What's wrong with Stock?

[Rory McNeil]

I`m curious as to why the factorys didn`t promote their actual production line cars, like the Mustang GT/Boss 302/Shelby, Chevys SS/Z28/ZL1 Camaros, and the various MoPar Challengers.
Factory HP ratings too high?
Not enough exotic/trick factory pieces?
Lack of OE offered Powerglides and Ford 9" rearends?
Factory shipping weights too high?
I always thought much of the challenge of Stock was making the best of the obstacles the compromised factory parts that you had to work with.
It would appear that the "Big 3" have avoided any such nusiances, by creating a bunch of purpose built, max effort race cars, using a blank sheet of paper to eliminate having to deal with any pesky OE production compromise designs. And then by making minor spec tweaks each year, they assure themselves of always having another under rated combination in the wings. Nice. Kinda like a NFL Pro football team beating up on a high school team. . And having somebody come on here to talk about how much time and effort hey have spent to make their new 2014 factory race car competetive against a guy who has been thrashing on his "nostalgia" combo for 20,30, or more years, in a slap in the face.

[Greg Hill]

Originally Posted by RJ Sledge

Greg

Very good original post Greg.

We all seem to agree that the problem is about "Bogus" hp ratings on the New Cars, Factory Influence (spelled $$$$), lack of enforcement of Stock rules for F/S cars and NHRA not following their own rules, etc.

So what can be done to persuade NHRA to do anything different?? I like the idea of not contributing to their bottom line and staying away from the National Events, but I don't see that happening. Just look at how many attended INDY knowing they had no chance of making the Eliminator, but its their money and time and they chose to go and had a good time.

Who speaks for the majority of us? Who could/would talk to NHRA? Most important is who would listen at NHRA??

Trying to get all the Stock Racers to agree is like trying to herd a bunch of cats, slim chance of that happening.

RJ

RJ, thanks for the compliment. I didn't start this thread to start a fight between the new car guys and the old car guys, I thought we might have some constructive conversation about how to fix the problem. I realize NHRA is probably going to do nothing so I figured if we could star a conversation about how both groups could benefit and maybe it would find its way to NHRA. For the people who don't think there is a problem you are just not paying attention. This is not good for stock eliminator. To advantage one group to the detriment of another group is eventually going to cause the group that is dumped on to do something different. For all you guys with new cars, you desperately need the old cars to hang around, because without them there will be no stock as we know it. There may be something else called stock and you may get enough cars at Indy for a 64 car field, but for most of the other races during the year you won't have enough cars for a 16 car field.

Instead of arguing and calling each other names let's agree that both old and new are important to drag racing and try and figure out how to get more participation from both groups. You could put the new cars in there own classes in stock. When the fuel injected cars had there own classes it brought a lot of the old cars back and worked fine until there horsepower ratings got where they needed to be. The Factory stock class cars don't need to be in stock eliminator if they are not going to follow the same rules. They should have their own eliminator. The complete absence of proper factoring of these new cars has led in large part to the problem of what's going on now and that's no different than what happened when the LT1's and LS1's came out. Both of those combinations have earned themselves around 70 hp. Until the new cars earn themselves the appropriate hp rating they need to be in their own classes.

[Pedigo Perf]

Originally Posted by Charley Downing

And the new cars dead horse keeps get beat. The problem is not new the cars or there bogus HP ratings. The problem is you guys don’t like the new style of SS/STK racers with large amounts disposable income. All you old time 70’s, 80’s and 90’s racers are mad because $125,000 buys your way to the top.

$125k spent on a new COPO will get you a great view of Patterson's tail lights.

[zracer305]

Originally Posted by RJ Sledge

Greg

Very good original post Greg.

We all seem to agree that the problem is about "Bogus" hp ratings on the New Cars, Factory Influence (spelled $$$$), lack of enforcement of Stock rules for F/S cars and NHRA not following their own rules, etc.

So what can be done to persuade NHRA to do anything different?? I like the idea of not contributing to their bottom line and staying away from the National Events, but I don't see that happening. Just look at how many attended INDY knowing they had no chance of making the Eliminator, but its their money and time and they chose to go and had a good time.

Who speaks for the majority of us? Who could/would talk to NHRA? Most important is who would listen at NHRA??

Trying to get all the Stock Racers to agree is like trying to herd a bunch of cats, slim chance of that happening.

RJ

Boycott the next nationals!!!

[Bob Mulry]

Hi Guys & Gals,

This is my last post on this thread........

NHRA in its bipolar wisdom has, in the past, repaired an error of the same magnitude....

GM came out with the, street legal, in the Classification Guide, FI cars with the obscene low HP ratings to race the lower classes...

NHRA said that the AHFS would fix it. It didn't because they didn't have to go fast to race and they had a very large HP cushion to lean on...

NHRA, it's hard to believe, made the correct decision to put all of the FI cars in their own set of classes. When that happened it forced them to run their cars harder and take the AHFS hits.

After they beat each other up and had realistic HP ratings, NHRA removed the FI classes and put them back into the original class structure that they started in.

Those cars now raced in the appropriate classes..

But being bipolar, NHRA, can't look back and see how to fix this problem because they are blinded by money...

I don't care what they call the new Factory FX cars...

