Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

If you're looking over your shoulder for the whole race, you're doing it wrong. And you're trying to think too much.

The starting line, by the very nature of handicap racing, is unequal. So is the finish line.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Bill, you were aware of the rules when you started racing, you made a choice about what combination to build, now because you think its unfair you want to change the rules to your liking.Bill maybe you don't realize it but not everybody thinks its unfair, its part of what drag racing is, time to give it a rest

Neal

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

I agree , Alan. The point I was making is those things can't be changed.


( thread now tied for 3rd place!)

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Let's go for the record

BTW - No one said what is wrong or unfair with both cars losing

How often do you red light - I hope not a lot?

How often have you been part of a double red light?

How often were you the first to leave on a double red light?

I know someone will say even once is too many

If I had so many red lights that I thought the first or worst rule should be changed - I would likely work on my reaction times

Luckily we have a beautiful Sunday afternoon to allow us to forget about such important issues

I will check in later and see if anyone has anything to say about the "both lose" rule



:-) peace (if that is possible)

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

What, and please be precise, is a "clean tree"?

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Why is it you think I'm lying? It's no spin, just, call NHRA tech or NHRA Stock / Super Stock rules committee or anybody else you can think of past the receptionist or janitor. Ask their position and if it does not meet your expectations, solicit for a rules change. It's really that simple.
Or you can continually attack your keyboard and get your blood boiling and accomplish NOTHING.
And I haven't been kicked off any forum so go fantasize about some other problem. This really points to how irrational you are. And that's why I'm sure you will not get past the receptionist at NHRA.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

How bout this... if you can drive.... the slower car leaves with a .001 to .010 light, leaving the faster with a huge obstacle to overcome.
And Alan, what are you doing looking over there anyway? You are a better driver than that. I don't know or care what's going in the other lane till I'm in high gear.

One year at Indy at the USN I was in SS/B and first round was paired with the slowest car in SS. I sat there forever wondering of the tree had malfunctioned. Finally, my side came down. A concentration nightmare.
I caught him in the last 10 feet or so at almost twice his speed. That was trying experience to say the least.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

If you can take advantage of them, there are advantages to both sides. Be careful watching the win light. I clutched the car at 1000 feet once because my win light was on. I got back to the pits and an NHRA official told me that NHRA had reviewed the tapes and I had in fact crossed the finish line first and was given the win. I was lucky.

I didn't know it but a piece of paper or other trash had triggered my win light. Your win light coming on doesn't always mean you've won.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Long spots like you described are easy. 5/10ths or less are hardest for me. Looking at my last amber, the other car goes past the tree on the other side. Hard to miss that. I have had guys tell me you could set a bomb off and they wouldn't know if. I've seen enough lousy lights from them in those conditions, I'm not buying that. :-)

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

The clean tree is what the first car to leave in a handicapped race has. No distractions of a tree counting down (n/a in the current days of tree blinders), or no distraction of a car leaving first.

Both fast(er) and slow(er) cars have advantages and disadvantages, and could be debated for years. But doing so on here will ultimately accomplish nothing. More often that not, these threads degenerate into name calling, posting off-the-wall photos, question/answer ducking, finger pointing, accusations, etc etc etc, and nothing positive usually ever comes of it. If I, or almost anyone else, had an issue with something, we would direct our input/comments/questions to the person or persons who could actually help and, maybe, do something about it. Week-long, 30+ page threads are, at best, entertainment, but seldom do nothing to solve any (perceived or real) problems.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

My actions or reactions start with the first bulb..... red alert.... second bulb... accellerator wide open..... third bulb.... release the clutch. And I always count them in my head as they come down so I am locked on the tree from the first bulb. My opponent could blow up, catch on fire and go up in smoke and I wouldn't know it untill I was in high gear.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Hi All,

When I started Drag Racing, both drivers got a "clean" flagman.

If it wasn't a heads up race the slower car, got their spot and moved down the track and sometimes got to race for 1200'.

The poor flagman was sometimes 100' down track...

We didn't have any other way to have a handicap start....

We have come a long way in the last 50 years...so why not take the final step and fix rule by making it just like ALL of the other rules in drag racing "first or worst"

Bob

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Agreed!! Absolutely true in all respects. In fact the nonsense in this thread is almost beyond comprehension and belief. Actually, a carefully timed, laser guided stroke, tactfully applied to the delete key by the admin should have put an end to this long ago.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Bunkster doesn't drive a race car, does he/she? LOL
Either that, or he/she is so slow that he/she always leaves first.
In that case he/she always has a clean tree and doesn't know the difference.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Disagreed! I'll bet Kenny is glad he didn't do as you suggested.
3rd place now in all time post participation...
Very informative, to say the least.. Keep it up!

