DP #24 Engine failure....

[Billy Nees]

Originally Posted by GUMP

I heard different from a good source. Even if that were true, my suggestion to you is the same as it was for Atlanta, run a little on the soft side until you fully understand your combination.

Drooze, OBTW Bob Lang and Co. are looking for a reason to shove "oil retention devices" down our throats and will be keeping records of any engine failures at National and LODRS events! So-o-o-o could you (and any one else playing with new stuff) please get it out to your local track on a T+T day and try to sort it out? There are already 2 Stocker engine failures at Nat. Events this year (at least) and I really don't want to put diapers on my stuff any more than you want to hurt any more parts!

[Alan Roehrich]

Drooze,
Be aware that most rod companies do not offer "bolt upgrades" on their budget I beam rods for a reason. And it isn't to keep the cost down.

They basic bolts in premium rods to keep the cost down, and then they offer upgrades for those.

There's not much sense in putting a $150 set of premium bolts in a set of $250 budget I beam rods, because the bolt is way stronger than the rod. And then you'll probably need to spend another $100 or so to resize them.

And Billy is correct, it might not be just you, your dad, and your wallets that you are hurting here. In many ways.

[Chad Rhodes]

Originally Posted by Alan Roehrich

Drooze,
Be aware that most rod companies do not offer "bolt upgrades" on their budget I beam rods for a reason. And it isn't to keep the cost down.

very true Alan

[Chris "drooze" Wertman]

Understood, and youre right, the bolt replacment (and its a direct fit) is most definatley stronger than the rod itself. But right now thats the least of my issues.

In regards, we didnt send an untested car down the track, I forgot we also ran T&T the Wed prior AND the day before the Atlanta Div , so the car had some 15 passes on it before the old man took it down the track. We had shift points and rev limits set very convervitive. Last shift points were 7200, I just looked at the logs from the prior pass. I will offer no apologies on that.

Trust me, if we had any inking that would happen I wouldnt have let him take it down the track. An oildown in staging is the best place to do it obviously. Not only for the track, but for US or whoever was driving.

I talked to Stanton this morning, Stanton was given a list of parts to USE, it was what was approved, its not like they went to him and said build us a good engine, Mopar Engineers, (and I dont think any are still there) basically gave him a list made the arrangments and said here do this. Then worked with the NHRA to get things approved, why, why in gods name they choose these rods is beyond me. The rods though (in our case) werent the issue, although I have heard others have had out of round issues at high rpm.

So what should I do, sit on a car until all the really awesome parts are approved....yeah well die waiting.

Or should I try to do the best with what we have and can ?

I take the second option.

And Im not cavalier about the oildown, Im going to fit the car with a diaper for OUR safety, in this car it will be no big nuisance. there is adequate clearance around and under big time.

Ive actually considered and am considering a custom alloy pan since there is so much clearance much like we use on the GP bikes, and Charlies Oil Pans (are about 1/2 mile from me and hes a heck of a guy, so if we can make some measurments and fab something).....you think an oildown on a car is an issue , waitll you downshift at 12k into a turn and spray a 3in WM3 tire on a bike with goo....thats a whole new feeling of oh ****....

Back to my phone, Ive got the "good" answer now , just to make it happen by tommorow........and it aint cheap but well....the good answer seldom is....Ill have 1/2 as much in my rods as the rest of the engine.....1500 for a set of flippin rods.....ayeeeeeeee....

Originally Posted by Alan Roehrich

Drooze,
Be aware that most rod companies do not offer "bolt upgrades" on their budget I beam rods for a reason. And it isn't to keep the cost down.

They basic bolts in premium rods to keep the cost down, and then they offer upgrades for those.

There's not much sense in putting a $150 set of premium bolts in a set of $250 budget I beam rods, because the bolt is way stronger than the rod. And then you'll probably need to spend another $100 or so to resize them.

And Billy is correct, it might not be just you, your dad, and your wallets that you are hurting here. In many ways.

[Adger Smith]

Read the stock rules... A fabricated pan is not going to happen unless you get it approved by NHRA.
Question: You stated in a previous post "The rods weren't the issue". Then why do you need a 1500 set of rods? Just to make it happen tomorrow? If you want to save your pocket book you need to take things a litlle slower and learn about your combination instead of blazing away. Do some real long term testing and tuning and development work. With the do it tomorrow or right now outlook you are your own worst enemy.
Esp with a new combination.

