Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy

[Mark Yacavone]

Originally Posted by oldskool

Looks like that sorta narrows it down to a Bonnie for a '77 build.

OK, you said the odd ball rear began in '77. The '76 Lemans wagon has the same 116" wb. So does it share the same rear as any of the other '73-'77 models ? 8.5 but wider ? And if so, is there a possibility that the '76 wagon rear may have the big brakes and bolt-in axles you mentioned ?

Probably does. No first hand experience though.

[Tony Corley]

Cut the axle tubes and widen them if that is the car you want to build.

[Dave Noll]

Originally Posted by oldskool

Looks like that sorta narrows it down to a Bonnie for a '77 build.

Do we have another Barge on the way ?

Originally Posted by oldskool

So are you saying that a high 12 or low 13sec footbraker has the power to shear the spider gear pin ?

My Cougar has a 9" in it but I have had a mini spool in it for years. Moser said it would be plenty strong. When I recently changed gears, I got another one from Jegs. It had 4 hole's in it for use with the 4 spider diff's.

[oldskool]

Originally Posted by Tony Corley

Cut the axle tubes and widen them if that is the car you want to build.

I'm not that worried about the width. I don't think they are going to measure the width of the rear at a division race. Who'd care ? But I'd like to find an 8.5 that will bolt right in, which has the factory bolt-in axles. That way, I can just buy a decent posi and gears, then race it. We've never broke a stock axle. But if I break one of these, then I'll buy some better ones.

[HandOverFist]

REAR END
Original rear end may be replaced with another from the same
automobile manufacturer; truck rear end prohibited. Aluminum
center section permitted only on vehicles that were originally
equipped with same." Distance between backing plates may not
be changed." Any gear ratio that fits third-member case or
housing permitted. Limited-slip or ratchet-type rear ends
permitted. Reinforcement of spring perch permitted. Spools
permitted only with aftermarket axles. Aftermarket axles not
required for front-wheel-drive vehicles. Larger brakes may be
used." Replacement rear end may be narrowed or widened to
obtain original rear-end width." Bracing or beefing up the rearend
housing permitted.

[oldskool]

Originally Posted by Dave Noll

Do we have another Barge on the way ?

My Cougar has a 9" in it but I have had a mini spool in it for years. Moser said it would be plenty strong. When I recently changed gears, I got another one from Jegs. It had 4 hole's in it for use with the 4 spider diff's.

In 1977 Pontiac downsized the Cats and Bonnies--only a 116" wb. A 2-door Bonnie only weighs about 125 lbs more than a TA, and about a hundred lbs LESS than a Lemans.

I really can't imagine shearing a pin with a slow footbraker. We made hundreds(or maybe well over a thousand--didn't keep track) of passes with our 455 bracket cars, using mini spools, without braking any part of the rear. But, Tony said he's seen the carrier cracked, when using a mini.

Don't know if your 9" carrier is thicker and less prone to cracking or not.

[oldskool]

Originally Posted by HandOverFist

REAR END
Original rear end may be replaced with another from the same
automobile manufacturer; truck rear end prohibited. Aluminum
center section permitted only on vehicles that were originally
equipped with same." Distance between backing plates may not
be changed." Any gear ratio that fits third-member case or
housing permitted. Limited-slip or ratchet-type rear ends
permitted. Reinforcement of spring perch permitted. Spools
permitted only with aftermarket axles. Aftermarket axles not
required for front-wheel-drive vehicles. Larger brakes may be
used." Replacement rear end may be narrowed or widened to
obtain original rear-end width." Bracing or beefing up the rearend
housing permitted.

Yeah, I read that. So are you saying that you think the tech guys are actually going to measure the rear end at a division 4 race, when I'm just barely running my index ? I can't see a performance advantage, that would make a difference to anybody.

Again, that's just country boy thinkin. I've never raced a Stocker at the division level. But I've recently read that unless you set a National record, there are no tear downs. So, I reason that if no tear downs, certainly they wouldn't care if your rear end was a couple of inches too short. Is that a reasonable assumption ?

[HandOverFist]

Originally Posted by oldskool

Yeah, I read that. So are you saying that you think the tech guys are actually going to measure the rear end at a division 4 race, when I'm just barely running my index ? I can't see a performance advantage, that would make a difference to anybody.

Again, that's just country boy thinkin. I've never raced a Stocker at the division level. But I've recently read that unless you set a National record, there are no tear downs. So, I reason that if no tear downs, certainly they wouldn't care if your rear end was a couple of inches too short. Is that a reasonable assumption ?

That's how it begins oldschool. Nobody is looking so it's ok to run different heads, larger valves, non-approved pistons, higher lift cam...see where this is going?

[oldskool]

Originally Posted by HandOverFist

That's how it begins oldschool. Nobody is looking so it's ok to run different heads, larger valves, non-approved pistons, higher lift cam...see where this is going?

Yeah, I think I understand what you are saying. See if I got it right. You feel that EVERYTHING has got to be absolutely legal, including the exact width of the rear end, even to run at a division level race, or don't even take it to the track.
Is that accurate ?

I have a question for you. I've read about the acid ported heads, and the new process that the top name Stocker head shops use to open up the Stock heads for the high dollar Stock racers. I read that many of the quickest cars use these heads and get by with it. So do you consider these heads illegal, even tho the tech guys pass 'em ?

Do you think it's fair for guys running these heads to win their class at a National event, or set a National record, or win any of the big races ?

Do you think it would be worse for me to run a rear that was a couple of inches too short, in order to save some $, than for these guys to win with modified heads ?

If you were racing at the same race I was, would you protest my car or tell one of the tech guys that my rear end was 2 inches too short, and suggest that they measure it to see ? I personally would not care what rear end you had, or how wide the housing was. It would be fine with me if you wanted to run a 9" Ford or a Dana 60.

Hey, if I understand the rules correctly, except for heads up runs, both Stock and SS now run breakout bracket rules. So what difference does it make how wide your rear end housing is ? You think that might be the reason the tech is a little slack at division level races ?

Which item has a performance advantage ?-- the bogus heads or the shorter rear end housing ? If I go to the expense of having a stock housing lengthened 2 inches, and buying new axles to match, how much slower will I go ?

I

[Tony Corley]

So what I am hearing is that since others cheat, then it's permissable for you too also? I understand what you are saying about it not being much of a performance advantage, but it's still against the rules. Why go into a build with the idea that you are going to start out being illegal?