Lookin for NHRA Stock Class ET/MPH from 1970-71

[ss wannabee]

Can somebody post the 1970 Indy Stock stick shift class winners if they have them?
Thanks!!!

[DeuceCoupe]

Originally Posted by ss wannabee

Can somebody post the 1970 Indy Stock stick shift class winners if they have them?
Thanks!!!

I don't have the sheet but if Rich B (or somebody) can PM and email it to me I can post it. I am also looking for 1971 NHRA events & records.


Anyhow, for 1970 Indy I got these from Boyce's Junior Stock book, which is awesome by the way.


E/S Charbonneau, 67 Fairlane Wagon 427/410
F/S Ogles Z28
H/S Marks, Olds
K/S Mathews&Bender 69 Chevelle LM1 350/255 (held record 12.68 at 107.1 as of late 1970, not sure if this et/mph from indy or not!)
L/S Cieri 66 Nova 283/220 13.19 at 102.5
M/S Hughes 57 Chev
N/S Ronca 56 Chev 2d sedan 13.21
P/S Bennett/Swoope 57 Chev 4d 210 9p-Wagon 283/220
Q/S Westberg&Westfall 55 Chev
V/S Mullins 53 Olds

That's all the detail it gives, a start anyway.

[bill dedman]

Deuce Coupe;

I applaud your determination to attempt to describe, in detail, the scenario that was Stock Eliminator (and, Super Stock,) for that period. It is fraught with a frustrating array of changes, both logical and illogical, and getting all the many, many, details right, will be a monumental challenge! I can't imagine how many hours of painstaking researech it will take to get, even a "mostly-right" accounting of what went on, for several reasons. Not the least of which will be that the time-frame is thirty-forty years ago...

Good luck with that! It needs to be done, and I'm just glad you seem "up-to-the-task."


Many past and present racers will be in your debt when you finish it, They'll appreciate it, for sure.

There was one phenomenon during that time peiod that was unique to the era that some present-day racers may be unaware of, and that was the advent (in about 1964) and eventual demise, entirely, of a unique style of race car that changed the face of drag racing for a few years: The Hydramatic-equipped, 1955-1960 Chevy sedan delivery.

In about 1970, they were eventually legislated out of existence because the factory never ever offered that transmission in the passenger- car-based "sedan delivery." They had Powerglides and (maybe) Turboglides, but, never a Hydramatic.

There are many stories relative to how they got "legal-status" in the first place, the most believeable being, that since they were licenced (in California) as a TRUCK, they could use a truck transmission.
Chevy pickups sometimes were factory-equipped wih 4-speed Hydramatics.

In late '64 or maybe, early '65, a racing team named "Anglin-Clark-VanDill," running out of Washington state, set a new National Record in H/SA (I THINK) with the first one I was ever aware of. Of course, I had to have one, so I immediately built my own, a 220hp '57. By the time I got mine, "operational," several more had shown up in National Dragster and Drag News... all of a sudden, they were coming out of the woodwork!

What made them so appealing was, they had 4-speeds, not two like a Powerglide and the Powerglides of the day had NO hi-stall converters available.. so, the little 283's loved that Hydro! It had a 3.87 (or later,) a 4.10 first gear. Added to that, was that the liberal rules of the day determined that ANY engine (horsepower) could be run with this drivetrain, so, you could build a 270 (twin 4-bbl) or a 283 horsepower, fuel injected sedan delivery and run the appropriate Stock class. Then, there was the advantage that the sedan deliveries were available (and, "legal") for six years, 1955-through 1960, so the combinations were endless...
I remember that at one point, it seemed that EVERY "automatic" Stock class record that they were legal for (something like E-Stock automatic down through N Stock automatic) was held by some form, or combination, of Hydro/sedan delvery. At least, that's the way I remember it... They were everywhere!

Then, in about 1971, NHRA came out with a proclamation banning the use of that transmission in sedan deliveries, altogether. As quickly as they had appeared, they were gone.

The ironic timing of this announcement is, that the development of high-stall and smaller-diameter torque converters was imminent and may have even been concurrent with the ban on Hydros, so I would imagine, the hurt was short-lived.... a good, high-stall Powerglide might have even been quicker than the Hydro by then.
Maybe someone on here took a Hydro out and replaced it with a properly-equipped Powerglide back then and can fill us in on the comparison.