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Bob ,
A little before my time, but what do you suppose would have happened if both cars jumped the flag and they couldn't decide who jumped first...
So , the track gave the win to the faster car...just because, well , you're supposed to get a special break if you go "fast".

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

You obviously didn't race then. We had many re-runs. I mean many. Ditto at the finish line when the guy(s) down there that pointed a flag at the winning lane thought it was too close to call.
Around here the spot in Stock was 25' per class, with a 250' max. I used to get the same spot on a D/S as an A/S.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

That's true if the only purpose of this site is to generate page hits for advertising. I would like to think that most racers frequent this board to learn how to become more competitive, buy and sell race car part and evolve to become a better racer. People who visit this board for those reasons represent "quality" page hits that are more valuable to advertisers than "non qualified" hits that come here to watch a circus.

The results to that approach are often short lived and usually wind up being counterproductive in the end.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Mark,

I'm not sure that you are telling the truth about never racing with a flagman....

I thought that you & Chuck Norton came up with the name for dirt??????????

Bob

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

I guess it takes all kinds, but who gets to be the arbitrator that sorts them out ?
You see where nobody can ever agree on anything here for the overall good of the sport.

Oh, and believe me, I've learned a lot here ...about personal agendas

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

I didn't say I never SAW that action.

Ct Dragway still had the flags in the base of the tower for many years.
They'd drag them out once in a while when the tree wouldn't work.

Okay, I DID get set out a few car lengths once or twice...Great traction down there :-(

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Bob.I didn't race back then but I remember Garlits say in a tape that the knowledgeable racers then would watch the starters elbow for a slight advantage of knowing when the arm was going to move.I guess that would cancel what you would call a "clean" flag.:>):>):>)

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Ed,this cretin is a wanna be who I'm told raced for about 5 minutes in the past and now just slithers in and makes a post to rile up the troops,then goes back under her rock.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

I, like many, spent way too much time on this site. I have been following this thread from the beginning, telling myself..........Oh S--- , not again. I believe that I have seen one person referring to NHRA officials as "Idiots". IMO, only a non racer would make that comment. Certainly, those of us that do race would risk being torn down at every event. I have seen "tell me why that is fair", referring to first versus worst, countless times. Let me ask the question: provided both drivers stay in their respective lanes, "How frequently does the driver that cuts the best light and runs closer to their dial win?" The answer: 100% How can you get more fair than that??? We, as drivers know this and I believe that is our intentions each and every time we race. So, forget the first or worst debate, it is a non issue. So the rules for winning are simply stated "cut the best light and run the number, and you win every time". The rules for losers are to foul then bitch about it not being fair. Not once have I heard a fellow racer tell me they lost via red light, then bitch about it or say "It's not fair, the other guy didn't have a chance to red light". We have rules for a reason. Only a fool would go out and build a 1948 Hudson (no offense to the Hudson fans) to run stock eliminator, only to go to the races and find that they can't run it because it is not in the class guide. Some on this thread would probably content that it is unfair and attempt to use twisted logic to change the rules for a problem they created for themself. And isn't a problem for the first red light a problem they created for themselves? I would recommend that those trying to use "Fairness logic" to change the rules, use this energy, and apply their relentless enthusiasm to good use elswhere. Such as: Why is it fair that only selected children get free lunches at school and others have to pay for them through property taxes? Why is it fair that selected ethnicities have more rights than others? How is diversity fair? How is it fair that illegals get free everything? Why don't you tackle important issues and leave the "first or worst" alone?

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

I just checked the entry list for Englishtown (Stock is full) and I see I'm the slowest turtle in the pond.Bill,please get on the horn with NHRA and get that red light rule changed fast.If I happen to get lucky and go some rounds I want the playing field leveled so I can win my first "big" Wally.

Thanks
Ed

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Nicely stated...:)

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Rate this thread! Presently a 2.00 out of 5.00! :D

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

I moved it up a whole point...Excellent!

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Ed,

I think you have broken the post counter...........It appears to be stuck at 4008 posts?????

Now you've done it......

No soup for you....

Bob

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Alan,

You CANNOT legislate advantages/disadvantages into the rules structure, BECAUSE there would be no end to it, once you started.

Allow me to elaborate, please:

For every situation that could be claimed to give an advantage or disadvantage to a faster car, there is a situation that creates an advantage, or disadvantage for a slower car. For example, yes, the slow car has a "clean tree" to leave off of... but a slow car is MUCH harder to dial, under changing weather conditions, (and, wind) because the quicker car doesn't pick up or lose e.t. nearly as severely as a slow car, and, yes, the quicker car has to watch the slower car leave, but he also sees the finish line come up as a movie, an unbroken series of visuals, which makes it a LOT easier than it is for the slower car, which sees the finish line as a series of snapshots, (looking forward, then back) with no continuity, and makes it a lot harder to "drive the stripe."

