Why Class racing dies slowly

Dick Butler · 07-18-2015, 03:38 PM

Back when NHRA started and Class racing was a main part of the program there were only so many cars to race. That number of fords, Chryslers, chevies Pontiacs and oldsmobiles were factored by the factory hp ratings. Some became winners some losers.
People became excited and chose winning combinations from their favorite brand.
Lets say there were 40 cars that had readily available pistons, cams, headers etc.
Lest say with 40 years each year 40 more motor, chassis combinations were available, 1600 Combinations. More development of Cams headers, tires have made it possible to outfit about any motor with racing parts.
If you built a 1955 chevy or ford by the time it was 1970 every year a new, "better" combination could be used. You had a decision. Could you afford to sell and build new? Some did this and became dominant. Those left with the lesser competitive cars have had to suck it up and be satisfied to race the bracket portion of the racing if they could qualify.
NHRA with their light factoring for new combinations, 400 motor, injected motors, all the way to COPO or Blown cars have continued this extinction of hard working car owners who could never hope to keep up with a more lightly factored car. It happened every year and hundreds of people lose their edge in class and become disappointed that they cannot afford to keep up. Some quit, some just race less, some develop the attitude that they should USE the factoring weakness to develop a "one of a kind" to rub it in someones face by qualifying #1 or mashing their former classmates with their bogus combination. Sometimes they get factored and then THEY are mad because now its their turn to be stuck with an also ran.
This is why I believe that when Mod was stopped the only continually level sportsman classes were destroyed. LB/CI with spec limits is the only way to continue to enjoy your chances of winning a class with fellow racers.
Too Many Classes only was a form of allowing more $paying entrants who didn't realize it but they were attempting to create a place they could shine with their hard work by hiding from other bogus combinations.
Think about it and you will understand our position in Stk and SS racing. Even combinations or one combination classes were always competitive and fun till someone produced something unfactored or outside the understanding at the time which produced a killer car. Then the class had to become ALL the newer find or no one else could hope to be successful with just their hard work. Money to buy new car, Money to sell old cars at a loss and disappointment were the results.
We need a Level playing field class system not based on someone's Guess of HP. Not with apples running oranges but 350 running 350 at same wts and equipment. You choose the way its done, Spec, Crate, Sealed motor or..... Modified Eliminator.
Thanks for reading.

Roberte · 07-18-2015, 04:32 PM

Not to be respectful, but that's .90 racing.
I've been in the game since the 60's and
it's always been the same. The smartest
s/ss builders and drivers always find a way
to win or just have fun ! Whine less and
enjoy racin' if that's what you want to do.

Bob

Adaptation and ingenuity trumps whining.

Jack Matyas · 07-18-2015, 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dick Butler

Back when NHRA started and Class racing was a main part of the program there were only so many cars to race. That number of fords, Chryslers, chevies Pontiacs and oldsmobiles were factored by the factory hp ratings. Some became winners some losers.
People became excited and chose winning combinations from their favorite brand.
Lets say there were 40 cars that had readily available pistons, cams, headers etc.
Lest say with 40 years each year 40 more motor, chassis combinations were available, 1600 Combinations. More development of Cams headers, tires have made it possible to outfit about any motor with racing parts.
If you built a 1955 chevy or ford by the time it was 1970 every year a new, "better" combination could be used. You had a decision. Could you afford to sell and build new? Some did this and became dominant. Those left with the lesser competitive cars have had to suck it up and be satisfied to race the bracket portion of the racing if they could qualify.
NHRA with their light factoring for new combinations, 400 motor, injected motors, all the way to COPO or Blown cars have continued this extinction of hard working car owners who could never hope to keep up with a more lightly factored car. It happened every year and hundreds of people lose their edge in class and become disappointed that they cannot afford to keep up. Some quit, some just race less, some develop the attitude that they should USE the factoring weakness to develop a "one of a kind" to rub it in someones face by qualifying #1 or mashing their former classmates with their bogus combination. Sometimes they get factored and then THEY are mad because now its their turn to be stuck with an also ran.
This is why I believe that when Mod was stopped the only continually level sportsman classes were destroyed. LB/CI with spec limits is the only way to continue to enjoy your chances of winning a class with fellow racers.
Too Many Classes only was a form of allowing more $paying entrants who didn't realize it but they were attempting to create a place they could shine with their hard work by hiding from other bogus combinations.
Think about it and you will understand our position in Stk and SS racing. Even combinations or one combination classes were always competitive and fun till someone produced something unfactored or outside the understanding at the time which produced a killer car. Then the class had to become ALL the newer find or no one else could hope to be successful with just their hard work. Money to buy new car, Money to sell old cars at a loss and disappointment were the results.
We need a Level playing field class system not based on someone's Guess of HP. Not with apples running oranges but 350 running 350 at same wts and equipment. You choose the way its done, Spec, Crate, Sealed motor or..... Modified Eliminator.
Thanks for reading.

