TBI fuel injection issue...

Greg Reimer 7376 · 10-20-2014, 11:46 AM

Got a good question. Got a '90 GMC 2500 Suburban,454,all the towing stuff, just had to put on a new catalytic converter to get it to pass the Cal smog inspection, runs great, but on a cold start up, it goes real rich, black smoke, blubbers all over the place, it takes a mile or so to straighten out.. EGR valve was sticking, replaced that, MAP sensor, the engine coolant temperature switch,(two on this motor-one for the temp gauge, the other for the engine computer, still little improvement, so, since I feel at home on this forum around fellow motorheads, I thought I'd ask. I understand its not too uncommon a problem.Any tech assistance will be appreciated. Thanks,Greg

Mark Ugrich · 10-20-2014, 11:59 AM

Oxygen sensor could cause what you've described.If you have a scan tool the MV readings on the sensor should vary once the engine warms up.Start by checking for any stored codes in the computer.

njk53 · 10-20-2014, 02:41 PM

Make sure the port that the EGR valve bolts to is clean. I had a Ford Escort that I replaced the EGR on with little improvement and a guy told me to make sure the port the EGR interfaces with was clean. Mine was full of big pieces of carbon.

Are you getting a check engine light?

Eddies66 · 10-20-2014, 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg Reimer 7376

Got a good question. Got a '90 GMC 2500 Suburban,454,all the towing stuff, just had to put on a new catalytic converter to get it to pass the Cal smog inspection, runs great, but on a cold start up, it goes real rich, black smoke, blubbers all over the place, it takes a mile or so to straighten out.. EGR valve was sticking, replaced that, MAP sensor, the engine coolant temperature switch,(two on this motor-one for the temp gauge, the other for the engine computer, still little improvement, so, since I feel at home on this forum around fellow motorheads, I thought I'd ask. I understand its not too uncommon a problem.Any tech assistance will be appreciated. Thanks,Greg

Greg, I concur with Mark, converters need an air/fuel mixture that is constantly flip-flopping from lean to rich. If the oxygen sensor is sluggish or dead, the fuel feedback will flip-flop too slowly or remain rich all the time. Will I see you at the Finals this year?

Greg Reimer 7376 · 10-20-2014, 05:26 PM

Yes.Tony is driving the red Chevelle in L. This Suburban is an OBD I. While the EGR valve was off, I fired the engine and raced it several times, making a racket doing so. No new carbon issues have surfaced. this thing is rich as can be on a cold start only.Rest of the time, it runs great. This also has a non heated single wire O2 sensor.See you at Pomona whichever day you wish. Let us know so we can keep an eye out for you.

Ed Wright · 10-20-2014, 05:33 PM

The O2 sensor has about zero effect on cold starts. Those older TBI trucks do not have heated O2 sensors, thus don't go into Closed Loop nearly as soon as later models. Sounds more like when it goes into Closed Loop it is correcting it's self. If it was the O2 sensor it would be more prone to go rich after it went into closed loop. Not on cold starts.
First, I would pull the air filter, and have somebody turn the key on, and watch for leaking injectors.
Next, with the truck "cold soaked", (having sat for 8 hours or so), hook up your scan tool. Just turn the key on. Verify the displayed temp is very close to the ambient temp. If it indicates a good bit colder than actual temp where the truck is sitting, that is likely your problem. Seen this many times. Same effect as the choke set too tight on a carb. When it goes into Closed Loop it will lean it's self back to 14.7-1. If the indicated coolant temp is skewed low, it will also go into closed loop later than normal, causing the rich condition to last longer.
High resistance in the coolant temp circuit will cause lower than actual temps seen by the ECM. Unplug the coolant sensor, the ECM "sees" -40 degrees F.

High fuel pressure will cause the same thing. This will also cause low BLM & INT numbers on your scan tool in closed loop. Neutral values for those parameters would be 128. Lower numbers indicate pulling fuel to correct for a perceived rich condition. Higher indicates adding fuel for a perceived lean condition.

Eddies66 · 10-20-2014, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg Reimer 7376

Yes.Tony is driving the red Chevelle in L. This Suburban is an OBD I. While the EGR valve was off, I fired the engine and raced it several times, making a racket doing so. No new carbon issues have surfaced. this thing is rich as can be on a cold start only.Rest of the time, it runs great. This also has a non heated single wire O2 sensor.See you at Pomona whichever day you wish. Let us know so we can keep an eye out for you.

I will be there Friday as always and of course breakfast is on me.

