NHRA LODRS Divisional payout info?

[Mike Carr]

Originally Posted by X-TECH MAN

Remember last year....The "Combo in the Hills" paid $10,000 to win. They had what....84 or so cars stock/Super Stock combined. Thats a really GOOD payout plus the guys who kicked in the extra payouts. One reason the car count was down was there were NO grade points. NHRA has a captive audiance. Its called "GRADE POINTS". If you dont have those then you no can go play in their ball field at their National events. IHRA dosent hang that around the necks of the races so racers are less likley to attend an IHRA points race and the circuit/combo events due to limited resources and that equals less car counts. The "Combo in the Hills" is proof that its not all about the round and win money.

Ain't that the truth....

[Phillip marvetz]

So what has changed that makes the payout percentage so much less than it used to be? Lower car counts or higher operating expenses for HRA's? What needs to be done to get it back to were it used to be?

[Dinsdale]

This may come as a shock to some but a track has to pay a substantial fee to NHRA just for the privledge of holding a divisional event. Their advertising, staff and operational costs are all up for the weekend then they are responsable for covering payouts. No idea how that formula works but what was once an event that made a little money for a track is now becoming a burden for some.

Lower car and spectator counts hurt and there's alot of reasons for that. I agree that the pay-in VS pay-out is completely lopsided but as been often discussed here, this deal is broken from the top down and I don't think it will ever get fixed.

[Rollins_2241]

Current all-told expenses for an NHRA Lucas Oil weekend are about $70K for the track operator, between sanctioning fee (around $15K), payout, staff, insurance, lights, and amortized expenses (but not including real estate).

The "bogey" to make a profit is therefore probably between 380-400 cars depending on the track. Current car counts vary between 280 to 420, depending on weather, date, and location. It's not a low risk proposition even with the current payout.

And there may be fewer contingency sponsors, but I've noticed a higher percentage of them pay quickly.

[Michael Beard]

The last few posts are dead-on. File race promotion under "You think you know, but you have no idea." A partner and I promoted a big money Footbrake race Thanksgiving weekend, so I know first hand what track rentals cost, *and* how many thousands of dollars you can rack up doing promotion for an entire year, along with all of the little extras we did for the racers. Our payouts are some of the strongest anywhere. There's a reason why we've chosen the business name "Loose Rocker Promotions". Most people in their right mind wouldn't work for 10-12 months on a single event and pay out what we do. Also, something that we do is offer purse incentives. If we have 200+ cars in any race, we DOUBLE the rate the round money increases. (FYI, we had 191 entries on the first day last year, and I'm confident that we'll hit the bonus level this year! ...if gas prices don't go nutty) And payout percentages change depending on car count. Our two $5K events payout percentages were 10% different.... and that came out to a difference of $4,500. This is not a game. This is real money, and until you put YOUR butt on the line, it's not as 'real' to you. You can go from making good money to losing everything very quickly. What's the incentive for a track or promoter to increase their risk exposure massively compared to the 'safe' profit of a test n' tune?

If it were easy, everyone would do it. The US Class Nationals was a slam dunk, right? Why hasn't it been done since? I know, I've looked at the numbers hard, and at one time had a date and location already in talks with a track. There's a reason... and y'all already touched on it. I sincerely hope that the Combo in the Hills is huge this year, as it deserves to be. Many people didn't support THAT race last year, yet we think that more cars are going to magically materialize at Divisional races on either side of the fence if they pay more money?

That being said... yah... R/U this weekend in a short race, and will still be in the hole. Coming away with the points lead with a gold card and TOC qualifying position on the line is the only justification for going. (Well, that and both Ralph Hester's BBQ and Ron Ortiz's steak, wings, and... um... moss.) My same performance (or lack thereof, as it turns out) would earn me $125 at an LODRS, far worse than my R/U take. Realistically, Orlando and Gainesville make no financial sense for me, particularly with this being my busiest time of the year. With 45+ customer projects in line right now, I can't afford two straight weeks of 3-day work weeks. I can race locally for two $2K's this weekend and two $3K's next weekend. (and probably won't even go this weekend... need to work and catch up.)