Most of what you posted here is simply not true - here at New England Dragway this weekend is a '55 Chevy I believe is a Q/SA and he has the exact same chance as I do in my COPO to win this race .Period .All he has to do is run the number after getting a good light .

Dick Butler · 07-18-2015, 05:08 PM

[QUOTE=Jack Matyas;476789]Most of what you posted here is simply not true - here at New England Dragway this weekend is a '55 Chevy I believe is a Q/SA and he has the exact same chance as I do in my COPO to win this race .Period .All he has to do is run the number after getting a good light .[/QUOTE0

Jack, Bracket racing eliminator is not what the post is about. Any bracket car from any track in the country can win the race if allowed in the race.
My Post title is Class racing not Bracket racing..Thanks for reading...

Dick Butler · 07-18-2015, 05:13 PM

Roberte, Thanks for reading but try it again. If you truly run Class to win Class you will understand the post better. I have raced Stk and SS for 35 years and tried three cars in one class and was continually trumped by the latest and greatest discovery found new in the tech book. Some call that evolution or progress. When its purely related to bad factoring it is disappointing and costly. I am not whining, just commenting on why class racing has deteriorated to More and More expense and less satisfaction unless you have the latest trick car in the class.

J.R. Haddad · 07-18-2015, 05:48 PM

Dick, I have raced in Stock, Super Stock, and Comp. since 1973. In 1992,
after winning the Comp. Division Championship in 1991, I retired as my kids were getting to the age where it just wasn't working. Last year I bought a Stocker, and I'm having the time of my life again!! Ken has given us this wonderful forum to talk, learn, and hopefully promote the sport. I
think you need to start a Heads- Up Forum, somewhere else. J.R.

Billy Nees · 07-18-2015, 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dick Butler

Roberte, Thanks for reading but try it again. If you truly run Class to win Class you will understand the post better. I have raced Stk and SS for 35 years and tried three cars in one class and was continually trumped by the latest and greatest discovery found new in the tech book. Some call that evolution or progress. When its purely related to bad factoring it is disappointing and costly. I am not whining, just commenting on why class racing has deteriorated to More and More expense and less satisfaction unless you have the latest trick car in the class.

Dick, I'm sorry to have to disagree with you again but it sure sounds to me like you're whining. You've tried 3 cars in one class and was continually trumped? Either you're a poor judge of combos or you need a new engine builder. i don't understand what your deep rooted hatred of "bracket racing" comes from. Correct me if I'm wrong but even in the "heads-up" old days wasn't there a 1/10 under the record break out?
I also don't see how Class Racing is deteriorating. It seems to me that, taken as a whole, Stock and SS seem to have the best car counts race after race. And as far as your more expense/ less satisfaction crack, speaking for myself, the worse the combo that I build, the more satisfaction I'm able to get out of competing with it.
Maybe you should try a "Dime Rocket". It can't hurt.

Jack Matyas · 07-18-2015, 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dick Butler

Roberte, Thanks for reading but try it again. If you truly run Class to win Class you will understand the post better. I have raced Stk and SS for 35 years and tried three cars in one class and was continually trumped by the latest and greatest discovery found new in the tech book. Some call that evolution or progress. When its purely related to bad factoring it is disappointing and costly. I am not whining, just commenting on why class racing has deteriorated to More and More expense and less satisfaction unless you have the latest trick car in the class.

Dick - what you are saying is that you don't want change and want to stay in the past .Should we not allow cars built after 1969 to race in Stock? Sounds to me like you should build a nostalgia S/S car .But wait....even that is based on a bracket format .Not many people know that I really like old cars - but you must realize time marches on and nothing stays the same .

Your thirty - five years didn't teach you that newer ideas come along and you have to go with the flow or stay on the porch ............

