Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy

[HandOverFist]

Originally Posted by oldskool

Yeah, I think I understand what you are saying. See if I got it right. You feel that EVERYTHING has got to be absolutely legal, including the exact width of the rear end, even to run at a division level race, or don't even take it to the track.
Is that accurate ?

I have a question for you. I've read about the acid ported heads, and the new process that the top name Stocker head shops use to open up the Stock heads for the high dollar Stock racers. I read that many of the quickest cars use these heads and get by with it. So do you consider these heads illegal, even tho the tech guys pass 'em ?

Do you think it's fair for guys running these heads to win their class at a National event, or set a National record, or win any of the big races ?

Do you think it would be worse for me to run a rear that was a couple of inches too short, in order to save some $, than for these guys to win with modified heads ?

If you were racing at the same race I was, would you protest my car or tell one of the tech guys that my rear end was 2 inches too short, and suggest that they measure it to see ? I personally would not care what rear end you had, or how wide the housing was. It would be fine with me if you wanted to run a 9" Ford or a Dana 60.

Hey, if I understand the rules correctly, except for heads up runs, both Stock and SS now run breakout bracket rules. So what difference does it make how wide your rear end housing is ? You think that might be the reason the tech is a little slack at division level races ?

Which item has a performance advantage ?-- the bogus heads or the shorter rear end housing ? If I go to the expense of having a stock housing lengthened 2 inches, and buying new axles to match, how much slower will I go ?

I

If you read between your own questions I believe you will have answered all your inquiries.

Consider this...do you really believe the rule book was written with the premise that one could pick and choose which he/she would need to adhere to? If that were the case then why have rules to begin with?

Take our '67 E/SA Camaro for instance - If you read our journey with the car in my build thread it becomes apparent there is little I don't know about or a part I have not had my hands on despite it being initially a ready to race car. If there were one thing that could be picked out by anyone that was not legal I would just shrug my shoulders and figure it was negligence or ignorance on my part alone. The rule I adhere to before all others is keeping "Class" in Class racing. I can go bracket racing anywhere/anytime.

[Billy Nees]

Originally Posted by oldskool

Yeah, I think I understand what you are saying. See if I got it right. You feel that EVERYTHING has got to be absolutely legal, including the exact width of the rear end, even to run at a division level race, or don't even take it to the track.
Is that accurate ?

I have a question for you. I've read about the acid ported heads, and the new process that the top name Stocker head shops use to open up the Stock heads for the high dollar Stock racers. I read that many of the quickest cars use these heads and get by with it. So do you consider these heads illegal, even tho the tech guys pass 'em ?

Do you think it's fair for guys running these heads to win their class at a National event, or set a National record, or win any of the big races ?

Do you think it would be worse for me to run a rear that was a couple of inches too short, in order to save some $, than for these guys to win with modified heads ?

If you were racing at the same race I was, would you protest my car or tell one of the tech guys that my rear end was 2 inches too short, and suggest that they measure it to see ? I personally would not care what rear end you had, or how wide the housing was. It would be fine with me if you wanted to run a 9" Ford or a Dana 60.

Hey, if I understand the rules correctly, except for heads up runs, both Stock and SS now run breakout bracket rules. So what difference does it make how wide your rear end housing is ? You think that might be the reason the tech is a little slack at division level races ?

Which item has a performance advantage ?-- the bogus heads or the shorter rear end housing ? If I go to the expense of having a stock housing lengthened 2 inches, and buying new axles to match, how much slower will I go ?

I

So after reading THAT!?! I'll ask the question again, "why are we having this conversation"? So that you can go out and fiddledick around and play some games that you can't afford to play and embarrass the people on here who are trying to help you?
And don't give me your shtick about the "oh sorry, I don't understand" crap and ask a hundred more questions.
If you can't afford to play or you can't learn how to play then, DON'T PLAY! Just like in the school yard, it's that simple.
You've had a lot of good people on this thread trying to give you the benefit of their hard earned knowledge to try and help you do something that I'm not sure that you even want to do! For what? So you can show up at a local race with a bogus car and make them all look bad?
Either fish or cut bait, Jack!

[oldskool]

Originally Posted by Tony Corley

Why go into a build with the idea that you are going to start out being illegal?