Alan Roehrich · 10-20-2014, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ed Wright

The O2 sensor has about zero effect on cold starts. Those older TBI trucks do not have heated O2 sensors, thus don't go into Closed Loop nearly as soon as later models. Sounds more like when it goes into Closed Loop it is correcting it's self. If it was the O2 sensor it would be more prone to go rich after it went into closed loop. Not on cold starts.
First, I would pull the air filter, and have somebody turn the key on, and watch for leaking injectors.
Next, with the truck "cold soaked", (having sat for 8 hours or so), hook up your scan tool. Just turn the key on. Verify the displayed temp is very close to the ambient temp. If it indicates a good bit colder than actual temp where the truck is sitting, that is likely your problem. Seen this many times. Same effect as the choke set too tight on a carb. When it goes into Closed Loop it will lean it's self back to 14.7-1. If the indicated coolant temp is skewed low, it will also go into closed loop later than normal, causing the rich condition to last longer.
High resistance in the coolant temp circuit will cause lower than actual temps seen by the ECM. Unplug the coolant sensor, the ECM "sees" -40 degrees F.

High fuel pressure will cause the same thing. This will also cause low BLM & INT numbers on your scan tool in closed loop. Neutral values for those parameters would be 128. Lower numbers indicate pulling fuel to correct for a perceived rich condition. Higher indicates adding fuel for a perceived lean condition.

Ed has this one nailed. The engine ignores the O2 sensor on cold start, and until it goes to closed loop.

Could be any of these, or a combination of any of these:

Leaking injectors, leaking fuel pressure regulator, or possible problem in the coolant sensor or harness.

1legjerry · 10-20-2014, 10:26 PM

Try reset your IAC
http://www.ehow.com/how_7959677_rese...le-gm-tbi.html

Might want to invest in a data logger if you plan to keep it for much longer
http://www.moates.net/

Good forum on how to tune a TBI.
http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Injection/forum.php

Wish I had a 454 in my 89 V2500.

Greg Reimer 7376 · 10-21-2014, 09:01 AM

OK. Without picking up a wrench, this is what I have suspected/deduced:.
A. Oxy sensor doesn't work on anything below a certain temperature. Since this is a cold start issue, it can't be that, since the ECU doesn't receive exhaust temperature data until at least partial warm up.
B.Engine coolant temperature sensor has been replaced. This is the two wire sensor located in front of the thermostat on the intake.If this is disconnected and the engine started it is so rich that it won't even continue running. With it plugged in, it at least runs. Obviously,this has to be working since engine warm up has a fairly fast effect on the rich condition.
C. With the air cleaner off, and the engine running, two fairly distinct cone shaped showers of fuel can easily be seen leaving the injector nozzles and making their way past the throttle blades into the engine. Disconnecting each injector's electrical connector one at a time and reconnecting them results in an equal drop in rpm as the engine receives less fuel.
D. With the engine not running,activating the fuel pump to pressurize the fuel system didn't reveal any injector leakage.
E.All of the above described suggestions and discussion are relevant, I just haven't taken the time to find it yet. I'm sure the catalytic converter that I took off was ruined by cold starts and too much fuel. This truck only ran 2000 miles in the last 4 years since I got it. It runs well and tows strong. I went to Bakersfield two or three years ago towing my open trailer and Chevelle up there, a distance of 150 miles each way,
you all know that that's not exactly an economical flat ride, and got 10 miles per gallon, doing the whole trip on less than one tank of fuel. I'll get it right, and update this thread.

10-20-2014, 11:46 AM	#1
Greg Reimer 7376 VIP Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Glendora,Calif. Posts: 1,110 Likes: 164 Liked 646 Times in 207 Posts	TBI fuel injection issue... Got a good question. Got a '90 GMC 2500 Suburban,454,all the towing stuff, just had to put on a new catalytic converter to get it to pass the Cal smog inspection, runs great, but on a cold start up, it goes real rich, black smoke, blubbers all over the place, it takes a mile or so to straighten out.. EGR valve was sticking, replaced that, MAP sensor, the engine coolant temperature switch,(two on this motor-one for the temp gauge, the other for the engine computer, still little improvement, so, since I feel at home on this forum around fellow motorheads, I thought I'd ask. I understand its not too uncommon a problem.Any tech assistance will be appreciated. Thanks,Greg

10-20-2014, 11:59 AM	#2
Mark Ugrich Member Join Date: May 2011 Location: Auburndale,Florida Posts: 201 Likes: 20 Liked 57 Times in 32 Posts	Re: TBI fuel injection issue... Oxygen sensor could cause what you've described.If you have a scan tool the MV readings on the sensor should vary once the engine warms up.Start by checking for any stored codes in the computer.