Herbie Null · 07-18-2015, 06:46 PM

Dick, always enjoy reading your post but the things that upset you about the class as you state is the same path you took. I can remember running Melissa in your new sunfire and I was driving my old 67 camaro SS/HA and she out MPH me on the big end with a 305. You were spending a lot of cash and had the best of everything with all the latest technology and in my opinion an under factored combo. When the new GT cars came out you and others chose to take the new direction that started this very same path that we have today. I had your same feelings about the sport. Instead of giving up I adapted and got a GT car. When you were racing the money you spent to have the best of everything and be at the top of the qualifying sheet was seen by all. I never herd you mentioned create motors or even how to get the class closer on the indexes or combine classes, why would you when your cars had the performance advantage. You say your speaking about class racing and not bracket racing and then you say you would like to have create motors, I remember your super stock operation and what you say today from your actions back then just boggles the mind.

Kevin Panzino · 07-18-2015, 07:02 PM

Guys, please, please CAN WE FRIGGIN STOP BASHING OUR OWN DAMM CLASSES? At least online where NHRA clearly reads it??? The more they read this complaining garbage nonsense about how its dying, about how everything sucks, about how NHRA sucks, the more likely they are to walk away from it. Jeez, guys this is getting old. For crying out loud, you guys are trying to seal your own damm fate.

For all the horror stories online about NHRA, I cant even come up with one single moment where I was not treated fairly and with respect by NHRA,

Most races are hitting quota, we have a younger group of S/SS racers than we've had in years. What exactly is wrong? What? That you can't run off the national record as an index and win every single weekend with .100+ lights??

STOP SAYING OUR CLASSES ARE DYING. Just get over the fact that it wont EVER be the same as it was in 1979. If you'd like to jump in the water,come on in, its quite nice. If not, SHUT THE HECK UP and let the rest of us enjoy the ride, which is a heck of alot of fun right now.

Kevin Panzino 1202

07-18-2015, 04:32 PM	#2
Roberte Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Posts: 68 Likes: 166 Liked 14 Times in 8 Posts	Re: Why Class racing dies slowly Not to be respectful, but that's .90 racing. I've been in the game since the 60's and it's always been the same. The smartest s/ss builders and drivers always find a way to win or just have fun ! Whine less and enjoy racin' if that's what you want to do. Bob Adaptation and ingenuity trumps whining.

07-18-2015, 05:08 PM	#4
Dick Butler VIP Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Richmond Indiana Posts: 1,197 Likes: 5 Liked 32 Times in 19 Posts	Re: Why Class racing dies slowly [QUOTE=Jack Matyas;476789]Most of what you posted here is simply not true - here at New England Dragway this weekend is a '55 Chevy I believe is a Q/SA and he has the exact same chance as I do in my COPO to win this race .Period .All he has to do is run the number after getting a good light .[/QUOTE0 Jack, Bracket racing eliminator is not what the post is about. Any bracket car from any track in the country can win the race if allowed in the race. My Post title is Class racing not Bracket racing..Thanks for reading...

07-18-2015, 05:13 PM	#5
Dick Butler VIP Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Richmond Indiana Posts: 1,197 Likes: 5 Liked 32 Times in 19 Posts	Re: Why Class racing dies slowly Roberte, Thanks for reading but try it again. If you truly run Class to win Class you will understand the post better. I have raced Stk and SS for 35 years and tried three cars in one class and was continually trumped by the latest and greatest discovery found new in the tech book. Some call that evolution or progress. When its purely related to bad factoring it is disappointing and costly. I am not whining, just commenting on why class racing has deteriorated to More and More expense and less satisfaction unless you have the latest trick car in the class.

07-18-2015, 05:48 PM	#6
J.R. Haddad Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 622 Likes: 505 Liked 874 Times in 195 Posts	Re: Why Class racing dies slowly Dick, I have raced in Stock, Super Stock, and Comp. since 1973. In 1992, after winning the Comp. Division Championship in 1991, I retired as my kids were getting to the age where it just wasn't working. Last year I bought a Stocker, and I'm having the time of my life again!! Ken has given us this wonderful forum to talk, learn, and hopefully promote the sport. I think you need to start a Heads- Up Forum, somewhere else. J.R.