I reckin it's just a matter of your point of view. Mine is that if a part like the width of a rear end housing is not going to give me an unfair performance advantage over other cars, then what the heck difference does it make, especially since it will only be for maybe one division race per year. It looks to me like you guys are trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill, and calling me a cheater, just because I don't have enuff $$ to spend to buy the exact correct length rear end housing, or have someone modify a stock one for me.

I wish I had plenty of $$ to just buy a perfectly built car that would run a sec under and pass tech at any race. But I don't. I reckin I read too much into that $1000 dime rocket thread. Seems that just a legal rear end will cost way more than $1000 by itself.

I'm just in the planning stages of trying to figure out what year and body style I might could run, and I'm already getting negative feedback from you guys. It seems on the surface that you guys are sort of an exclusive club and you don't really want any more Stockers built.

I had in mind trying to build what I can afford and then working on improving it as I go. Ya'll seem to be saying build it perfect before you even take it to a track, or don't even try. Well, unless I win the lottery, I can't afford to build it perfect, so maybe this was just a bad idea from the very start. Oh well, thinkin about it and planning it was fun for a while. Thanks to all you guys for all the advice. And good luck with your racing season.

[Billy Nees]

Originally Posted by oldskool

I reckin it's just a matter of your point of view. Mine is that if a part like the width of a rear end housing is not going to give me an unfair performance advantage over other cars, then what the heck difference does it make, especially since it will only be for maybe one division race per year. It looks to me like you guys are trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill, and calling me a cheater, just because I don't have enuff $$ to spend to buy the exact correct length rear end housing, or have someone modify a stock one for me.


I'm not making you out to be a cheater, YOU are doing that! There are rules about rearend width for tire clearence issues and suspension geometry.


I wish I had plenty of $$ to just buy a perfectly built car that would run a sec under and pass tech at any race. But I don't. I reckin I read too much into that $1000 dime rocket thread. Seems that just a legal rear end will cost way more than $1000 by itself.


You apparently didn't read enough out of the dime rocket thread! if you can't afford to get what you want to get, then improvise! But that might mean that you're not going to get the bodystyle that you might want or the best parts!


I'm just in the planning stages of trying to figure out what year and body style I might could run, and I'm already getting negative feedback from you guys. It seems on the surface that you guys are sort of an exclusive club and you don't really want any more Stockers built.


We ARE an exclusive club! And if you can't play by the rules or don't want to play by the rules, then don't play!


I had in mind trying to build what I can afford and then working on improving it as I go. Ya'll seem to be saying build it perfect before you even take it to a track, or don't even try. Well, unless I win the lottery, I can't afford to build it perfect, so maybe this was just a bad idea from the very start. Oh well, thinkin about it and planning it was fun for a while. Thanks to all you guys for all the advice. And good luck with your racing season.

You didn't hear ME say that! The first sentence in your last paragraph is the only thing in your post that makes any sense.
I've brought cars home from junkyards, brought them to the track, raced them, found out what I wanted to find out and brought them back to the junkyard.

You want to race a Pontiac? Get a Pontiac! Preferably find a good running , ugly one. Take it to the track and play with it, see what it wants. If you're a Pontiac guru then it will show you something, build on that. Bracket race the wheels off of it. Add to it as you can afford to. When it runs the index, take it to an NHRA event but when you do, BE LEGAL!

[Tony Corley]

So just to clarify. You feel like no one wants you too race because they won't condone the idea of you cheating? Nobody is saying you have to build it perfect, just legal. I would much rather show up legal and slow, than illegal and a second under the index. Build the car you can afford, (and be legal), and work on it over time to make it better, while racing it in the meantime in brackets. That attention to detail that you referred to lacking earlier is exactly what you need to possess to field a competitive stocker on a limited budget. When you can't afford to pay someone to do everything for you, then you have to learn to do it yourself. That is actually the allure of stock. There are no extremely high dollar parts required to be competitive, just lots of attention to detail. As Billy said, a lot of people have been trying to help you in here, because racers want to see others race. But don't slap them in the face by feeling like you have the right to show up at a race with an illegal car, just because you didn't have the funds to spend on it. Racing is expensive, and class racing moreso. The old saying, "Get in where you fit in" applies.