Maybe AFX/SA & AFX/S, BFX/SA & BFX/S, etc and have them race heads up, with the same exact rules for that ALL of the other cars that race Stock Eliminator race under until the HP numbers make sense...

This worked in the past, why not now??????????

Good luck,
Bob

[Jack McCarthy]

as one of the 17 cars under HP review today...i cannot state how pis#$%^d off i am about the 27 cars without review because they are "SPECIAL"....

well i was the oldest stocker to win class, fastest VIN car without a HP debacle in the last 3-4 years... so im under review...

lousy #31 on the sheet > gee thanks NHRA
i am sure glad roy WANTED to be part of the 60th Big Fiasco.

seeyall in columbus about -.54 under

captain jack

i did get to beat that mustang II >> HeHe !!!

[FS Fan]

I'm a long time lurker on here and I've seen this pop up many times.

I see a number of questions that I don't think anyone is asking.

Without the package cars how could a late model car ever be competitive? An older engine combination can make big gains within the Stock rules, but a new engine is WAY more optimized for performance as delivered. A new street legal showroom engine combo can never hope to get 1.70 times the rated hp from the showroom to be near the top of a qualifying sheet.

If NHRA decided the new cars had to be factory street legal combos what if they put all the old cars out to pasture? Stock used to be only back to 1960 and I believe that came about in 1972. If they decided that Stock Eliminator was only back to 2002 would that be ok with your sense as to the spirit of the class? One could argue that when that rule was in place it was the heyday of Stock racing. I see many posts about how great those days where, and the cars they were racing were actually fairly new. I can't think of any other motorsport where you could win a "world" championship with 40 year old technology. I can go to a dealer and order a new GM DR head from the performance parts catalog, I cannot order a 369 big block anything. If the factory doesn't support it any longer should it be relevant?

Do you care if the factories are involved? Factories get involved when its marketable. I see a bunch of dealers sponsoring new cars, I don't see them sponsoring older cars so much. If the dealers don't care I wouldn't expect the factories to care. I don't see how racers can have it both ways asking for factory help and contingency money but not running what they actually sell. A window manufacturer wouldn't continue to help someone who bought windows 40 years ago.

Regarding the disparity in MPH between cars what if NHRA decided to put slow cars out rather than move fast cars to Super Stock? The new Dodge Hellcat went 10.80's on sticky tires with an IRS. As a solid axle stocker that could easily be a 9-second car (of course there is no weight break for it currently but we're talking theoretically). I bet a new Camaro V6 can run 13's in total street trim, maybe 11's as a Stocker. It is the National HOTROD Association, and if the slowest modern version of a hot rod can run 11's modified to race is that the new bar?

Is it important to bring new and/or young people into the sport? Is everyone ok with the same people racing the same cars for the foreseeable future? A 16 year old kid who might get bit by the racing bug has only seen LS based Chevies, Modular Fords, and Gen 3 Hemi's. These are the powerplants that are easily available in junkyards and have parts readily available. If the spirit of the class is to be able to build a fast, inexpensive car, with parts that you can get at a dealership then I think a new Mustang is about as cheap as you can get.

Interesting facts:.
2008 Indy qualifying (before the package cars) top ten average model year:1976, on average they were 32 years old! Almost all had carburetors despite the fact there hadn't been a carburated car sold new in the US since 1985 (23 years prior).

2008 qualfying for 1960 Kingswood
#49, U/SA John McCarthy Jr., Lyndon KY, '60 Kingswood 14.073, -1.077

2014 qualifying for 1960 Kingswood
#31 U/SA Roy Dean, Bloomville OH, '60 Kingswood 13.756, -1.094

I like the new cars but I see why there is angst about them. Nothing is perfect. To me it looks like years of not doing anything to keep the classes growing & relevant has resulted in big changes quickly which upsets the norm.

[Jim Bailey]

Bob, that would be too much like IHRA. They've already copied IHRA qualifying system. They borrowed Pro-Mod from IHRA and added IHRA's Top Dragster. To turn back the clock and fix Stock might be a little too tuff on egos, knowing that IHRA had enough foresight to leave the carb and injected cars separate...... But then again NHRA's got Pro Stock Snowmobles. - Just saying!

[X-TECH MAN]

Originally Posted by zracer305

Boycott the next nationals!!!

LOL......Yeah right.......... like that will happen !

[Pedigo Perf]

Originally Posted by FS Fan

If NHRA decided the new cars had to be factory street legal combos what if they put all the old cars out to pasture? Stock used to be only back to 1960 and I believe that came about in 1972. If they decided that Stock Eliminator was only back to 2002 would that be ok with your sense as to the spirit of the class? One could argue that when that rule was in place it was the heyday of Stock racing. I see many posts about how great those days where, and the cars they were racing were actually fairly new. I can't think of any other motorsport where you could win a "world" championship with 40 year old technology. I can go to a dealer and order a new GM DR head from the performance parts catalog, I cannot order a 369 big block anything. If the factory doesn't support it any longer should it be relevant?

You have a good point here. However there is a lot of classic muscle car interest in the USA and it still a strong market for restoration parts. Thanks to NHRA approving certain aftermarket parts, you can buy about everything you need to build a classic "old car" if you want to.

For the record I believe the future of Stock Eliminator depends on having the "new cars" racing and I have no problems with that.

Oh well, at least I didn't build a Pro Stock Truck.