[Chris "drooze" Wertman]

Originally Posted by Adger Smith

Read the stock rules... A fabricated pan is not going to happen unless you get it approved by NHRA.
Question: You stated in a previous post "The rods weren't the issue". Then why do you need a 1500 set of rods? Just to make it happen tomorrow? If you want to save your pocket book you need to take things a litlle slower and learn about your combination instead of blazing away. Do some real long term testing and tuning and development work. With the do it tomorrow or right now outlook you are your own worst enemy.
Esp with a new combination.

Not a fabricated oil pan...a fabricated hold pan below say 1.5 in gap.....but I will look into the rules on Oil retention devices....I wasnt aware there was an approved list for those. I looked I must have missed it.

In OUR case the rods werent the issue, the bolts were. BUT others have had issues with the rods. So bolts then become the issue for the SCAT Rods.....Ok....1 problem solved 1 created....the Journals on a DP Crank are 2.100 , they are also widened to accept the Chevy 6.200 / 2.100 / .927 pin rod. Now, I can "try" to get someone I trust to make it happen in short order on the crank thats not going to happen. AND then Ive still got **** rods with good bolts. Kinda like putting a dress on a pig in my book.

Soooo...I talked to Bruce B this morning and we went through some things, Currently for the 5.7 which is what we are building there is no assy weight listed. That was an issue with anything but the stock rod. (SCAT in this case) BUT Manley has a good pro series H beam, I hear its good anyway. AND its the only accpeted replacment for the 5.7....it uses stock journal and bearing sizes. So...thats good. The price isnt.....the ONLY other people working on getting a rod approved are K1, and its about 6 weeks off in the "cycle" ok....so its cheaper its an overseas H beam....but is it better than the Manley ? Well the Manley I beam is made here, forged here and machined here in the states....so.....doubtful, then what Ive got is "the RIGHT" answer.....

Im not going to put a dress on a pig again now that I have an APPROVED option, even Bruce wasnt aware that the min weights on the rods had been lowered to 600, and that then made the already approved manley rod legal for the 6.1 as well which it was listed for, we went through EVERYTHING today....

Now that I have the good answer I will proceed with it. in 6 weeks from now there is going to be no better answer.....not that I see...

Ive spent 6 months learning everything DP, talking to everyone in the know about the DP stuff and making lists, I wont say I know more than anyone I dont...thats the nice thing about the DP "Confederation" is it is a collective effort of many of us trying to find the good answers, what was shared with me will be shared, back and vice versa. We are all in the same boat as it were. That was a large portion for the reasoning of this thread. To share information, and responsed and observation as well as conclusions and resolutions with other DP owners.

It In my book has led me to where I am in short order, I would call that a resounding success, not just for us, but for all who follow.

[MYRONARL1119]

Chris, As a "class racer in remission" I would like to ad my thought as to another avenue that I think might well be worth considering. Having gone thru the same thing that most stock and super stock racer have at 1 time in their racing career,engine failure, I would like to suggest this option to you. Please consider finding a very good local or regional engine builder that has the means and knowledge to build your power. I think that if you are under a time limitation, you must consider buying your power. At least consider buying 1 good "bullet", and if nothing else, try to duplicate it. Talk to a good engine builder for his input. You have several in the area that can either help you or advise you where to find power. I would suggest talking to someone like Gary Russell, Joey Wilkes,and even consider buying a good "bullet" from one of the players like Johns, Duel, Tueton. Or consider Mopar power builder out of state , even if it is on the "left coast". You need to explore your options..Just because you can build a 15,000 rpm motorcycle engine doesn't mean that this is your cup of tea. Outsourcing power is not a bad think, if it were guys like Woodro Josey and bulders of that caliber won't have been building for years. Also if you can buy at least 1 good motor, you would then have a spare if you must continue down the path you are on. Someone once told me, just pile your money on the kitchen floor and light it, then you'll still have your free think. I don't claim to be an engine builder, just having owned and raced stock classes since 1966 of and on. Not trying to "bash you" just giving you another point of view. You owe it to yourself to explore all of the options. Your schedule will lighten up, and you can take a lot of the load off of your shoulders. Myron Stutes X class racer and IHRA record holder.