[63corvette]

Don't forget NHRA gave the Division Race two more classes to make payouts on a couple of years ago which increased their costs. Top Sportsman and Top Dragster were added but very few new cars were added and not enough to make up for the added payouts. Most of those class cars came out of Super Gas and Super Comp and those classes were reduced in numbers.
I had one track operator tell me that change took all the profit out of their division race the first year. I have not talked to him about it since that first year but I know a Division Race is not as profitable as a Big Money Bracket Race at that one track.
My 2 Cents
Rick Cates

[jmcarter]

Originally Posted by 63corvette

Don't forget NHRA gave the Division Race two more classes to make payouts on a couple of years ago which increased their costs. Top Sportsman and Top Dragster were added but very few new cars were added and not enough to make up for the added payouts. Most of those class cars came out of Super Gas and Super Comp and those classes were reduced in numbers.
I had one track operator tell me that change took all the profit out of their division race the first year. I have not talked to him about it since that first year but I know a Division Race is not as profitable as a Big Money Bracket Race at that one track.
My 2 Cents
Rick Cates

Don't forget D2 also runs the 10.00, 11.00, 12.00 classes and their low car counts wouldn't have paid their purse last year, suppose NHRA still wants to experiment with this since the Unleashed thing seems to have kinda fallen on it's face. Local bracket races are so much more attractive to many, especially with diesel hovering at $4.00 with more increases predicted. Personally, I want the local tracks to stay healthy; otherwise there will be no tracks besides those like Bruton's Charlotte facility, existing just for the sake of a few specialty events and NHRA's Fuel show.

[Toby Lang]

Originally Posted by Michael Beard

My same performance (or lack thereof, as it turns out) would earn me $125 at an LODRS, far worse than my R/U take.

Well, to me an R/U is an R/U no matter how many cars there are. So, an R/U at a D2 LODRS would have earned you $500 ($600 at a D1 event.)

I guess the question is then, how much would you have earned last weekend if it were a six round race and you went out in the third round?


-Toby

[Michael Beard]

Originally Posted by Toby Lang

Well, to me an R/U is an R/U no matter how many cars there are. So, an R/U at a D2 LODRS would have earned you $500 ($600 at a D1 event.)

While that's a positive attitude I appreciate, it is not statistically correct. I won (if you want to call it that) 3 rounds to get the R/U ($500). My chances of winning just 3 consecutive rounds is nearly double that of winning 5 rounds to R/U. Every round more that you have to go, you have to add a factor of your round-win percentage. The more rounds in a race, the less chance you have of winning it.

I guess the question is then, how much would you have earned last weekend if it were a six round race and you went out in the third round?

To be honest, I don't know that I would've traveled 13hrs if I thought it was going to be a 6-round race. Historically, I knew that Super Stock at this event was likely to be a 3-round or 4-round race tops, which made the risk of the significant travel expenses worth the gamble, particularly with the race being a Wild Card claim and Sunday being a TOC Qualifier with National Event level contingency. It certainly wouldn't be a cakewalk with the quality of drivers that comprised the limited field, but the odds still play out favorably. While the weekend could've turned out better, the R/U kept the losses at a minimum, and I come out with a 35 point lead in Div. 2 SS, helping me toward a TOC Qualifier spot and potentially a Div. Championship which would be another $1,500 and a Gold Card. This is one of the few years that I haven't had a gold card, something that would've turned this weekend's venture into the plus side.

That being said, if you wish to compare round money only...

IHRA Div. 2
3rd round loss = $80 (-$55 less than entry)
4th round loss = $120 (-$15 less than entry, assuming 17+ cars)
5th round loss = $160 (+$25 more than entry)

NHRA Div. 2
3rd round loss = $100 (-$60 less than entry)
4th round loss = $125 (-$35 less than entry)
5th round loss = $150 (-$10 less than entry)

...not a *huge* difference in the big scheme of things, but the travel expenses and days off work make NHRA racing significantly more expensive. NHRA's contingency program is significantly better, which is one of the primary reasons why I will be running some.

[skills]

Okay Mr. Beard since you have done this what is the solution? Can't classes get their own sponsors? Would that help the payouts with out hurting the tracks cut. In the end owning a track is a business so a healthy financially stable race track is good for everybody.