[Dave Gantz]

Depending on the car, a rear that is not stock width could give you an advantage by positioning the wheel mounting surface so that a 9 X 30 slick fits, where it wouldn't with the stock width.
It wouldn't surprise me that someone is running a rear that isn't the right width. Or, one or more of a zillion infractions. I was a partner on a car in the 90's. It was right. My partner (Mike Smith) and I had a respect for the sport and the other racers for it not to be.

The acid heads are NHRA's fault. They published bogus specs (after they knew there were lots of them out there) and everyone built to them. NHRA has given in on many things; today's stocker's are not 1975's, even though the rules haven't changed that much.

If I were NHRA, and I read this thread, I would measure your rear. (Axle!)

[Dion Hildebrandt]

Originally Posted by oldskool

Yeah, I read that. So are you saying that you think the tech guys are actually going to measure the rear end at a division 4 race, when I'm just barely running my index ? I can't see a performance advantage, that would make a difference to anybody.

Again, that's just country boy thinkin. I've never raced a Stocker at the division level. But I've recently read that unless you set a National record, there are no tear downs. So, I reason that if no tear downs, certainly they wouldn't care if your rear end was a couple of inches too short. Is that a reasonable assumption ?

I am weighing in with my first venture with a stocker at a divisional race. I put my car together with a used stocker engine, read and reread the rule book and figured I was ready. Went to the race had issues in tech, had issues at the scales, had issues in staging , had issues on the track. My intention was to go and qualify maybe go a round or two and go home. The reality is I had a car that couldn't run index,I ended up meeting every tech guy on the property, had the car checked as thoroughly as a tear down would be to verify I fit the class claimed, and became known to the racers that didn't know me.

I only bring this up because of your questioning if someone will measure a differential or not. When you are the "new guy on the block" there will be more attention paid than you can imagine. Look up the thread where Toby Lang blasted a competitor for "testing" an illegal carb during qualifying and tell me wrong parts don't matter. Wrong is wrong doesn't matter what $$ state a person is in. I am not a rich man and probably have a car that is not ideal for its class but I run it and run it hard, it took 8 years for the car to come around. Because of the effort I put in my car,If I become aware of a fellow competitor running illegal your damn right I would protest that, the same I would expect to be protested if I was illegal.

my $0.02 take it for what you will.

[Todd Hoven]

I've been following your thread from the begining. More and more I read into it, I question if you are really looking to do this. There are people who just want to talk about it and that's fine.

If you want to build a car, find something that fits your budget and go. If you have a car and it fits a class, it might be best to build that car around the rules. It's easier and cheaper to build an engine then a whole car.

If you have trouble interpreting the rule book and have to ask countless questions about it every day, this deal might not be for you. Maybe try to show up at a track and observe different cars and how they are put together. I'm sure if the rear end housing is slightly off width wise you will be ok. Especially if the car is a 77 Bonniville, who the hell would know that, or come to the race with that info. If you had a Camaro or a Mustang it should be right, and it would be easy to tell by the rim offset and tire placement . As long as the tires fit correctly you should be fine.
I'm not sure you have the right judge what is more or less illegal with other car in the class when you don't and have never raced in it. Either crap or get off the pot, this post of 10 pages of how about and what do you think of this. When you start building a car then start a new one about it.

[Mark Yacavone]

Originally Posted by Todd Hoven

I'm sure if the rear end housing is slightly off width wise you will be ok. Especially if the car is a 77 Bonniville, who the hell would know that, or come to the race with that info. If you had a Camaro or a Mustang it should be right, and it would be easy to tell by the rim offset and tire placement . As long as the tires fit correctly you should be fine.
.

There ya go,Todd

Now everybody here knows about , so we can't do that.
Have to move on to the next idea...
This could go on forever, with no actual racing..
Maybe that's the plan after all....

[Todd Hoven]

That's the plan, to be the center of attention.

Damm! I guess my next build is in the crapper. I was going to build one of those with a shortened rear from an Austrialan Cadiliac in reverse rotation. The 301 combo with an altered firing order to optimize the resonating pulse in the intake. Hope I didn't just let out the secret of this combo. Sorry 😁

Originally Posted by Mark Yacavone

There ya go,Todd

Now everybody here knows about , so we can't do that.
Have to move on to the next idea...
This could go on forever, with no actual racing..
Maybe that's the plan after all....