[Chris "drooze" Wertman]

Originally Posted by MYRONARL1119

Chris, As a "class racer in remission" I would like to ad my thought as to another avenue that I think might well be worth considering. Having gone thru the same thing that most stock and super stock racer have at 1 time in their racing career,engine failure, I would like to suggest this option to you. Please consider finding a very good local or regional engine builder that has the means and knowledge to build your power. I think that if you are under a time limitation, you must consider buying your power. At least consider buying 1 good "bullet", and if nothing else, try to duplicate it. Talk to a good engine builder for his input. You have several in the area that can either help you or advise you where to find power. I would suggest talking to someone like Gary Russell, Joey Wilkes,and even consider buying a good "bullet" from one of the players like Johns, Duel, Tueton. Or consider Mopar power builder out of state , even if it is on the "left coast". You need to explore your options..Just because you can build a 15,000 rpm motorcycle engine doesn't mean that this is your cup of tea. Outsourcing power is not a bad think, if it were guys like Woodro Josey and bulders of that caliber won't have been building for years. Also if you can buy at least 1 good motor, you would then have a spare if you must continue down the path you are on. Someone once told me, just pile your money on the kitchen floor and light it, then you'll still have your free think. I don't claim to be an engine builder, just having owned and raced stock classes since 1966 of and on. Not trying to "bash you" just giving you another point of view. You owe it to yourself to explore all of the options. Your schedule will lighten up, and you can take a lot of the load off of your shoulders. Myron Stutes X class racer and IHRA record holder.

No bashing thought, a very good clear point , so clear and so good, that well.....we were already on that, we had 3 more motors slated for this year. 2 5.7's and 1 more 6.1.

A "phased" approach as it were, each with better components as they came available, the first 2 motors bottoms were "as delivered" from Ma Mopar....that didnt work so well This one, well its my "stab" at it, I am under no illusions it will be good or even survive. It is what I want to try however, that is part of the whole adventure for us.

We have gathered 85% of the parts for the 3 motors, now the first will go together, the second the old man wants his "stab" at, we him and I are and always have been in a good and friendly (obviously) competiton with each other....it is one of the things that drives us personally the inside competition. We chose to do the 5.7's because we had 2 new ones sitting here for this project for almost 2 years collecting dust we paid nothing for (actually when we sold the FI equipment etc off them they have paid us) So...it is a low dollar venture, the rods and I got better pricing as a dealer now, well....they are the single most expensive item the total bottom end cost will be around 4k now, parts, labor, etc.

We have talked with several of the builders, Indy, (and duell himself and considered buying his "old" motor from Indy) as well as a few of the others like Irvs builder and some others. That is "underway" but what we would "like" to do is .... well heres how it plays out.

Most are running the 6.1 now.....it will get factored up and we cant compete directly with Duell or Johns at the moment , we knew that all along and as many many posts here will say planned to go with the 5.7 after Gainesville. That was why.

Here is the reason and "Zeeee Plan before Zee Germans get here"

But well be the first to the track with the 5.7 , anything and everything we learn specific to it, well well apply to the second 5.7 as well as some "new" ideas , if our baseline moly and ceramic coatings worked, then well add some DLC's and others, if not then well adjust our plan on the second 5.7

Meantime We will be playing "ahead" of the established curve on the 5.7, different header configs I had made (a 3 step instead of the 2 that Johns and Duell and others are running) Soooo.....F-B? Will be our playgound while they are smacking at each other in AA and A......

Plus as others learn and share on the chassis/converter/rear and other combos and share with us and we with them....well, the rest of the car will move forward as well...

When we have learned as much as we can about the combo as whole....

Well take what we learned works, what dosent, and have a builder do a 6.1 for us, the third and final for the year. At that point, well its gonna be dicey and tight in AA with these, and I wholly expect that the car will be AA only by then, but with what we learned at relativly low dollar investment in the 5.7's we will get the 6.1 "bullet" and Im also under no illusion that especially by then that will be what is needed with a 6.1, also by then, the 5.7's that will be hitting the track will be playing in OUR field, a field that we have already been in and pissed on as it were.

They will be in some ways playing our game and catchup with us, not us with them.

That is "Zee Plan" , I dont know if its a good plan or not, but right now and all along it has been our plan, only time will tell.

You didnt bash in any way....and youre idea is so good.....its part of "Zee Plan"

[CrateCamaro]

Super Stock GT with a 426 Hemi if its legal. Problem solved. Or start measuring for one of those oil retention diapers.

[Ed Wright]

I keep seeing coments about Scat rods. There is nothing wrong with them. I have used them for years, they came with ARP 2000 bolts. Never had to re-size one or correct the balance on a new one right out of the box. Never one single failure. Machining has always been dead nuts. I can't say that for Eagle and some others. Putting Manley rods in that one sure isn't going to cure anything. Valve to piston contact had nothing to do with that failure, nor did the rods.