Project - NHRA Stock and S/S results 61-68

[Rat Patrol]

Originally Posted by oldskool

"...In the Pontiac stocker thread, you quote Boyce’s book ( I won’t judge��) as saying this car was totalled in a wreck after coming runner up at Indy in class...it couldn't possibly have run in SS/S in 62 competitively."

Just went back & looked in the book. It's on page 14. Says Stan Antlocer drove it, & was RU in "Super Stock", NOT SS/S.

Can't verify anything, EXCEPT that this is what is in the Jr. Stock book, on page 14.

The SS book says that Bob Harrop was driving the '61 Pontiac that was S/S RU @ Indy '62. I wasn't there. Don't know who was RU.

To save a lot of ‘to and fro’.....check the results I have fot 62...then give me your educated opinion on where Antlocer fits.

I am genuinely interested because r/up info is so hard to source. 👍

https://skunkwerkssuperstock.wordpre...s-experiments/

[oldskool]

Originally Posted by Rat Patrol

To save a lot of ‘to and fro’.....check the results I have fot 62...then give me your educated opinion on where Antlocer fits.

I am genuinely interested because r/up info is so hard to source. ��

https://skunkwerkssuperstock.wordpre...s-experiments/

One thing I noticed in the Jr. Stock book is that at the end of the caption are the words (Photo Courtesy Stan Antlocer)

SO, does that mean that the author of the book was in contact with Stan, & got the pic & info he published directly from Stan ???

If this is the case, & Stan knew that the info he provided might be published in a book & credited to him, would he intentionally provided false info, which he knew could be proven false ???

OR, did the book's author get the facts wrong, NOT publishing exactly what Stan provided to him ???

I don't know the answer to these questions. I don't know who won the race or who the RU was or what car either driver was driving.

Hey, I live in Louisiana & have never even been close to Indy, much less attended a race there. I just read what others have written about races & repost some of it on a few car forums. If the results I read were posted wrong, then the results I repost will also be wrong.

Have run across quite a bit of conflicting info about race results from 50 years or more ago, as well as races from the modern era.

I've posted that Pontiacs won races, when it turned out that the driver who won the race HAD driven Pontiacs at some previous races, BUT was NOT driving a Pontiac at the particular race I was reporting on. Sometimes only the names are posted, with no mention of what car was being driven.

After scanning down thru your 1962 section, I noticed that you said Hayden Proffitt won Top Stock at Indy, in a 421 Pontiac.

"...These 421 cui motors ran 11:1, dual quad carburretors and were rated to 405. The lightweight panels were available to the approved teams and raced in SS/S. Hayden Proffitt proved the cars worth by winning Top Stock at the US Nationals..."

According to other info posted, he actually won the SS/S class @ the '62 Winter nats, with that #670 Pontiac. He did win Top Stock @ Indy that year, but he was driving the #612 409 powered Chevy. At least, that's what I can gather from all the results I've seen.

This article lists Arlen Vanke a S/S winner. But then, as a caption to a pic, says Bill Sasse won S/S. Have a pic of a car with "Bill Sasse" on the door & "Driver Arlen Vanke" on the roof, over the door. So, IF this was the winning car, who was driving at the '62 Indy Nats ?

http://wildaboutcarsonline.com/membe...onals_1-20.pdf

[oldskool]

I contacted the Jr. Stock book author & ask him about what Stan told him.

He sent me a copy. Stan said the car was RU in Super Stock at the "Indianapolis Summer Nationals in 1962".

So, was that the same race as the NHRA Nationals of '62 ? Or was it some special race they held earlier in the Summer ?

Never heard of a Summer Nationals race being held @ Indy. Maybe Stan just used the word Summer because the race started in Aug ?

I don't have any answers & don't know who was driving the S/S winning or RU car @ Indy '62.

[DeuceCoupe]

Originally Posted by Rat Patrol

DC - You wanted this.

Thanks!
I just saw this today Oct 29, for some reason my Email notifications quit.

[DeuceCoupe]

Originally Posted by Rat Patrol

1969 now published. Thank you both for your help.

https://skunkwerkssuperstock.wordpress.com/1969-2/

Awesome!
A couple things I caught:
FACTORING:
The 428/335hp-CJ R-code RamAir was factored to 360hp
The 428/335hp-CJ Q-code NonRamAir was factored to 340hp

I'm not sure on the AMX factoring, I had 400hp, not sure if 420hp fits the class or not. Curious where you found that?

WINTER:
You have Harvey's SS?/I car at 340hp, which is the correct factor, but most places you list the factory rated hp, not NHRA factored.

