Flat tappet lifter failure

[Alan Roehrich]

Originally Posted by Barry Polley

In listening I also heard the oil additives we are buying for extended wear capability is not even close to what the oil chemists used in the oil we are using. My guess is regulations won’t allow it.

True. Oil is not what it used to be.





This isn't directed at Barry, but rather just general information that racers really need to know.


Way too many people are trying to play "home chemist" by "brewing up" their own additive packages. It simply doesn't work. There's only so much of any additive that will even stay in suspension. Excess moly-disulfide and ZDDP not only won't even stay in suspension, but they will clog your oil filter, they will accumulate in the bottom of your oil pan and restrict the pick up, and worse still, they'll actually cause the damage you're trying to prevent. Beyond a certain concentration, ZDDP and moly-disulfide will literally cause flat tappet failure.


If you're dealing with these problems, and you want to know what's actually going on, for oil, seek a real tribologist, like Lake Speed Jr.


People also need to understand that certain base materials are not an ideal mix. You can't just buy a camshaft and assume you can by just any lifter and they'll work together.And certain coatings are far more dangerous than they are helpful.


I refuse to use DLC, for the simple reason that you cannot trust it. Not ever DLC will work on any camshaft. No DLC will run against cast iron. Not just anly DLC will adhere to every material. And you can't assume any DLC will work with any oil, some have severe reactions to certain base oils and additive packages. Some companies applying DLC are not necessarily that trustworthy either. They want to sell you their coating. But they don't all necessarily want to make sure that everything you have will work together.



Believe it or not, the old Shubeck lifter, properly cared for, is far less hazardous to your engine than many DLC coated lifters. The problem is, we can't find anyone interested in manufacturing them.


There are certain surface treatments we are looking at. But it's a delicate balance. You have to maintain a surface that will create and sustain an oil film, or it will never survive. And you have to spin the lifter.

[Barry Polley]

Quote AR;


This isn't directed at Barry, but rather just general information that racers really need to know.

I’ve got big shoulders! Let ‘er rip. I won’t cry I promise! 😢

[Alan Roehrich]

Originally Posted by Barry Polley

Quote AR;


This isn't directed at Barry, but rather just general information that racers really need to know.

I’ve got big shoulders! Let ‘er rip. I won’t cry I promise! 😢

ROFLMAO!!!!


Yeah, well, you and I talk about this stuff damned near every day. So I'm not posting anything here that you and I haven't discussed at length.



But you brought up a great point, and when I was talking to Lake recently, he absolutely went off on the oil and additives issue.


Also, I saw a video that David Vizard did on the subject. Now, he was also selling Oil Extreme, a calcium carbonate based additive. But he had some pictures of failures induced by excess ZDDP. Does Oil Extreme work? I don't know.



People are buying oils, good oils, like the Brad Penn, and then dumping 1-3 different additive with ZDDP into it. And then wondering why they have failures.


You also brought up a great point about rollers vs. flat tappet. Few people understand that in certain areas, flat tappets actually out accelerate roller lifters. And even fewer understand what that does to performance.

[Terry Cain]

95 percent of the time it's bracket racing. Even more so now that we don't race class. If the rule were to change no one is forcing anyone to change. If a guy thinks what he has is the best or "good enough" so be it. Since I started this post I have received a bunch of email from guys who have had failures. This is suppose to be the entree level class. Guys aren't going to continue spending money of voodoo oils, etc, etc. to race for $1500 (or I'm not). I'll put a roller in, run pump gas, and run the NMCA races.

[Alan Roehrich]

I have been involved in Stock since 1982, in one capacity or another, as an transmission builder, crew chief, engine builder, and driver.


It hasn't been "entry level" since before I became involved. Trick ring packages, trick cams, 8" torque converters, trick clutches, expensive aluminum drums, special gear sets, expensive custom headers, expensive custom camshafts..... None of that is "entry level". All of that has been in Stock for more than 40 years.



It's not "bracket racing", considering you have to make the car run under the index or under, simply to be able to go rounds. Never mind heads up races, which still do happen. And class will still be contested at Indy, at some LODRS races, and some opens.


Any rule change that changes an engine component affects every racer in the class, and forces them to adapt to remain competitive. It also affects everything else in the engine. An engine is not a collection of parts, it's a developed system. At least it is if it runs for very long, and makes competitive HP.


If you have a decent understanding of camshafts, lifters, lobe design, and valvetrain, you know that everything about the lifter is critical, and everything about it affects lobe design, reliability, and power.

[Billy Nees]

Originally Posted by Terry Cain

This is suppose to be the entree level class.

Yer kiddin' right?

[Terry Cain]

Originally Posted by Alan Roehrich

I have been involved in Stock since 1982, in one capacity or another, as an transmission builder, crew chief, engine builder, and driver.


It hasn't been "entry level" since before I became involved. Trick ring packages, trick cams, 8" torque converters, trick clutches, expensive aluminum drums, special gear sets, expensive custom headers, expensive custom camshafts..... None of that is "entry level". All of that has been in Stock for more than 40 years.



It's not "bracket racing", considering you have to make the car run under the index or under, simply to be able to go rounds. Never mind heads up races, which still do happen. And class will still be contested at Indy, at some LODRS races, and some opens.


Any rule change that changes an engine component affects every racer in the class, and forces them to adapt to remain competitive. It also affects everything else in the engine. An engine is not a collection of parts, it's a developed system. At least it is if it runs for very long, and makes competitive HP.


If you have a decent understanding of camshafts, lifters, lobe design, and valvetrain, you know that everything about the lifter is critical, and everything about it affects lobe design, reliability, and power.

Yep, First race was 1973. Flat towed. it is entry level. Any rule change does not effect every racer. Example. Roller lifters. 60 percent of cars racing now already have them.
No more from me.

[Alan Roehrich]

LOL, 60% isn't the correct number. The current factors are based on all combinations having the OE type and size lifter. Changing the rule, to allow combinations that do not have an OE roller lifter to run a roller lifter, changes the current balance of the class. That affects every racer.


You continue to be incorrect, and you do not try to learn in order to be correct.


Perhaps that is why no one was able to help you resolve your camshaft failures.

[jcw31]

Dont race stock but watched the epe video and it looked like Harhiem and Godbold both did not jump in and say ya oil thats the problem in fact it seemed they looked the other way. It seems that all cam companys would rather not deal with the problem or look for an answer.
Lake speed has the credentials but I dont see this as just the oils fault alone (personally dont care for him) . It was said maybe the limit has been reached . If a roller would cure this without needing million dollar springs/ billet cores / $1000 lifters without affecting perf. adding longevity and in the long run saving tons of $.
I know guys already have the flat tappet setups but they dont last forever either so after they wear out or break stay or change .If the lift rule stays its been said a roller has no perf advantage. I dont know it just seems no one has the answer. Sorry for the rant.

[Barry Polley]

Most certainly not just an oil issue I agree. Metal is not what it once was nor are the coatings involved..