07-18-2015, 06:46 PM	#9
Herbie Null Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: greencastle pa Posts: 198 Likes: 52 Liked 285 Times in 55 Posts	Re: Why Class racing dies slowly Dick, always enjoy reading your post but the things that upset you about the class as you state is the same path you took. I can remember running Melissa in your new sunfire and I was driving my old 67 camaro SS/HA and she out MPH me on the big end with a 305. You were spending a lot of cash and had the best of everything with all the latest technology and in my opinion an under factored combo. When the new GT cars came out you and others chose to take the new direction that started this very same path that we have today. I had your same feelings about the sport. Instead of giving up I adapted and got a GT car. When you were racing the money you spent to have the best of everything and be at the top of the qualifying sheet was seen by all. I never herd you mentioned create motors or even how to get the class closer on the indexes or combine classes, why would you when your cars had the performance advantage. You say your speaking about class racing and not bracket racing and then you say you would like to have create motors, I remember your super stock operation and what you say today from your actions back then just boggles the mind. __________________ Herbie Null 201 SS Last edited by Herbie Null; 07-18-2015 at 06:57 PM.

07-18-2015, 03:38 PM	#1
Dick Butler VIP Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Richmond Indiana Posts: 1,197 Likes: 5 Liked 32 Times in 19 Posts	Why Class racing dies slowly Back when NHRA started and Class racing was a main part of the program there were only so many cars to race. That number of fords, Chryslers, chevies Pontiacs and oldsmobiles were factored by the factory hp ratings. Some became winners some losers. People became excited and chose winning combinations from their favorite brand. Lets say there were 40 cars that had readily available pistons, cams, headers etc. Lest say with 40 years each year 40 more motor, chassis combinations were available, 1600 Combinations. More development of Cams headers, tires have made it possible to outfit about any motor with racing parts. If you built a 1955 chevy or ford by the time it was 1970 every year a new, "better" combination could be used. You had a decision. Could you afford to sell and build new? Some did this and became dominant. Those left with the lesser competitive cars have had to suck it up and be satisfied to race the bracket portion of the racing if they could qualify. NHRA with their light factoring for new combinations, 400 motor, injected motors, all the way to COPO or Blown cars have continued this extinction of hard working car owners who could never hope to keep up with a more lightly factored car. It happened every year and hundreds of people lose their edge in class and become disappointed that they cannot afford to keep up. Some quit, some just race less, some develop the attitude that they should USE the factoring weakness to develop a "one of a kind" to rub it in someones face by qualifying #1 or mashing their former classmates with their bogus combination. Sometimes they get factored and then THEY are mad because now its their turn to be stuck with an also ran. This is why I believe that when Mod was stopped the only continually level sportsman classes were destroyed. LB/CI with spec limits is the only way to continue to enjoy your chances of winning a class with fellow racers. Too Many Classes only was a form of allowing more $paying entrants who didn't realize it but they were attempting to create a place they could shine with their hard work by hiding from other bogus combinations. Think about it and you will understand our position in Stk and SS racing. Even combinations or one combination classes were always competitive and fun till someone produced something unfactored or outside the understanding at the time which produced a killer car. Then the class had to become ALL the newer find or no one else could hope to be successful with just their hard work. Money to buy new car, Money to sell old cars at a loss and disappointment were the results. We need a Level playing field class system not based on someone's Guess of HP. Not with apples running oranges but 350 running 350 at same wts and equipment. You choose the way its done, Spec, Crate, Sealed motor or..... Modified Eliminator. Thanks for reading.

07-18-2015, 07:02 PM	#10
Kevin Panzino Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Pittsburgh Posts: 520 Likes: 245 Liked 550 Times in 106 Posts	Re: Why Class racing dies slowly Guys, please, please CAN WE FRIGGIN STOP BASHING OUR OWN DAMM CLASSES? At least online where NHRA clearly reads it??? The more they read this complaining garbage nonsense about how its dying, about how everything sucks, about how NHRA sucks, the more likely they are to walk away from it. Jeez, guys this is getting old. For crying out loud, you guys are trying to seal your own damm fate. For all the horror stories online about NHRA, I cant even come up with one single moment where I was not treated fairly and with respect by NHRA, Most races are hitting quota, we have a younger group of S/SS racers than we've had in years. What exactly is wrong? What? That you can't run off the national record as an index and win every single weekend with .100+ lights?? STOP SAYING OUR CLASSES ARE DYING. Just get over the fact that it wont EVER be the same as it was in 1979. If you'd like to jump in the water,come on in, its quite nice. If not, SHUT THE HECK UP and let the rest of us enjoy the ride, which is a heck of alot of fun right now. Kevin Panzino 1202