Then, there's the fact that this rule will be in effect for ANY handicapped race; it's not just about V/Stock vs. A/Stock.... More often, it will be F/Stock vs. G/Stock, with a handicap so short in duration that it cannot be seen with the naked eye.

So, I contend that "advantages" and "disadvantages" are all over the place (such as the disadvantage of excessive wheelspin on "faster" cars, or the inability to "cut a light" with slow cars now that the deep stage is disallowed, for example) and are impossible to accurately quantify, and surely can't be compensated for, by trying to write rules that "even the score" between cars with varying capabilities.

Virtually impossible, methinks.

The change I am recommending for the red light rule would give an advantage to NOBODY.

Who could be against that??? Hummmmmmm......

Just my 2-cents....

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Claude; if you think of the first red light rule as an advantage that somehow, evens the score for fast cars, then what would you say does the same (evens the score) for the fact that the second-to-leave car gets to "drive the stripe" at the finish line from behind, while the first- to-leave is out front, where he has to turn around (lose sight of the finish line) to monitor the faster car's progress?

"Super" category racers think that is a large enough advantage (being out front) that they spend BIG BUCKS to enable themselves to do just that, so it must be worth something... A whole "cottage industry" has sprung up to manufacture active throttle stops (and another, building high horsepower engines, to play "catch-up") to facilitate this modus operandus.

What is the "slow car advantage" that negates this situation???
I can't think of one; can you?

I reiterate: You CANNOT successfully, legislate advantages into the rules; the worsae red light rule gives an advantage to NOBODY.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

When I started racing (1955) the electronic handicap feature was 8 years in the future....

I'm not Karnak, and could not foresee this skewed rule.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

"I would like to think that most racers frequent this board to learn how to become more competitive."

When a person fouls first, with the rules as they are, they are "out"

If that person, due to his activities on this forum, is successful in getting this one-sided rule changed, the next time he fouls first, his opponent may foul WORSE, and he will win... and that makes him able to compete in the next round.

That is "more competitive."

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

[QUOTE= Why don't you tackle important issues and leave the "first or worst" alone?[/QUOTE]


If it were "First OR worse, it wouldn't need any attention. But, worse has no place in red lights, with the current rules.


"Why don't you tackle important issues and leave the "first or worst" alone?"

It's "twisted logic" that asks questions like that.

Not once have I heard a fellow racer tell me they lost via red light, then bitch about it or say "It's not fair, the other guy didn't have a chance to red light".

Don't you think that a red light is a lot like a breakout, in that everybody should have the same chance to disqualify themselves if they mess up?

They don't.

I don't know how many times it needs to be said before everybody "gets it," but if they ran the breakouts like they do the red lights, only the first car to break out would be eliminated instead of the one with the worse infraction.

Why don't they do that???

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

That may be your big chance to win a national event, Ed. It would be the exquisite irony if you had a "first red light" in the final, and your opponent bulbed worse...

Of course, it wouldn't matter, the way the rules are, now....

You'd still be a loser...

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Just sidesteps the question, Why not change the unfair things we can?"

If you can tell me what is fair or equitable about a rule that treats different compititors, differently, please do.

The first red light rule treats the first-to-leave cars differently from the way it treats second-to-leave cars, if the first-to-leave red lights.

No reason to do that.

The only reason they do it that way, now, is that when the system was created, they had no alternative. Now, they do.

NHRA's "bottom line" is no legitimate reason to maintain an unfair rule.

Like I said, "If you can tell me what is fair or equitable about a rule that treats different compititors, differently, please do."

I will bet a dollar to a donut, you can't , and your response will be ANYTHING BUT, a rational, logical, reasonable answer to that question.


How about it, Jeff???

Here's a picture of Bracket racer, Bill Dedman, "not racing"...

Yes, I'm driving the brown Mopar, and yes, I got there first.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

SOMEBODY must like it, from the amazing number of posts...

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Mr. Dedman, you remind me of Harry Markopolos: In an ocean of naysayers, YOU are correct.

Sleep easily, as one day, you WILL be vindicated on this issue.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

If you can tell me what is fair or equitable about a rule that treats different compititors, differently, please do


Rhetorical question as you stated it. The rules do treat competitors equitably. Each have the opportunity to cut a good light and run the dial. The one with the best light and closer to the dial wins 100% of the time.

The first red light rule treats the first-to-leave cars differently from the way it treats second-to-leave cars, if the first-to-leave red light.

So you believe the slower cars deserve a "mulligan"?