read your post about how the ahfs stinks. Then you go after us for bitching without offering solutions. Many people are in favor of lowering the indexes. That is the best way to stop the bitching. Lower the indexes .30 and leave the ahfs trigger at -1.15. nhra has given us +30 horsepower in changes and done nothing to account for the increased performance. And then nhra adds insult to injury by giving horsepower to those racers who best exploit the accepted chnages. Total, TOTAL BS!

Right now NO racer should totally believe anything posted on the nhra or Lucas site about the ahfs. These guys have betrayed our trust too many times.

[GEORGE PETERSON]

How Does Nhra Know If The Car Responsible For Horsepower Increases Under A.h.f.s. Legal?


George Peterson

Duzac/peterson D/s 4448

[Evan Smith]

Bruce,

I have not gone after anyone, as you put it. Instead, I am one to try an find a solution and get on with fixing problems. I know there are problems with the AHFS, which is one reason I threw my name in the hat to be on the committee. I have a real passion, like many on this board, for Class racing and I would like for the hard work of many racers to result in better competition and reward, rather than the constant worry of an hp penalty.

Like many racers, I also tire of those who just complain and offer no solution. I'm just stating my opinion, which I am entitled to, as you do all the time. However, if I hated the state of the union or complained as much as some do I would find another way to spend my money and time. No one is forced to be out here. Again, that is my opinion.

For the record, I don't think the AHFS stinks, I think it stinks that so many people have to sandbag for fear of getting an HP adjustment. Stock and Super Stock are performance-based classes and the current system has not kept up with the ability of the cars. Nor has it kept up with the reward given to those with a fast car. Like you, I feel, no, I know, the triggers are way to low for the capabilities of the cars and the "new" allowable mods. Lowering the indexes is one answer.

Evan

[Dave Ribeiro]

George,

That should be an automatic rule ? No-HP til the cars effecting the class are torn down and found legal....Too many times months later those cars that which created the HP are torn down and found illegal and the HP still stands...WHY ??? The easy way to solve this is make him tear-down if he's legal give then HP, if not don't...

Bruce,
I think it best if we can solve this without name calling and blaming just one person, because we all know there's more than one person envolved in all the calls at NHRA...That said lets see if the racing board can make a difference, by simple changes and having one set of Rules for everyone.. I do agree with Bruce and many others about taking away the 2-3 tenths, this would make the index's alittle more realistic...I would also like to see everyone get torn down at least once a year.. There are many racers who have NEVER BEEN torn down and have won many races and gone fast... Everyone should enjoy in the FUN !!!! As I have said before lets start teardowns from the bottom up and that would get rid of the 1000' club .... Why can't we just race.....Bruce, by the way last year's bad guy was Bob Lang, and I know I have been racing longer than you and many others and have never had a problem with either Bob or Wesly.
I am sure I am not the only one that feels that way.. If you have a problem with those guys, talk to them directly and leave the rest of us out of your arguement... I really think we can get more done if we go about this in a calmer fashion....just my two cents, Good Luck Evan, you will do fine don't forget the racer !!! DJR,

[Lynn A McCarty]

AHFS system is saved by the fact that humans make the final judgment except in extreme cases. Humans are flawed too, but it keeps the AHFS somewhat under control and provide a flawed but reasonable snap shot of performance.

The AHFS is just a tool. It could be way better, but it is still better than nothing. It is like using a hammer and chisel to cut your toe nails.

1.) It artificially keeps all the "fast" bogus combos on top
2.) It does nothing to separate good and bad tracks.
3.) It uses false statistical data to determine unfair HP ratings vs. a good innovative racer
4.) It falsely assumes apples and oranges are the same.
5.) It is corrected by some good humans that know the difference when it raises its ugly head
6.) It does nothing for the improvement of performance of after market parts.
7.) It is way better than doing nothing, but could be dramatically and statistically improved.

All of these things could be accomplished with very little work or expense. It just takes the willingness to do so.

[Bruce Noland]

Evan,
I believe you made the comment about bitching without offering solutions. I was simply following up on your remarks. And you're right nobody is forcing us to race, but are you saying we should be happy about a system that cheats the racers? I voted for you but you are already sounding a little too nhra-ish. You say it stinks that the racers have to suffer as a result of the ahfs, but then you say for the record that the ahfs doesn't stink. Diplomacy is cool - being disingenuous is not.

Dave,
Another lecture from you and I'm really going to scream. I'm just pointing out the sorry condition of the ahfs and some of the double talk that is offered to support it.

[vic guilmino]

EVAN
you are one who can run 1.40 under
are you going to do something about your self

[Evan Smith]

Bruce,

I am not saying you should be happy and turn a blind eye to something that bothers you. No one should. Nor am I on the NHRA's side. I am a racer and I am going to do the best I can for the Stock/Super Stock racers as a group. I am also a straight shooter, just because something causes bad results doesn't mean the root of the problem is completely terrible. You make it pretty clear that you have a personal beef with NHRA and I was not pointing a finger at you or anyone. Furthermore, you are as opinionated as anyone on this board so don't blast me for speaking my mind. I appreciate the vote and you know me well enough to know I will break my *** to make things better.

Everyone agrees that it is not a perfect racing world and understand that I am far from satisfied with the current state of Class racing. That is why I got involved. You don't see me on here bitching about this and bitching about that. I jumped in to make a change. Many people want, want, want, without realizing the challenges for the sanctioning body. From time to time I will offer a view from the other side of the fence, because I have experience in promoting races, working for the racetrack as a track official. Just because I offer this view, doesn't mean I am NHRA-ish.

We all know the AHFS is not perfect, but do I think it totally stinks, no. Does it need changes, it sure does. I just spent the better part of an hour on the phone with Wesley talking about changes that can be implemented. He assures me that the council will be able to make changes and that he wants racers to be happy and for a system to be fair for all. You can believe what you want, but this is what I was told.


Vic,

Those are strong words from someone who's car is very fast. I run my car hard, and close to the minimum weight at all times. I think you misunderstood my post. All I was pointing out is that the AHFS offers the chance to sandbag and many racers do a good job of that. I wasn't saying that is a bad thing. Of course it is a pity that racers have to do so to such an extent. We should be allowed the freedom to run hard. You have to play the game if you don't want hp. I can name quite a few racers who run a "D" at "F" weight.

Evan

[Evan Smith]

George Fitzpatrick,

Can you please call me tomorrow. 201-712-9300 x 644. Or shoot me an email at evan.smith@sourceinterlink.com. I have some information for you.

Evan