SPRING:
Re SS/Eliminator SS/GA Poole, there were NO 428-2x4v Cobra Jets. All single 4v. The SS/GA Cobra Jets were R-code ram air factored at 360hp.

The B/SA=8.00 Ben Wolf car:
Bottom line is I dont know WHAT that car was.
No 68-69 Pontiac fits B/SA=8.00 class unless the engine was factored way above its factory rating.
The only factoring I've heard on the 400 Pontiacs is that:
* ALMOST always, the FIrebirds were refactored to the GTO rating
* The RA4 was factored to 380hp, at least in 1970-71. I've always assumed that was true for 1969 as well.
* The RA2 had to be factored to about 375hp in 1970-71 for eg the Truman Fields car to run where it did, D/S=8.50 class in 1971.

Is it POSSIBLE that the RA4 was factored to at least 395hp, maybe 410-425hp, to allow the FIrebird or GTO to fit the Ben Wolf B/SA=8.00 win?
Sure, but I have no direct evidence this happened. That nmeant the RA4 got factored DOWN to 380hp in 1970, and down-factoring was rare but not unheard of.

So, we just dont know.
A 69 Firebird has to be factored to at least 395hp to fit B/SA=8.00.
A 69 GTO has to be factored to at least 415hp to fit B/SA=8.00.
Maybe the Ben Wolf car wasnt even a Pontiac? Do we know?

The F/SA=10.00 Dick Simon car, again I still dont know WHAT it was. His Fairlane ragtop doesnt fit that class with any engine. Coulda been a Fairlane but not the ragtop.

INDY:
I like seeing that big Pontiac win with the 421-6v under there. Not a usual combo you see winning at a National event.

The picture of the Roush 69 Mustang Ragtop 1511 SS/HA=9.50 is at the 71 Nationals, not the 69 Nationals. In 1969, SS/HA=9.00 class and the ragtop was too heavy for that class.

Allie would have run a 69 Fastback or Coupe in 1969=SS/HA=9.00 class, not sure which one either fits.

They used to play with the class letters almost every year back then, super confusing.

FOMOCO:
The big (3600 lb shipping wt, over 3800 lb on the street) Fastback Cobra/Cyclone indeed won several in SS/J=10.00 and SS/JA=10.00 classes. I have
Winter
Payne SS/J
Caster SS/JA
Spring
Payne SS/J
Glidden SS/JA
Indy
Johnson SS/JA Cyclone

The only time that combo did NOT win was SS/J at Indy, won by a little cussball Chevy II 327/275hp. Those cars are so light they're known to pop the windshields out if the car hooks up with the stock unibody.

CHEVY:
The ZL1 NHRA weight is 3124 lb not 2800 lb.
The L79 66 Nova came in at 2800 lb though.

PONTIAC:
The Max Sterling picture is not a 62 Cat 421/405sd.
I think that picture in your writeup is a 61, maybe his previous car?
Here is a picture from Petersen of Max's *62* White Lightning car

https://archive.petersen.org/pages/p...php?ref=316653

Confusing because both cars are #1310.
Glad we have oldskool here because all this Pontiac stuff is very confusing, still.

MOPAR:
AFAIK the Street Hemi was always factored to 480hp, 1966-71.

All in all a superbly enjoyable writeup.
Great service to history.

EDIT: I did this post 29 October, but did some edits on 30 October, just put them in here to keep it all in 1 spot. Still catching up on pgs 11-15 of the thread!

[oldskool]

"...1969 now published. Thank you both for your help..."

I noticed just a couple of things about the Pontiac info, which are very minor.

(1) About the Ben Wolf car, which we decided, if it was indeed a Pontiac, had to be either a '68 or '69 Bird, with RA2 or RA4 engine: Since you decided on a '69, the factory rating for the RA4 engine, in a '69 Bird, is 345, not 375. It's factory rated 370 in a '69 GTO. Don't know what the NHRA factors were in '69. Maybe it was 375 & that's why you used that number.

(2) Later you referred to a GTO RA4 engine as an "oval port". Pontiac guys have always referred to 'em as "round" port. The '68 RA2, '69 & '70 RA4, '71 & '72 455HO, '73 & '74 SD455 engines were all said to have "round" port heads, since the exhaust ports were all perfectly round. Just as a side note, the '69 thru '72 round port engines also had aluminum intake manifolds.

Again I'll say these are very minor things, but will be quickly noticed by most all Pontiac guys who read it.