Anyway, this is a period of time (1965-1970) that needs to be explained... in detail.

Thanks for all you do!

[DeuceCoupe]

Bill,
thanks for the encouragement!
I never worked on the old Hydramatic, even though we lived only 2 miles from the Hydramatic Plant site - after the fire.


I used to think of it as a useless old obsolete dog of a trans, before I learned more. Now I realize, it was really just cost that drove it to be obsolete. Wiki has what I think is a good writeup:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydramatic


Between Wiki, pgs 59-62, pg 74-75, and pg86 (on the later dump&fill Hydramatic) of Boyce;s Junior Stock, and your comments, I cant add much to the theory or history.


What I can do is Gonkulate the cars, run the numbers, see what made the ET/MPH jive.


Just to be sure, ALL the sedan deliveries had to run the older (pre-1956) Hydramatic, and NOT the newer Super Dump&Fill version, right?


(Wiki jives with this as they say the old Hydramatic continued on til 1962 as the truck/commercial version, while the new dump&fill was big-car only, especially after 1961 when the Roto / SlimJim appeared).


ASIDE / ALL:
Ok I found one ET/MPH for the 429scj, from Larry Davis "Quarter Mile Muscle" (I don't think he is a Ford guy, he gets a lot of stuff mixed up but book looks great) -
12.70 at 109.5mph, E/SA, 70 Cyclone 429scj, c6/auto.


Well at least that's one.
A long way from the LS6 time of
11.49 at 121mph, B/S or C/S, same year. 3634/450=8.08, C/S=8.00 but the text & pic, pg138 Boyce, says B/S. Hmmm. Factored already?


Still NOTHING on the Buick Stage 1 (any year), Chev LS5, Olds 442 non-W30, or Pontiac 455. Any info appreciated, I will keep hunting.

[Rich Biebel]

The National record for I/SA in 1966 was 14.78 and it was set at Half Moon Bay on the west coast IIRC. John Barkley, I think it was....'57 Chevy with a P/G. I assume he had some converters not readily available even back then. I don't know that for a fact but he was teamed up with Marv Ripes on some cars and it would make sense. Half Moon Bay was said to be a very fast track....like many here in the east....

Most P/G cars did not run as fast as the hydro equipped SD's...and once people saw the hydros run many were built to take advantage of that loophole..

My friend and I assembled a '57 Sedan Delivery with a 283/220 and a hydro. It was a project someone else started. We got it and put it together....We raced it locally mostly.....but did go to Indy that year.

I think we ran a best of around 14.80 in 1966 or just into the 14.70's....

I used to joke to my friend who mostly drove that car....If you lose to a P/G car don't come back....!

We built another car in 1969-1970 and at first planned on racing it with an automatic trans. We did not realize at the time only a P/G was legal and rather than run it with the lowly P/G we ran it with a manual trans....

By 1970 P/G converters were good enough that a 2 speed could run as fast as a 3 speed......

I always regretted NOT racing what we built with one. I would have spent a lot less time trying to fix things I think....

[bill dedman]

Rich, thanks for that information. I don't have any hard numbers for a comparison, but it was the general concensus that the "new" dump-and-fill transmission, though the ratios were slightly better, was NOT bas fast as trhe "old" hydro.

Out there, somewhere, there's got to be somebody who ran a hydro and replaced it with a Powerglide after the converters had some devellopmental time... and might have been even faster than the hydro... I'd love to hear from someone who'd done that...

Here's a pic of mine in 1967, along with partner Harry Sparks...

I discovered just now (11:48 p.m. 6/24/2016) that I had inadvertently, left out the word NOT, which changed the meaning of my statement, entirely. I fixed it.... SORRY!!!

[Dick Butler]

Guys, I am trying to send photos of my conversion of John Dianna's Delivery to my 150 2dr. wagon I ran against Barkley for class at the 1970 us nationals. I used a pg with the same 2 x 4 motor John used. I did not change rear end or anything as I was a first time racer. I admit I drove off idle and never tried to stall it or changed converters.
I did buy bigger adjustable stahl headers and picked up a couple. George Supinski and then others ran it at 13.60s in florida at the Gators.... Try for his details from 1970 or 71. Val Hedworth was fast with a wagon also.

[bill dedman]

Dick, thanks for the information! That was a 1966. right?

[Dick Butler]

56

[bill dedman]

Gick; I meant '56, of course. Thanks for that.