10-20-2014, 02:41 PM	#3
njk53 Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: East China, MI Posts: 504 Likes: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: TBI fuel injection issue... Make sure the port that the EGR valve bolts to is clean. I had a Ford Escort that I replaced the EGR on with little improvement and a guy told me to make sure the port the EGR interfaces with was clean. Mine was full of big pieces of carbon. Are you getting a check engine light? __________________ Nelson Kowal Stock 345

10-20-2014, 05:26 PM	#5
Greg Reimer 7376 VIP Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Glendora,Calif. Posts: 1,110 Likes: 164 Liked 646 Times in 207 Posts	Re: TBI fuel injection issue... Yes.Tony is driving the red Chevelle in L. This Suburban is an OBD I. While the EGR valve was off, I fired the engine and raced it several times, making a racket doing so. No new carbon issues have surfaced. this thing is rich as can be on a cold start only.Rest of the time, it runs great. This also has a non heated single wire O2 sensor.See you at Pomona whichever day you wish. Let us know so we can keep an eye out for you.

10-20-2014, 05:33 PM	#6
Ed Wright Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Sand Springs, OK Posts: 8,132 Likes: 896 Liked 389 Times in 168 Posts	Re: TBI fuel injection issue... The O2 sensor has about zero effect on cold starts. Those older TBI trucks do not have heated O2 sensors, thus don't go into Closed Loop nearly as soon as later models. Sounds more like when it goes into Closed Loop it is correcting it's self. If it was the O2 sensor it would be more prone to go rich after it went into closed loop. Not on cold starts. First, I would pull the air filter, and have somebody turn the key on, and watch for leaking injectors. Next, with the truck "cold soaked", (having sat for 8 hours or so), hook up your scan tool. Just turn the key on. Verify the displayed temp is very close to the ambient temp. If it indicates a good bit colder than actual temp where the truck is sitting, that is likely your problem. Seen this many times. Same effect as the choke set too tight on a carb. When it goes into Closed Loop it will lean it's self back to 14.7-1. If the indicated coolant temp is skewed low, it will also go into closed loop later than normal, causing the rich condition to last longer. High resistance in the coolant temp circuit will cause lower than actual temps seen by the ECM. Unplug the coolant sensor, the ECM "sees" -40 degrees F. High fuel pressure will cause the same thing. This will also cause low BLM & INT numbers on your scan tool in closed loop. Neutral values for those parameters would be 128. Lower numbers indicate pulling fuel to correct for a perceived rich condition. Higher indicates adding fuel for a perceived lean condition. __________________ Ed Wright 4156 SS/JA

10-20-2014, 10:26 PM	#9
1legjerry Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 68 Likes: 4 Liked 59 Times in 9 Posts	Re: TBI fuel injection issue... Try reset your IAC http://www.ehow.com/how_7959677_rese...le-gm-tbi.html Might want to invest in a data logger if you plan to keep it for much longer http://www.moates.net/ Good forum on how to tune a TBI. http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Injection/forum.php Wish I had a 454 in my 89 V2500.

10-21-2014, 09:01 AM	#10
Greg Reimer 7376 VIP Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Glendora,Calif. Posts: 1,110 Likes: 164 Liked 646 Times in 207 Posts	Re: TBI fuel injection issue... OK. Without picking up a wrench, this is what I have suspected/deduced:. A. Oxy sensor doesn't work on anything below a certain temperature. Since this is a cold start issue, it can't be that, since the ECU doesn't receive exhaust temperature data until at least partial warm up. B.Engine coolant temperature sensor has been replaced. This is the two wire sensor located in front of the thermostat on the intake.If this is disconnected and the engine started it is so rich that it won't even continue running. With it plugged in, it at least runs. Obviously,this has to be working since engine warm up has a fairly fast effect on the rich condition. C. With the air cleaner off, and the engine running, two fairly distinct cone shaped showers of fuel can easily be seen leaving the injector nozzles and making their way past the throttle blades into the engine. Disconnecting each injector's electrical connector one at a time and reconnecting them results in an equal drop in rpm as the engine receives less fuel. D. With the engine not running,activating the fuel pump to pressurize the fuel system didn't reveal any injector leakage. E.All of the above described suggestions and discussion are relevant, I just haven't taken the time to find it yet. I'm sure the catalytic converter that I took off was ruined by cold starts and too much fuel. This truck only ran 2000 miles in the last 4 years since I got it. It runs well and tows strong. I went to Bakersfield two or three years ago towing my open trailer and Chevelle up there, a distance of 150 miles each way, you all know that that's not exactly an economical flat ride, and got 10 miles per gallon, doing the whole trip on less than one tank of fuel. I'll get it right, and update this thread.