I suppose each car brand has certain terminology for their equipment. Some Pontiac guys are real sticklers for using the term "Tri-Power", rather than "Three Deuces". I personally prefer to use "Three Deuces". I suppose that's because of the goofy GTO song I've always loved. You know, "Three deuces & a 4 speed, & a 389".



But, because Tri-Power seems to be more acceptable to most Pontiac guys, I've tried to use Tri-Power, when posting info. But, in person, I'll usually say a car has 3-deuces, rather than saying "It's a Tri-Power car".

https://pontiactripower.com/

[oldskool]

Just as most people like to root for the home team, I'd like to see more Pontiacs in your results.

2 cars that come to mind, that I don't remember seeing, are the Greg Murnane '67 "Limelighter" GTO & the Gary Moore '61 "Acre Maker" Pontiac.

Both cars were nat record holders & class winners. Moore won the NHRA div 4 points in '68. IIRC, Murnane was #2 in div 5 points with his GTO.

Besides just me wanting more Pontiac coverage, just because I'm a Pontiac guy, once the Mopars took over, in the mid '60's, Mopars & Fords are about all you see. So, for those later '60's years, having more Pontiac pics would just add a little more variety to the presentation.

And, considering all the super strong Ford & Mopar competition, it seems to me to have been quite a feat to win class & set records, with a Pontiac.

Hey, this is just a completely biased post. I admit it !

[DeuceCoupe]

Originally Posted by Rat Patrol

OLD Skool

Ok, the only info I have is whats on the list of winners I posted, and DC’s tables....which you quoted.

So to answer your 1st question - So.......Not ‘made up’ - You’d have to ask DC how he arrived at the ‘likely contenders’.

I decided on the B/SA Ben Wolf Pontiac entry after discussions with DC - there were three viable 1969 Pontiacs that met class. If you think the Firebird is a better ‘fit’ - I’ll change the entry - after all, all we have is the Driver, the Brand and the year model.

Now that I'm back:
To clarify:
1. See my longer reply 29 October (edited a couple times including this morning 30 October)
2. I made my lists/tcolor tables from a writeup in Drag News, some of the pages were hard to read. I'm pretty sure of most of the cars but if a box is shaded pink, it means it's a GUESS - sometimes I'll guess several "maybe's" hoping to jog a memory somewhere.
3. The Drag News writeup looks like it was done pre-teardown, so some cars got DQ after my Drag News results. When Rat found that final list as posted, the two conflict.
4. So, I've updated my color tables to include all the DQ's which changes some of the winners.

Ben Wolf & Dick Simon cars/engines are still a mystery.
We can guess, and for sure some cars DONT fit, but dont know yet what they actually ran.

I'm glad this thread is so active - we'll figure it out!

[DeuceCoupe]

Originally Posted by Rat Patrol

So what motor, what HP was this car?

(From PG12)
I have Bunkers car as a 69 GTO, RA4 factored to 380hp, same factoring as 1970-71.
3500/380=9.21

NOTE this has some implications for Ben Wolf's car from Spring 69.
Unless NHRA de-factored the RA4 from eg 415hp to 380hp DURING the 1969 race year (highly unlikely), this means there's no way a 69 GTO factored at 380hp could run B/SA=8.00 class.

Also, a 69 Firebird RA4 factored at 380hp does not fit B/SA=8.00.

And, a 68 Firebird RA2 only fits if factored to 395hp or higher.
Would a RA2 be factored HIGHER than a RA4?
Seems unlikely.

I'm wondering if the Ben Wolf B/SA=8.00 car was a Pontiac at all!

[DeuceCoupe]

Originally Posted by oldskool

I would really be interested in knowing what was the quickest time a legal '66 GTO Stocker ever ran, in national NHRA competition, who sponsored the car, who built it, & who drove it.

Would also like to know what year the last SERIOUS '66 Tri-Power GTO Stocker raced, in national NHRA competition.

I'm not aware of any that have run this century.

May not have been any since the late '60's or early '70's, since there have been so many later model Pontiac combos that were more competitive.

Unless a '66 GTO would show up on some win list or nat record list, I don't know how you'd ever find the info I'm talkin about.

I'll ask on a couple of Pontiac sites I'm on & see if anybody has any related info.

The fastest WIN I have is Vanke at Spring 66
12.70 at 108.82
In C/S=9.50 class.
That's also the 1st & ONLY National win I'm showing for the 389 GTO, either 4v or 6v. I think the 400 was rated more competitively.
Seems like after Spring 66, the W30, RA1, and Z28 took over that class.